Sitka Top VS Moon Wood Top

[William2]

Does anyone think the moon wood top instrument offers a superior sound compared with a Sitka top? I have two of each and I can't say I hear a difference. But the instruments are different. I think I bought the Moon spruce tops because I liked their looks. At the time the two Mood spruce instruments were 14-fret dreadnoughts vs a 12-fret SD model and the 14-fret dreadnoughts have much more presence compared to the 12-fret model. Then this D-03R came along last year with its Sitka top and it is everything the Moon wood instruments and more. I'm trying to decide on my last instrument, and I think it will be a D-03 or D-05. I'm wondering if a top upgrade is worth it. I do like the looks of both wood types. Any thoughts on this? I know I said I was going to get an L model, but I decided to stick with a dreadnought.

[B0WIE]

Not I. For me, superior is relative. I actually preferred the sitka L03 I had to the Euro spruce one because the sitka was more clear and tight. However, someone who wanted a warmer, thicker sound would have liked the Euro spruce. These days I may may feel differently. I definitely didn't think one was better. I just thought they were different.

Moon spruce costs more because the people who harvest the lumber are very selective and follow good practices. It's generally well-chosen wood. It's not more expensive because it sounds better. You have to decide which suits your tastes more. I will say that sitka is a winner on dreads because it's dry and clear. Big tops can get muddy quick. You may or may not like a wood with more low overtones (moon).

[jasonchamb]

You do love your dreads. I've been thinking about an sd-40 I saw... but I'm trying hold out until the FVII gets here to ease the GAS.

[William2]

You do love your dreads. I've been thinking about an sd-40 I saw... but I'm trying hold out until the FVII gets here to ease the GAS.

Well, I'm  thinking I have the 40 series dreadnoughts and I love the D-03R maybe the best. Maybe I should get the D-03 and have both. I only need one 12-fretter and am happy with my SD-40R. My SD-40R was a special run and has 20 year old Sitka. It has a nice dark look. My D-40R is three years old and is turning a nice yellowish gold hue. I think based on BOWIE's comments I will stick with Sitka for the next instrument. I see Larrivee is now offering the SD model in the 03 series.  I do wonder what the sound difference is between this model and the 40 series SD.

[jasonchamb]

I do wish there was a store near me where I could just go try everything and hear and feel the difference.

The SD40 I'm trying not to buy has the Moon Spruce/Mahogany combo. I like the Mahogany on my L03 a lot.

[Rockysdad]

First off, I'd have to say generally speaking we all have our bias's, and we all *hear* differently.

In my opinion Moonspruce top seems much (for lack of better word) *cleaner* sounding than Sitka.

I like Moonspruce alot.

[jasonchamb]

There is video of one from the same run (I think) from Woodstock School of Music's site. It sounds very nice though I wish he would have done more fingerpicking. That one sold, but the internet is forever. https://youtu.be/S4FsdnWtjww

[William2]

There is video of one from the same run (I think) from Woodstock School of Music's site. It sounds very nice though I wish he would have done more fingerpicking. That one sold, but the internet is forever. https://youtu.be/S4FsdnWtjww

That's Dave Dalton (Woodstock School of Music). I buy my instruments from him. That video is from 4 years ago. After he met me, he started doing some fingerstyle. At least I think I'm the reason. I told him  strumming means nothing to me LOL. Here he is with a 12-fret I wanted, a D-40 special run. I'd rather have this than an SD. And he does some fingerstyle on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFNGZ-0rDwk

[jasonchamb]

I've seen a lot of his other vids, where he does fingerstyle. If you made that happen, you're doing him and his customers a favor. Sells more guitars, I'd wager.

[guitarman001]

They're just different - I notice a big difference in sound.
The mono spruce is "cleaner" yet at the same time has a really nice "quality" to it which I find hard to describe.
It's this really woody and pure thing, yeah... I can't describe it.
In addition, the trebles have this extra "fizz" which I find really livens things up in the trebles.
I think the moon spruce really suits the harder woods well. I have it over Bhilwara & EIR which are wet woods to start with, so it tames them a bit and adds character to the trebles.

Sitka has more overtones / reverb going on and is still amazing. It's a wetter sound.

All to my ears, at least!

[StringPicker6]

I personally love the pale color of moon wood as well as where it comes from, so I'm a bit childish in my reasoning.  I'm hoping that the color eventually fades into a creamy yellow as opposed to sitka which gets that golden honey color.   I'm no good at saying if one is better than the other, I think they both sound lovely and that's reasoning enough for me. 

[John Lee Pettimore]

Does anyone think the moon wood top instrument offers a superior sound compared with a Sitka top? I have two of each and I can't say I hear a difference. But the instruments are different. I think I bought the Moon wood tops because I liked their looks. At the time the two Mood wood instruments were 14-fret dreadnoughts vs a 12-fret SD model and the 14-fret dreadnoughts have much more presence compared to the 12-fret model. Then this D-03R came along last year with its Sitka top and it is everything the Moon wood instruments and more. I'm trying to decide on my last instrument and I think it will be a D-03 or D-05. I'm wondering if a top upgrade is worth it. I do like the looks of both wood types. Any thoughts o this? I know I said I was going to get an L model but I decided to stick with a dreadnought.

I'm a bit late to this thread.  But I agree with your assessment. I just recently bought my first Larrivee.  I was helped to make a very difficult choice between a sitka top and a moon spruce top.  Helped by the seller of the moon spruce.  The sitka has far more silking, grain and color character than the moon spruce in my sample size of two.  I was/am quite enamored with the moon spruce's blue abalone vine eye candy which is why I tried to buy it first.  But, the seller convinced me to move on.  Both guitars have a phenomenal voice though. The moon spruce was probably a "cleaner" tone while the sitka is definitely a more uniquely voiced guitar.  Unique beyond merely the tonal qualities of the topwood. In fact it is probably the most unique acoustic voice I've heard, and it is exceptionally responsive to fingerstyle, and thoroughly/deeply resonant and LOUD for an OM. I'm sure the totality of this guitar's tonewoods, bracing; including obvious asymmetrical dispersion of hand carving, impeccable joinery, etc. all contribute to it's remarkable voice.  My anticipation of how great it will sound ten years from now is off the charts!  So, yes it was very hard to choose between the two topwoods even though these two OM-05 guitars sounded nothing like one another.  In the end, the only way I could be more satisfied with the guitar I bought would be if I had the moon spruce too.   So yea, I get it

[William2]

Everyone has their preferences. For me, I like plain wood guitars. I've had several burst finishes and a couple of gloss instruments. But I just get tired of looking at them over time even though it was what hooked me initially. I like how my D-03R (Sitka) is darkening and how my D-40R (Moon Spruce) is turning a light yellow compared to my D-40 (Moon Spruce) which is still white. And whatever Larrivee uses for their satin instruments, I like how it hasn't shined up in areas like the Waterloo or Martin instruments. That is why I've listed my Martin DSS-17. It is a good instrument but I'm just tired of the Whiskey Sunset look. If it sells, I'll probably get an all mahogany Larrivee. I think I got rid of those Martin hogs because I got tired of that dark stain LOL.

[John Lee Pettimore]

Everyone has their preferences. For me, I like plain wood guitars. I've had several burst finishes and a couple of gloss instruments. But I just get tired of looking at them over time even though it was what hooked me initially. I like how my D-03R (Sitka) is darkening and how my D-40R (Moon Spruce) is turning a light yellow compared to my D-40 (Moon Spruce) which is still white. And whatever Larrivee uses for their satin instruments, I like how it hasn't shined up in areas like the Waterloo or Martin instruments. That is why I've listed my Martin DSS-17. It is a good instrument but I'm just tired of the Whiskey Sunset look. If it sells, I'll probably get an all mahogany Larrivee. I think I got rid of those Martin hogs because I got tired of that dark stain LOL.

Yea, I'm not a fan of "burst" type finishes.  However, My LD70 has what Alvarez calls "Daybreak" finish.  It is quite striking and pretty unique even for a Daybreak.  In most light it just looks 10+ years older than it is.  In certain lighting conditions, it resembles rays of sun through clouds at well, Daybreak. 

[William2]

Yea, I'm not a fan of "burst" type finishes.  However, My LD70 has what Alvarez calls "Daybreak" finish.  It is quite striking and pretty unique even for a Daybreak.  In most light it just looks 10+ years older than it is.  In certain lighting conditions, it resembles rays of sun through clouds at well, Daybreak. 

I've been curious about Alverez instruments. But being a lefty player, I see they only make lefty instruments in their lower end lines. That coupled with the fact that when look at them on Sweetwater I see that their Dreadnoughts are very heavy instruments (close to 5#). While I can take extra weight based on tone woods, I'd never get a mahogany backed instrument weighing close to 5#. My D-40 weighs just over 4# and the DSS-17 is 3# 14 oz according to Sweetwater. And every Martin Dreadnought I've owned was under 4#. I think this light weight is why both are so responsive for fingerstyle playing. I spent yesterday playing just the DSS-17. It is so powerful for fingerstyle I may keep it. I suppose I should have a burst instrument. But having moon spruce and Sitka instruments, I'm looking at an all-hog final instrument. Watching videos yesterday of the new Martin D-17 000 and D-17. I've decided these do sound better than the 15 series. One commentator said that the GE bracing is scalloped more than their regular scalloping. I wonder if this is true an if this accounts for its sound. And another commentator said that while he likes hogs, he prefers them in smaller bodied instruments. I wonder if many also think this way. I am fascinated by different bracings and finishes and their effects. I've always thought the Gibson J-35 was better than the J-45 (bracing difference). And yesterday I was watching a new Martin D-18 with the GE bracing and a satin finish, WOW!!! And then they had to say: "You know the sound. You want the sound" LOL!!!

[John Lee Pettimore]

I've been curious about Alverez instruments. But being a lefty player, I see they only make lefty instruments in their lower end lines. That coupled with the fact that when look at them on Sweetwater I see that their Dreadnoughts are very heavy instruments (close to 5#). While I can take extra weight based on tone woods, I'd never get a mahogany backed instrument weighing close to 5#. My D-40 weighs just over 4# and the DSS-17 is 3# 14 oz according to Sweetwater. And every Martin Dreadnought I've owned was under 4#. I think this light weight is why both are so responsive for fingerstyle playing. I spent yesterday playing just the DSS-17. It is so powerful for fingerstyle I may keep it. I suppose I should have a burst instrument. But having moon spruce and Sitka instruments, I'm looking at an all-hog final instrument. Watching videos yesterday of the new Martin D-17 000 and D-17. I've decided these do sound better than the 15 series. One commentator said that the GE bracing is scalloped more than their regular scalloping. I wonder if this is true an if this accounts for its sound. And another commentator said that while he likes hogs, he prefers them in smaller bodied instruments. I wonder if many also think this way. I am fascinated by different bracings and finishes and their effects. I've always thought the Gibson J-35 was better than the J-45 (bracing difference). And yesterday I was watching a new Martin D-18 with the GE bracing and a satin finish, WOW!!! And then they had to say: "You know the sound. You want the sound" LOL!!!

I think its a safe bet that an Alvarez all solid guitar will be heavier than its Martin analog.  Unless maybe its a Yairi.  In my experience, its also a safe bet that an Alvarez is far less likely to cause its owner to suffer from the poor quality control issues that Martin is infamous for.

 I sold my Martin in part because of the QC issues.  I was concerned about binding separation.  Some of the QC issues I had to threaten Martin with a lawsuit to induce them to honor their warranty for repair. They had to replace the bridge and re-set the neck on my 000-16GT.  I bought my first Larrivee with the proceeds of the sale of that guitar.  I am thrilled with that trade!

Back on the weight issue.  My LD70 weighs 4.5 lbs.  At least 0.25 lb is attributable to the LR Baggs HiFi system.  It is the heaviest acoustic guitar I own.  It is almost 0.5 lb heavier than my Alvarez MG75 which also has the Baggs HiFi. 

On the most important guitar issue, voice; my LD70 sounds as good or better than all of the D28s I've ever heard.  I've heard a broad range of them. I lived near Greune Hall and a short drive to Austin's live music scene for decades so I've heard a lot of them. I also hear an excellent old D28 almost every day I'm in church.

Honestly, there is no way I would pay 3x more for a Martin that is not capable of a more appealing voice than the three acoustics I now own.  In my experience, Martin's simply aren't worth it.  You could say Martin's business ethics have left an indelible mark on me. 

[BlueBowman]

I've been curious about Alverez instruments. But being a lefty player, I see they only make lefty instruments in their lower end lines. That coupled with the fact that when look at them on Sweetwater I see that their Dreadnoughts are very heavy instruments (close to 5#). While I can take extra weight based on tone woods, I'd never get a mahogany backed instrument weighing close to 5#. My D-40 weighs just over 4# and the DSS-17 is 3# 14 oz according to Sweetwater. And every Martin Dreadnought I've owned was under 4#. I think this light weight is why both are so responsive for fingerstyle playing. I spent yesterday playing just the DSS-17. It is so powerful for fingerstyle I may keep it. I suppose I should have a burst instrument. But having moon spruce and Sitka instruments, I'm looking at an all-hog final instrument. Watching videos yesterday of the new Martin D-17 000 and D-17. I've decided these do sound better than the 15 series. One commentator said that the GE bracing is scalloped more than their regular scalloping. I wonder if this is true an if this accounts for its sound. And another commentator said that while he likes hogs, he prefers them in smaller bodied instruments. I wonder if many also think this way. I am fascinated by different bracings and finishes and their effects. I've always thought the Gibson J-35 was better than the J-45 (bracing difference). And yesterday I was watching a new Martin D-18 with the GE bracing and a satin finish, WOW!!! And then they had to say: "You know the sound. You want the sound" LOL!!!

Overall weight of the guitar isn't, IME, always indicative of responsiveness. It's the top that really matters. I own light and stiff-topped guitars that sport dense back and side woods (a bolt-on neck can also add weight, though not always). These types of guitars can certainly be on the heavier side ( > 4 lbs ), but still sufficiently responsive. On the other hand, I do love a light guitar. I just took on a new build that weighs 3.5 lbs (000-12 sitka/koa). It's been a dream so far, and it's only a month old.

I can help you with the difference between Standard and GE bracing, as I've owned variations on these guitars from Martin. You can look up pics online, the Standard bracing has the scallop starting farther down the lower legs of the X brace, whereas GE bracing has that scallop starting closer to the X brace junction. Authentic bracing is similar to GE bracing, but is even more refined (lighter). Also, with each step towards the Authentics, you get a smaller bridge plate (lighter still). All these changes make a big difference in the response of the guitars.


Oh, and Moon versus Sitka Larrivee's? I've chosen sitka every time, but there are really good sounding moon spruce Larrivee's out there. I do love that pale color.
 

[B0WIE]

Overall weight of the guitar isn't, IME, always indicative of responsiveness. 

This has been my experience, somewhat. Between builders, it's fascinating how some really heavy guitars can sometimes sustain just as long as a super-light one built by someone else. Two roads to reach the same destination I suppose.
 I will say that weight can often affect the level of dynamic "pop" though. My lighter guitars usually have a greater attack at the front of the note while the heavier ones seem to absorb some of that energy and have a less snappy attack. A Collings, for instance (which is a heavy guitar), has this steady sustain that just keeps rolling right after the string is picked while some really light luthier builds have a really aggressive attack that's better suited to fingerstyle.

[BlueBowman]

This has been my experience, somewhat. Between builders, it's fascinating how some really heavy guitars can sometimes sustain just as long as a super-light one built by someone else. Two roads to reach the same destination I suppose.
 I will say that weight can often affect the level of dynamic "pop" though. My lighter guitars usually have a greater attack at the front of the note while the heavier ones seem to absorb some of that energy and have a less snappy attack. A Collings, for instance (which is a heavy guitar), has this steady sustain that just keeps rolling right after the string is picked while some really light luthier builds have a really aggressive attack that's better suited to fingerstyle.

I was thinking along the same lines after I posted my previous comment. I think of the spectrum like this:

ultra light build ----- somewhere in the middle (my happy place  ) ----- grossly overbuilt

I own guitars that skew middle-left and middle-right (as you point out, Collings is definitely here). The upfront "pop" is great with the lighter ones, but I've found if they're ultra light the note can almost rise too fast, leading to a somewhat edgier sound. I believe right hand attack can influence this tonal quality, too, and so these guitars work for some (softer fingerstyle players) and not for others (heavier handed).

I am a heavier right handed player (thumbpick/bare fingers), and so my Collings' guitars actually work brilliantly for a lot of what I do. That little extra wood in the top gives me something to push against -- a cliche, but true. The depth and sustain of guitars in this weight class (particularly 12-fret) can also be very pleasing.

I got put off ultra light guitars for a long time. The added string noise and quick rise/decay of the note wasn't exactly for me (in hindsight, I'm thinking those guitars were actually under built). I'm making my way back towards that side. The immediacy of the notes under your fingers, but still sufficient depth and sustain. And the added responsiveness is lovely. When done right, you can get the best of both worlds (not too heavy, not too light: just right). I just have to be a bit more aware of my right hand attack.

But like you say, both classes can work well, depending on the player.  I think I will always own both classes. We're so fortunate these days to choose among so many awesome guitar makers.

[John Lee Pettimore]

I was thinking along the same lines after I posted my previous comment. I think of the spectrum like this:

ultra light build ----- somewhere in the middle (my happy place  ) ----- grossly overbuilt

I own guitars that skew middle-left and middle-right (as you point out, Collings is definitely here). The upfront "pop" is great with the lighter ones, but I've found if they're ultra light the note can almost rise too fast, leading to a somewhat edgier sound. I believe right hand attack can influence this tonal quality, too, and so these guitars work for some (softer fingerstyle players) and not for others (heavier handed).

I am a heavier right handed player (thumbpick/bare fingers), and so my Collings' guitars actually work brilliantly for a lot of what I do. That little extra wood in the top gives me something to push against -- a cliche, but true. The depth and sustain of guitars in this weight class (particularly 12-fret) can also be very pleasing.

I got put off ultra light guitars for a long time. The added string noise and quick rise/decay of the note wasn't exactly for me (in hindsight, I'm thinking those guitars were actually under built). I'm making my way back towards that side. The immediacy of the notes under your fingers, but still sufficient depth and sustain. And the added responsiveness is lovely. When done right, you can get the best of both worlds (not too heavy, not too light: just right). I just have to be a bit more aware of my right hand attack.

But like you say, both classes can work well, depending on the player.  I think I will always own both classes. We're so fortunate these days to choose among so many awesome guitar makers.

Very well stated.  I've found that the three acoustics I currently own demonstrate ample sustain and immediate responsiveness.  I too play fingerstyle with thumbpick and bare fingers, flatpicking, and strumming. 

As a comparative analysis; I can confidently assert that my Larrivee is the lightest, most responsive, and most uniquely voiced of the three and is quite loud for an OM.  The LD70 certainly demonstrates immediate response, has a very pleasing loud voice, and by far the longest sustain. The MG75 is pretty much a perfect middle fit, in your scale, and demonstrates a beautifully soothing cedar/rosewood voice that can be coaxed to some uniquely pleasing distortion with a heavy pick attack.  It does have what I would term a broad voice range. Vague terms I know, but that's how voice descriptors run.  Everyone's ear is different. 
The 000-16GT I sold is about equal weight to the Larrivee, has an excellent classic Martin sitka/mahogany voice, also a perfect middle in my estimation if your scale.  It's new owner is as thrilled to have it as I am to have the Larrivee.

Lastly, I would point to voice variations attributable solely to string selection.  This is a verifiable phenomena. For example, my LD70 sounds awful to me with Ernie Ball EW PB 12-54. Which is a string that sounds great on the other three guitars mentioned.  However, that LD70 is amazingly voiced with Ernie's EW Bell Bronze 12-54, and it's voice becomes exceedingly Martin-esque with Martin Lifespan 2.0 PB 12-54.  Also, I recently installed Martin Eric Clapton PB 12-54 on my MG75 and they noticeably altered its voice from the Ernie EW PB 12-54 that it had worn since the original D'Addario set came off. 

I can't say the Clapton strings are better, just different, perhaps a slightly subdued tone in comparison to the EBs on that guitar.