Martin And Gibson And Taylor

Started by William2, July 11, 2024, 05:33:56 PM

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As a lefty who has returned to the guitar 6 years ago, I've never played the above brands. I am fascinated by their history and the number of people that hold them in such high regard. And I wonder if this is just people attracted to these brands because to their history and name or if there is something to these instruments. I have to say listening to the J-45, D-18, and D-28, I have my own views. I was never impressed by the J-45 in demos. However, I did see a video a year ago of a Gibson J-45 made by their custom shop and it blew me away compared to what I've heard in the past. And I do find it fascinating listening to the various Martin flagship models and the changes they have gone through over the years. I guess I just never liked the Taylor sound and think many of their models are way overpriced.
I do find their V class bracing system very interesting. I was thinking of getting one but couldn't because of the sound. I wonder if it is their neck attachment system that gives Taylor's (and Furch) that tone in the trebles I just hate. I guess if I had to rate them as a listener, I'd say Martin, Gibson and then Taylor. But the quality control issues I read about with Martin and Gibson just scares me off. Anyone here play these models and have any thoughts on them?

Nope, I've got a Larrivée, and another Larrivée, and then another couple of Larrivée's after that.

All in different woods.  I'm a happy camper. :wink:
Herman.

L-10, L-03FM, OM-05
 Forum VI, & "others"

I inherited an old Gibson and I like their guitars because they have great midrange qualities. Martins sound boomy to me, and I really hate excessive bass since I record. Taylor is the king of marketing. They know how to sell guitars to people who already own guitars by constantly "improving" (lol) the bracing and offering many woods. But, I dislike the signature treble-strong tone.

Among factory-made guitars, I think Larrivee are the best. Balanced, articulate tone and excellent construction. No gimmicks.

William, here is a rather long answer to your question.

While I don't own any of the three guitars you referenced, I do have two standard series Martins including my first, a 1976 D35, purchased new in early 1977 and a custom 000 built in 2015. None of my three Martins are going anywhere. If I was buying a new Martin, I would have the M-36 or a Satin finish D-18/28 series guitar on my short list.

Over the years, I've read about disgruntled Martin owners regarding binding issues but I've only ever had that problem with my D35 (lower bout and neck binding) that occurred about 30 years ago and was promptly corrected under warranty with no further problems. The other two guitars built in 2006 and 2015 are both fine. Martin's X bracing coupled with their Dreadnought and OM bodies are often copied by others. I don't know anything about Taylor's V bracing but I'm sure it's well designed and innovative. My son has three Taylor's and we swap guitars all the time.

When I hear the name Gibson, I first think of electric Les Paul models,mandolins and Gordon Lightfoot's iconic 12 string B-45. Orville Gibson founded his company in Kalamazoo, MI in 1902 through a partnership with some local businessmen. His involvement with the company only lasted a couple of years and he died in 1918. My concern about Gibson is the fact that ownership and control of the company has changed hands multiple times over the years. The same thing has occurred with Fender and Guild and I think that both quality and consistency take a hit when that happens.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have four Larrivees including three 03 series acoustics and a Baker T Pro. I also have a slightly modified 00-24 on order. What's interesting to note is that I bought two of my three acoustic Larrivees without playing them first. The fact that at least one member of the Larrivee family has had their hands on each of my guitars before or during the construction process has a huge impact on my confidence level. In my view, nobody chooses the wood used, does a satin finish better or builds an L body and a Venetian cutaway better than Larrivee.

Larrivee is as close to a boutique builder that a major guitar company can get to for us mere mortals.



Thanks for your reply, Teh. Your two Martins qualify as special Martin's. I wasn't aware Mr. Gibson was only affiliated with his company for such a short time. I'll have to catch up with you. I only have 3 Larrivee's LOL. I think I went with Larrivee based on listening to videos. After I got my first one, I knew it was a keeper. When I've watched video comparisons of Martin vs Gibson, I always preferred the Martin. I think both companies can make great instruments in their custom departments but not sure about their mass-produced instruments. I do however have an affection for the Martin 15 series. I'm sorry I sold my D-15. I agree with Mr. BOWIE and his comments about a Larrivee guitars. I do see an L instrument in my future.

I do find their V class bracing system very interesting. I was thinking of getting one but couldn't because of the sound. I wonder if it is their neck attachment system that gives Taylor's (and Furch) that tone in the trebles I just hate. I guess if I had to rate them as a listener, I'd say Martin, Gibson and then Taylor. But the quality control issues I read about with Martin and Gibson just scares me off. Anyone here play these models and have any thoughts on them?

I did try the Taylor's V class when they first came out and nearly bought one. One of the selling points at the time they first came out was that the intonation was much better playing up the fretboard than the older bracing. To my surprise that was true. That plus the extra sustain I experienced made me open to a new Taylor GC but having tried out a few of their 12 fret models I was less impressed with how Taylor designed so much more treble in their tone negating all the midrange and bass I was hoping to hear from the 12 fret bridge placement. Taylor's brightness seems to me to be a signature corporate choice. The neck on my hog-top Taylor 322 is a bolt on and that guitar is very much the opposite of "bright."

I've had much less luck with Martins. I can recall only one that I liked, but all the rest were "meh." But it's possible my ear was much less "educated" back then, I dunno.
Larrivee OO-05 • Larrivee OOV-03 SS • Larrivee OO-44  • Taylor 322ce • Strat • Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/jpmist

I'm a Larrivee guy all the way, but if you want the true J45 sound, when you find the right one there is nothing else like it.  I've played several that were just amazing.  But I'd not want that dry, airy tone all the time.  To my ear, my Larrivee doesn't really do one thing exceptionally well that stands out (like a J45 does), but it does a number of things well and sounds great in all settings.  Larrivee makes one of the most versatile guitars on the market IMO.

The three big brands to me are like BMW and Mercedes cars.  High quality, but everybody buys them because their legend is that they are "the best", and that's what you buy when you can afford "the best". 

I see Larrivee more as a Bentley or a Lotus or Alfa Romeo.  People who know, "know".  And for those who aren't familiar with Larrivee, I love their reaction when they play one.   :nice guitar:
Larrivee P-03
Epiphone USA Texan
Larrivee 00-40R Moonwood top

I did try the Taylor's V class when they first came out and nearly bought one. One of the selling points at the time they first came out was that the intonation was much better playing up the fretboard than the older bracing. To my surprise that was true. That plus the extra sustain I experienced made me open to a new Taylor GC but having tried out a few of their 12 fret models I was less impressed with how Taylor designed so much more treble in their tone negating all the midrange and bass I was hoping to hear from the 12 fret bridge placement. Taylor's brightness seems to me to be a signature corporate choice. The neck on my hog-top Taylor 322 is a bolt on and that guitar is very much the opposite of "bright."

I've had much less luck with Martins. I can recall only one that I liked, but all the rest were "meh." But it's possible my ear was much less "educated" back then, I dunno.

This is interesting. So, the hype about longer sustains and better intonation is something you experienced. I have often thought Taylor's were best for fingerstyle playing regardless of instrument size. I've never liked those instruments strummed in demos. Three years ago, I almost bought a 322. I think it was during the pandemic and I'd have to wait months for one, so I didn't Now I see that they have replaced that blackwood back with mahogany. I think that blackwood back gave the instrument the power I experienced listening to it. And I was becoming more interested in larger body instruments. I almost bought one it again recently with my eye on an American Dream GP. But I realized this might be just a passing fancy and I didn't think the AD-27 sounded as good as the Martin D-15. I just wonder if it is the bolt on neck that gives the Taylor that sound. Or is it a characteristic of the V bracing system.  would like to play a Taylor to experience the neck I hear about

Quote from: Silence Dogood on July 12, 2024, 09:35:48 AMI'm a Larrivee guy all the way, but if you want the true J45 sound, when you find the right one there is nothing else like it.  I've played several that were just amazing.  But I'd not want that dry, airy tone all the time.  To my ear, my Larrivee doesn't really do one thing exceptionally well that stands out (like a J45 does), but it does a number of things well and sounds great in all settings.  Larrivee makes one of the most versatile guitars on the market IMO.

This is interesting regarding the Gibson J-45. I've seen on AGF comments like you have to find the right one. As a lefty I don't have that option. I think a year ago I saw a video review on Alamo Music of a J-45 made in their custom shop. It blew me away. I wonder if this is the sound certain people associate with that instrument as opposed to the mass-produced J-45 with that ugly pickup system. The reviewed model had the Adi top, hide glue, everything they did back in the day.

Quote from: StringPicker6 on July 12, 2024, 10:20:39 AMThe three big brands to me are like BMW and Mercedes cars.  High quality, but everybody buys them because their legend is that they are "the best", and that's what you buy when you can afford "the best". 

I see Larrivee more as a Bentley or a Lotus or Alfa Romeo.  People who know, "know".  And for those who aren't familiar with Larrivee, I love their reaction when they play one.   :nice guitar:

Totally agree!

I have a Taylor 214 ce Plus. I purchased it new (blemished) about 2 years ago because I always wanted a Taylor and needed a new acoustic for recording my record. To me the Taylor sounds fine, like a guitar, but I think I've finally outgrown it. I think they are overpriced compared to what I'm getting from Larrivée. All that marketing costs money.

I had a Martin HD-28 from May 2023 to Feb 2024. Beautiul guitar, smelled great and it sounded great, a little bassy, but the more I played it the more it felt too big and uncomfortable for me.

I have a 00-40 on order and am looking forward to the chance to compare.
Larrivée 00-40
Taylor 214ce Plus
Eastman MD315 Mandolin


This is interesting. So, the hype about longer sustains and better intonation is something you experienced. I have often thought Taylor's were best for fingerstyle playing regardless of instrument size. I've never liked those instruments strummed in demos. Three years ago, I almost bought a 322. I think it was during the pandemic and I'd have to wait months for one, so I didn't Now I see that they have replaced that blackwood back with mahogany. ------  I just wonder if it is the bolt on neck that gives the Taylor that sound. Or is it a characteristic of the V bracing system.  would like to play a Taylor to experience the neck I hear about


I dunno, what little I know about guitar construction makes me skeptical about the bolt-on making a difference in tone. It's a pretty dense part of the guitar that doesn't vibrate much on it's own. What it might do is make the tuning more stable as my 322 stays in tune a whole lot better than any of my Larrivee's.

I blame Taylor's brightness on their bracing more than the V or whatever they did on my older 322. At one point I had a Taylor 12 fret at the same time I had a Larrivee 12 fret and playing back to back it was clear that they Taylor brightened up the 12 fret so much that it might as well have been a 14 fret. Tsk, tsk.

Taylor abandoned the blackwood for the 300 series if I recall right, but they do offer it on an 800 series which is more than I'd pay. The Blackwood B/S really rescues the mahogany top for me in that I get more resonance than I would get from an all hog guitar. I think. The 322 has been in the doghouse for some time now, but I took it out of it's case recently and really enjoy it now. Also, it has something I've never noticed on my Larrivee's which has been described as a compressed tone. Somehow the body levels out the loud and soft notes to a middle range which my Larrivees simply don't do. One day I was looking at a waveform file of the 322 on an audio editor and all the highs and lows were visibly reigned in so to speak. I could easily tell the difference between a Larrivee OO track and the 322 just by looking at the waveforms . . .
Larrivee OO-05 • Larrivee OOV-03 SS • Larrivee OO-44  • Taylor 322ce • Strat • Soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/jpmist

FWIW, here is my guitar tone quest:  Before I switched to Larrivee Guitars, I was a Martin guy. I always wanted a D-35 but when I could afford my first one in the early '80s there wasn't any available locally so I settled on a HD-28. Over time I found rosewood was too boomy for my tastes and thought I'd get a D-18. By then it was the early '90s and Martin just started their GOM series.
In 1991, their Guitar of the Month Series came out with a limited run D3-18, a D18 with a mahogany 3 piece back and all pre-war specs. It was a killer guitar. I then in the late '90s got an OM-21 because I wanted a fingerstyle guitar. I traded my old 1974 Gibson Hummingbird for it. The Gibson was really nice but the truss rod was maxed out.
Then I played my first Larrivee, a LV-05 and over time traded out all my Martins for what I have now. IMO, Martin's golden age was late '80s to mid '90s. Frankly the newer Martins don't hold a candle to them. The QC isn't up to snuff, the wood selection isn't as good, I find the gold embossed CF Martin replacing the older decal cheesy and I hear it's a crapshoot with the body bindings popping up. But that's just me. As for Gibson, anything from the old Kalamazoo factory is nice, but now they seem extremely overpriced for what you get and QC seems inconsistent from guitar to guitar. Few sound incredible while others are meh. My only regret is trading away my D3-18. Being 33 years old now, it probably sounds phenomenal now.

The tone quest journey is different for everyone. But the GAS Syndrone victimizes us all.
Knowledge is power, so be as informed as you can. Here is an interesting website to achieve this:  https://guitarhq.com/
The only problem with it, is that it doesn't have a Larrivee Section

Cheers! Koamon
Larrivee LC-10 Koa  LR Baggs Ibeam dual-source/mic
Larrivee DV-10 Koa  LR Baggs LR Baggs Anthem
Composite Acoustics Cargo  LR Baggs Element/mic
UnclRob's Parts Telecaster Larrivee bridge & Firebird neck pu
2012 PRS Se Angelus Standard  LR Baggs Imix



The tone quest journey is different for everyone. But the GAS Syndrone victimizes us all.
Knowledge is power, so be as informed as you can. Here is an interesting website to achieve this:  https://guitarhq.com/


Cheers! Koamon

That's a great quote and thanks for the link. I forgot who it was. but a month or so ago I saw an interview and the and interviewee thought Larrivee would be an in-demand vintage guitar in the next 20 years. Until 7 years ago and playing lefty, I had never played a steel string acoustic. I knew the brands by name but that was all. Having tried several brands, I finally ended up with Larrivee as my favorite. I also have been put off by Martin's quality issues. I can't believe Chris would let a legendary name like that have these issues. In fact, the only Marin guitars that have attracted me are the 15 and 17 series.

[/quote]

I've owned five Martins of various series built from about 2002 to 2020.  No problems with any of them, though I currently own just two.  There are many models and most sound nice If you like the general Martin sound.

I've never owned a Gibson or Taylor.  I've also owned five Larrivees (four currently).  No problems with any of them either except for a tiny bit of finish deterioration on an early 2000s OM-05.

I've liked all of the Martins and Larrivees I've owned, and they all sounded good in their own way.  I do think the Larrivees actions are typically set-up a bit lower than Martins (and more to my preference).

But I've bought guitars from both makers in the last month or so.
OM-05, L-03WL, 000-40R, L-09

Since I've been focusing on steel string acoustic I'd say I lean towards Gibson of those three brands.  They have some really iconic models...Dove, Hummingbird, SJ-200, J-185, J45...interesting colours, classic neck binding.

I've picked up and played a couple Gibsons that I've really liked, but I've come across a lot with noticable finish blemishes, or poor, gunky looking nut work...paint spatter showing on burst finishes.  If I was really prepared to spend the money on a Hummingbird or SJ200, I'd go through the the trouble to source out the right one.  I'm the type of player that maybe there's a couple times a year when things are going well enough I could spend the money on one of those models, but just the same there's a couple times a year when there's some type of home repair that pops up and I think, man, I don't think I need this 5 grand guitar.  That aside, the other thing holding me back is the bridge spacing being a little more narrow which is good for strumming, not as good for fingerstyle...for me anyways.  Lastly, I tend to play my acoustic classical position on my left leg, and with a dread or jumbo, its rather awkward wrestling it around...looks kind of funny playing a dread that way too.  So for me a Gibson is a good strummer, but I'm not sure I'd spend that kind of money for a purpose built strummer when I play mostly fingerstyle.

I've taken an interest in Martin OM guitars recently because body isn't as deep as my Larrivee which makes it a little easier to play for extended periods of time...and they got the whole original OM design thing.  I played several OM-18s and I thought they were definately not worth the money.  OM-28 was really nice I'm just not sure I'd want to have body binding issues and give myself a 4 thousand dollar headache over it.  It sounded good, although I didn't spend too much time with it.

Taylor Grand Auditorium design is really nice but I think they're models are overpriced.  I also think the way the neck joins the body is good for avoiding neck resets but it had to be faster, cheaper and easier to build guitars that way so why are they still jamming me on the price?

For me, Larrivee is kind of like the Porsche of the guitar world.  They have the production models and if you wish you can get one custom specified.  The price is reasonable and they don't ram the electronics down your throat like Gibson and Taylor.  Oh yeah, and the endpin is already enlarged so you can add your own pickup system, should the mood strike you without an invasive reaming.

I do notice Larrivee fans tend to be rather enthusiastic about Larrivee and it grinds my gears that fanboys of the other brands always tend so say their Gibson or Martin sounds better than any Larrivee.  I'm still trying to understand what it means when one says one guitar "blows the other out of the water."

Larrivee original designs and bracing, quality of materials and workmanship has a good brand image and if you have one and like to play guitar, it won't be the guitar that holds you back.


Quote from: Sandstorm on August 11, 2024, 01:01:54 PMSince I've been focusing on steel string acoustic I'd say I lean towards Gibson of those three brands.  They have some really iconic models...Dove, Hummingbird, SJ-200, J-185, J45...interesting colours, classic neck binding.

I've picked up and played a couple Gibsons that I've really liked, but I've come across a lot with noticable finish blemishes, or poor, gunky looking nut work...paint spatter showing on burst finishes.  If I was really prepared to spend the money on a Hummingbird or SJ200, I'd go through the the trouble to source out the right one.  I'm the type of player that maybe there's a couple times a year when things are going well enough I could spend the money on one of those models, but just the same there's a couple times a year when there's some type of home repair that pops up and I think, man, I don't think I need this 5 grand guitar.  That aside, the other thing holding me back is the bridge spacing being a little more narrow which is good for strumming, not as good for fingerstyle...for me anyways.  Lastly, I tend to play my acoustic classical position on my left leg, and with a dread or jumbo, its rather awkward wrestling it around...looks kind of funny playing a dread that way too.  So for me a Gibson is a good strummer, but I'm not sure I'd spend that kind of money for a purpose built strummer when I play mostly fingerstyle.

I've taken an interest in Martin OM guitars recently because body isn't as deep as my Larrivee which makes it a little easier to play for extended periods of time...and they got the whole original OM design thing.  I played several OM-18s and I thought they were definately not worth the money.  OM-28 was really nice I'm just not sure I'd want to have body binding issues and give myself a 4 thousand dollar headache over it.  It sounded good, although I didn't spend too much time with it.

Taylor Grand Auditorium design is really nice but I think they're models are overpriced.  I also think the way the neck joins the body is good for avoiding neck resets but it had to be faster, cheaper and easier to build guitars that way so why are they still jamming me on the price?

For me, Larrivee is kind of like the Porsche of the guitar world.  They have the production models and if you wish you can get one custom specified.  The price is reasonable and they don't ram the electronics down your throat like Gibson and Taylor.  Oh yeah, and the endpin is already enlarged so you can add your own pickup system, should the mood strike you without an invasive reaming.

I do notice Larrivee fans tend to be rather enthusiastic about Larrivee and it grinds my gears that fanboys of the other brands always tend so say their Gibson or Martin sounds better than any Larrivee.  I'm still trying to understand what it means when one says one guitar "blows the other out of the water."

Larrivee original designs and bracing, quality of materials and workmanship has a good brand image and if you have one and like to play guitar, it won't be the guitar that holds you back.



I have to agree with everything you say here. For me however, I would put Marin over Gibson any day. I've been listening to Gibson videos the last couple of weeks trying to appreciate what their fans hear. I'm sorry but I just don't hear it. And I've seen many comments on their quality and trying to find a nice sounding one. The Taylors just don't sound good strummed but do work for fingerstyle. The Martin flagship models like the 18 and 28, while they sound good, I don't think they sound better than a Larrivee. Larrivee offers much better quality and appointments for the price. I do think the Martin line has a niche I like in the 15 and 17 series. I love their mahogany instruments. I recently purchased a 000-15SM. I can't believe how much better it sounds in person compared with the videos I've watched. And it doesn't have bindings so no chance of the binding issue LOL. I'm sorry I sold my Martin DSS-17. That series competes with Waterloo at a much lower price point. Too bad Martin has eliminated its 00 sized 17 series instruments. I used to own a Waterloo WL-12. And comparing that instrument on videos, it blows away anything I've compared it to trying to replicate that old time sound especially beat the Gibson L-00 models.

I was in a store this weekend and tried a custom shop OM18... I've put a downpayment on it but it means I'd have to trade a few Larrivee's. I feel like a traitor. It had that punchy bass which was really great. It did feel slightly harder to play than Larrivee and the mids / trebles weren't as shiny.

I just got home and played my OM05. So it doesn't have the same punch in the bass but it truly is balanced and sounds and plays fantastic and now I'm having second thoughts as I could get two amazing Larrivee's for the price of one Martin (I'd be trading the L05 which I'm growing to like more and more, and an excess OM03 which I really shouldn't have bought but I liked the sunburst).

Choices are the Martin OM18 CS.
Or 12 fret Larrivee, or OM09.
TBH I would like them all lol...
Larrivee OM-02
Larrivee P-03
Larrivee OM-03BH
Larrivee OM-05
Larrivee L-05

Isn't the OM50 supposed to be like the Martin CS, with forward shifted bracing and at least some scalloping? I really wish I could try one. I just know that I've always preferred the more balanced Larrivee's which have a real hi-fi tone to them which is sonic nirvana to my ears. I have my OM05 in my hand now and it's hands down my favourite, just a stellar guitar all round.


--> well tomorrow I may change my mind but tonight I sat and recorded all my Larrivee's and compared to the (expensive!) Martin custom shops I played. The martins definitely have a seductive bass, it's punchy and really nice to get out of an OM body. It is probably the better strummer. My Larrivee's all have more harmonic complexity when played fingerstyle. It's a very addictive sound and when I got back and put mine in my hands it felt like home. I might be passing on the Martin. But it did also highlight that I do prefer OM bodies and also like 12 frets, both for the emphasis more on those thrumming mid resonances.
Larrivee OM-02
Larrivee P-03
Larrivee OM-03BH
Larrivee OM-05
Larrivee L-05

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