Wbic/em Shorts Refund Problems....

[unclrob]

fitness1 Well I'm glad you Finnally got your money back.As a dealer things like this hurts us all. :)  

[1954Gold]

I chose EM Shorts.. UPS got it to me (Newfoundland, Canada!!!) in 6 business days via ground..

I am amazed that you found it more economical to buy a Canadian made guitar in the US and have it re exported back to you...the wonders of NAFTA, I guess. Also amazed UPS got it safely to Newfoundland...now I see why you were concerned about the temperature!

[riffdaddy]

Hello all. My name is Nathan, and I work at Wichita Band. I'm kind of sticking my neck out by posting here, largely because I'm not completely sure that The Powers That Be at the shop particularly want one of the employees getting involved in this debate. However, my name has been brought up a few times here, and I don't want to stay silent on this matter.

First off, let me say that the bosses can be a little slow to take care of refunds. They have a lot of paperwork to deal with and not enough hours in the day to handle it all in a timely fashion. Should their priorities be a little different? Probably so (at least in my opinion). However, keep in mind that (1) they do get refunds processed within 30 days, which is within the timeframe allowed by both the government and credit card companies; and (2) our shop does not keep money after merchandise has been returned. Every once in a while a customer gets the idea that since their refund hasn't been processed yet, we have no intention of refunding their money. This obviously isn't the case. The bottom line here is that the bosses are slow to handle certain paperwork. They aren't aiming to make anyone feel cheated; they just get overwhelmed with the volume of work that needs to be done on a daily basis.

Unfortunately I was not involved in Todd's return, so I can't really provide much insight into what went wrong. In Lance's situation, however, I will accept responsibility for a great deal of the communication failure. I spoke to Lance on the phone yesterday (Thursday) evening shortly before closing time, and today I took the opportunity to investigate a little further into several of his complaints (BTW Lance, I attempted to call you today but received no answer and no answering machine--please email me).

Part of the problem stems from the fact that UPS denied the damage claim. This has only happened one other time in the two-plus years that I have been at the store. I was unable to file the paperwork for the refund until the merchandise had returned to the store, simply because I must verify that the merchandise returned is the same merchandise that was sent (although that was obviously an unlikely possibility in this case, I still have to cover my own butt on this part of the deal). I was unable to make any sort of consistent communication with anybody at UPS who had any knowledge of the situation. In retrospect, I clearly should have exerted more effort into making contact with UPS and getting them to clarify how and when the package would be returned to us, as this would have allowed me to provide a more accurate time frame on the refund.

To compound the problem, the guitar returned to the store on the day I happened to be in the hospital (I suffer from Crohn's disease, and part of my treatment is receiving infusions four or five times a year). I failed to leave adequate instructions with my co-workers as to how to handle the situation when the guitar was returned. Furthermore, I didn't think to check with the shipping department to see if the guitar had arrived when I returned the next day. I won't make any excuses about being too busy or not having enough time--I just dropped the ball. As for the unreturned phone calls, I can't pinpoint exactly where the communication failure occurred here. I was in and out of the shop for about a week after the infusion dealing with some of the side effects of the treatment, and part of the problem may have been that your phone calls came when I was at home instead of at work. Whether the messages were put in the wrong box, given to someone else who didn't have the time or the knowledge of the situation to deal with them, or simply vanished into thin air remains a mystery to me. I wish I had a more satisfactory answer for this, but I don't.

ms960 and slamk, I can't seem to pinpoint exactly who either of you are, so I really can't comment on the situations involving either of your refunds. I don't know if there were any particular circumstances that complicated your situations. If the refunds came after about four weeks, I would guess that your paperwork was processed in the normal (albeit somewhat slow) timeframe.

To clarify one other misunderstanding, it seems that some people may have gotten the idea that the bosses don't take phone calls from irate customers. This is partially true, but not wholly inclusive of the reality of the situation--they don't take phone calls from anybody. They have too many other responsibilities. Most places of business work in this manner, so don't take it personally.

I'll stick around this forum for the next week or so to answer any questions. Paul, let me know how the K&K is working out for you. I'm loving mine.

[sc morris]

nathan....

very good of you to chime in here.  yes, your name does get thrown around here from time to time.  i have also seen your name on the Taylor Forum, as well as some others.  it seems you're a bit of a "guitar shop celebrity"!!  like i said earlier, you guys were good to me when you sold me that Blackwood last summer.  and it's good to hear your side of the story.  overall, there are lots of people really pleased with you guys from what i can see on these forums.  i'm also glad the whole thing is over between you guys and "fitness1".  he got his money back, you guys got the guitar back....end of story.  no need to go on and on about the ordeal.  there are always some risks involved when purchasing sight unseen. but it seems to work out more times than it doesn't.  

i'm sorry to hear about the Crohn's issue.  i have a good friend who deals with this disease and some of the stuff she goes through is not pretty. i'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with the same things.  

-caleb morris

[orsino]

I really have no business weighing in on any of the problems that are occuring with forumites and E.M. Shorts. But I would like to say that I bought a Gibson from Nathan last year and the communication was good and the guitar was stellar. Nathan kept me informed throughout the whole process and alleviated my nervousness of buying a guitar sight unseen. I can't speak about E.M. Shorts as a whole, but I sure had a good experience with Nathan. I'm posting this as I felt his post above was in the same spirit of all of my dealings with him. Forthright and professional.
Nathan, there are a lot of great things posted on all the forums about E.M. Shorts, but IMO if your shop would just communicate more during the refund process this would lessen folks' fear. I think we have all come to be slow to build our trust with retailers. My dealings with you were excellent. But, I sure can't say that with the majority of businesses I patronize. It's a shame to see E.M. Shorts get a bad rep for being slow to respond when people's money is in limbo. Sure you guys are going to do the right thing, but a little more assurance of that fact during the process would serve the customer better.
Ok that's much more than $.02 worth of my opinion. I'd buy a guitar from Nathan again in a heartbeat, regardless of E.M. Shorts' practices.

[sevenup]

Nathan, thanks for taking the time to be available for us to be avare more on how each shop works.  People, including me, forget that although the salespersons responsibility to the customer is first and foremost, those people still have their personal problems to deal with on daily basis. The service industry hours certainly make it difficult to get to get things done.

[Imapickn]

Ahhhh communication..... what a wonderful thing.. ;)
Don

[fitness1]

Hey Nathan,
  it was really good of you to post here......I obviously had nothing but praise for you, but was not real happy with this last transaction.  I felt like I was being treated like the whole thing was my fault by the owners/salesman and I was just going to have to wait as long as they deemed necessary to get my money back.  The whole thing would have been different if I would have just decided that I didn't want it, but there was more wrong with the "blem" than I was told.
  I run a business too, and to me, it doesn't matter how much I have to do, if there is something like my situation going on, I take care of it NOW......that person on the other end of the stick has emotions and I want to keep them in my good graces.  I don't feel like that was even considered here.  
  WBIC would do well to reconsider the 30 day thing, or, if they continue, at least post it on the website or on the sales receipt in BIG letters so you expect that they are going to take their sweet time with your money
   In contrast, I recently picked up a keyboard from ZZounds.....I hooked it into my system to do some recording and there was way more line noise than I expected.  I went through the return authorization process and had my refund in less than 48 hours after they received the keyboard back.  I am guessing that ZZounds processes a lot more business than WBIC.......so how do they do it so fast?  I am guessing because they know what I know.......Gary and company should really give this some consideration.

[1954Gold]

Hello all. My name is Nathan, and I work at Wichita Band. I'm kind of sticking my neck out by posting here..

Hi Nathan... I am glad you joined this discussion. Other dealers post here regularly, and this thread affects EM, so there is no reason why you shouldn't.  I purchased an 03 R7 and a D-03 thru Chet and I reiterate that price and delivery for both was superb. The EM luthier was extremely helpful and spent alot of time with me on the phone. I did have the D-03 bridge slotted/ramped and action lowered by a local luthier, though. I posted my positive experience with EM here and on the Les Paul Forum where there is overwhelming concurrance here in the US and overseas. My 2 cents: EM needs to work on its website which sorely needs updating and email responsiveness...with both purchases I had to nudge things along! Also, priovide other options than UPS as your preferred shipper. Realize that EM is somewhat laid back, but pro-active communication can help avoid misunderstandings. Anyway, I will probably be coming back at you in the Spring for a Martin D-15 or a rosewood Larrivee... blems OK!!!!!!!!

[Imapickn]

IMHO.... A dealer who wants to have a "web presence" and draw business from that venue, and yet does not/ can not, handle the increase in business,.....( "they just get overwhelmed with the volume of work that needs to be done on a daily basis.").... Has a very poor business plan and sense of business.  If they can not offer the same high quality of service that others can, and do, (at lower prices, I might add) then they should not be surprised when they don't get the increase in business that they wanted... Which might be a good thing, because it appears that they are having trouble handling the business that they DO have.  
 Nothing wrong with having a local "Mom and Pop" store that serves it's community. And allows the folks who work there to keep up with the volume of business that they are doing.. But just throwing up a web page without having any plan on how to handle an increase
in the volume of business, both good and bad, is just, well.......  a bad idea. You wind up looking like you can't handle customers in the mannor that they have come to,rightfully, expect. Not if you want to be competitive
 30 days for a refund...... not in this day and age..
  Poor communication with an unhappy customer...... not a smart thing to do.
I have bought 3 Larrivees.... and after checking out the prices at EM Shorts.. I did not buy them there. Because they were a bit high on price.  
 And now, even if they were in line with what I was willing to pay, I would probably NOT buy from them. I would not take a chance on the hassle, IF I had a problem....
  But, I don't have to.... not today.. There are too many other good  sources for my guitars, that I know I can trust to take good care of me..
 Just my 2 cents worth.. Don :)
 

[dhill]

Bully for Nathan for taking the time to explain EM Shorts policy, and for being stand-up enough to admit dropping the ball on occasion. It happens to all of us. I have purchased two Larrivees from Nathan in the past, and have received excellent service from him all around. I also apologized to Nathan the other day when I ordered a guitar from one of his colleagues! I had a window of perceived opportunity to order a special guitar, and hopped on it one day when Nathan was out. I felt bad about this, but Nathan was very gracious, and went so far as to give me his personal email to reach him at any time were he not available at the shop. When said guitar arrived, even though it wasn't his sale, Nathan took the time to check the guitar out, and to pass along his thumb's up. I wouldn't hesitate to do business with Nathan and EM Shorts again. And I'm sure I will do so in the future. But people should also remember EM Shorts return policy, which holds for most retailers that I'm aware of: order a guitar that is in stock with them, and you will get a very generous 5-day return policy, no questions asked. If you order a guitar with them that they themselves have to order from the manufacturer, that is your guitar and cannot be returned (obviously unless there are defect issues). To me this is very fair and sensible policy. But would I hold up a legitemate return for up to 30 days and risk allienating a a current and hopefully repeat customer? Probably not. If I did, I would  perhaps deserve to lose that customer, and take heat on the forums. But I suspect that if everyone that had a positive experience with EM Shorts chimed in here with everyone that didn't, we would see a huge group of pretty happy guitarists. Thanks for admitting that mistakes happen, Nathan, and keep up the good work.

[atlantic]

Nathan:

I gigged out acoustically last night for the third time since I received the Larrivee.  The K&K is wonderful. NO piezo quack - just a nice "acoustic" sound (BTW I plug into a Fishman Pro EQ II).  Very warm and balanced.  I couldn't be happier with it. The guitar is THE bomb.  Thanks for the great service.


1954Gold:

It also amazed me that it was significantly cheaper to buy a CDN made guitar in the USA.  But it wasn't close - I saved about $300.  BTW I'm a Les Paul owner as well ('82 Deluxe - purchased new in '83).

[1954Gold]

1954Gold: it was significantly cheaper to buy a CDN made guitar in the USA.  But it wasn't close - I saved about $300.  BTW I'm a Les Paul owner as well ('82 Deluxe - purchased new in '83).

ATLANTIC: Glad to see you are also in the Les Paul brotherhood... you should drop in on us at the Les Paul Forum.. thread going on regarding Canadian dealers gouging Gibson prices in Canada. Take is that it is cheaper to buy in the US and bring it in to Canada outside official Gibson distribution channels. Looks like the Canadian dealer does not have to honor the Gibson warranty in such a "grey" market instrument, but $300 is a nice chunk of cash, so I guess free trade works for the consumer. I had a 70 Deluxe Goldtop I got when I graduated high school in 71. Sold it in college and I wish I had it back... lots of folks trash Norlin era Les Pauls (1968-1986), but I wish I had my ole mini-hum, pancake Deluxe again. Very happy with my R7, all in all superior guitar than the Deluxe. I love Larrivee quality.. sell direct to retailer (no distributor), cheap loonie, no duties cause of NAFTA, and since manufacturing is labor intensive, probably some financial incentive from provinicial government and Ottawa. Larrivee is my best find this year after Tech21's Trademark 10 practice amp... anyway, glad it all worked out and enjoy the Larrivee and the Deluxe!!!

[riffdaddy]

I'm a Les Paul Deluxe guy too. Mine is a '02 model, from the last run before they discontinued them again. I also have a Standard and a Studio in my collection (working for a big dealer has its advantages...).

[1954Gold]

I'm a Les Paul Deluxe guy too. Mine is a '02 model, from the last run before they discontinued them again. I also have a Standard and a Studio

Thing is for a few hundred more you can get the long neck tenon, historic quality, ect and upgrade from the Standard. Norlin sold Gibson in 86, and the quality improved from then on under Henry J. So the '02 is probably better than the orginal Deluxes -some of those originals were pretty bad.. three piece necks, pancake body, Epiphone mini hums, and boat anchor weights. Minis made it sound more like a Strat than a LP. Now there is a great aftermarket for them, but I predict when all the Historics work their way thru the market, Norlin prices will drop. Still, I wish I had my 70 Deluxe GT back for sentimental reasons.

[riffdaddy]

The minis do have kind of a Strat-ish sound to them. I'm suffering right now because of it--I loaned my Standard to a high school kid at my church while his Ibanez is being repaired, and my Studio's bridge pickup isn't putting out the correct amount of signal. One of the tunes called at church this weekend calls for a pretty heavy lead (think cheesy eighties stuff--the kind that actually benefits from a harmonizer effect). I'm at a loss right now, because the Deluxe just isn't cutting it. I'm contemplating taking one of my cheapy guitars, but I'd rather not because none of them have particularly outstanding pickups. Hey, wait...isn't this an acoustic forum?  :unsure:  

[orsino]

Geez Nathan, every time you start posting again, it seems like you've got a whole new stable. You need to get that GAS in line my friend!

[riffdaddy]

Tom, I haven't bought anything new since the Morgan and the Kneeland mandolin back in October. That's a very long time for me! Actually, I've had all three Les Pauls for a while now. I bought the Standard not long after I got this job--probably November or December of 2001. I bought the Deluxe and the Studio in May of '02. I bought the Deluxe because I had been lusting after one for several years and we only had two left on the shelf (Gibson discontinued the model, so waiting until later wasn't an option). I bought the Studio (a cheapy '83 with a truly ugly sunburst) at about the same time as the Deluxe to play on bar gigs. I had started to pick up a little more work of that variety, and didn't really anticipate having almost no work in the year and a half since then. I should sell it, but it sounds great (when the pickups are working right...). Anyways, selling instruments of my own isn't really one of my strong points.

[1954Gold]

Hey, wait...isn't this an acoustic forum?  :

It's a Larrivee forum and Larrivee did have a line of sold body electrics for a while.... get rid of that Gibson USA stuff and switch to an R7, like night and day. BTW that is a really nice 52 Telecaster RI you guys have on the website now!!!

[atlantic]

Well, I'm a relative minimalist when it comes to guitars.  Basically, I have a strat, LP and now a Larrivee.  The core bases are covered. Of course, I still have my old Simon & Patrick which is fine for around the house.

Up until a couple of years ago, the LP Deluxe was the only guitar I played (almost 20 years). I've played lots of LP's but none I'd trade mine for. Sure it's a Norlin pancake which is not easy on the collar bone, but it's never seen the inside of a repair shop (and it's been played out ALOT). Hasn't even req'd any significant setup work (although the frets are getting very low...).

The Larrivee sounds better every time I pick it up.