Saddle for 1st Larrivee, an OM

[Duque]

Hi Guys!  First as I see the tradition here, for everyone! 

Now, I'd appreciate your comments, essentialy the questions is:

What's the main diference? between a saddle which IS ONLY compensated for the B string, and a saddle which is called "fully compensated" or Wave or Triple Compensated...and by that I mean the graphtech one I ordered which has the B string PLUS the A and Low E, or as the bone one I think we can buy from Larrivee online,

My Taylor and new Larrivee OM05 have a "plain saddle" only compensating the B string, and my Martin and Collings  have a compensated for the Low E and A too!

They make contact with the Low E right smack in front of the bridge pin, INMEDIATLY TOUCHING the saddle, right in front of it! you know the type,

Which one you have or prefer?!!!!!!!  I mean, to achieve best possible intonation!

I love my new Larrivee OM05, but there's this part of my brain telling me it might be "more" compensated, instead of just the B string, which do you prefer guys? My OM05 which is amazing! came with this "simple" saddle.

Thanks guys, I love this place, reading about fine acoustics!


Mauricio Duque

[longlaketech]

I am not an expert, but I think the compensated saddles on one string are slanted in the bridge, as opposed to the multiply compensated saddles, which are normally horizontal.....

[webberink]

I would stick with the saddle that came with the guitar unless you want to change the material that the saddle is made of.  Larrivee knows what they are doing intonation wise.  That being said, I replaced my three larrivee saddles with bone ones available for Larrivee guitars from  ... http://cherokeeguitar.com/product-category/02-larrivee/
The latest version of a bone saddle from them is in essence compensated for each string.  I like em.
Dave

[unclrob]

I don't use compensated saddle.

[Duque]

Thanks for the comments, the reason I'm asking is this, I've replaced back and forth the saddle of my Martin OM and Collings OM (both of them totally compensated) for a saddle like Larrivee's or Taylor's (which are only compensated B string) and DID NOT like the intonation change, sounded sour and wrong in several places and chords across the fretboard,

BUT when I've switched back and forth the saddle of the Larrivee OM05, couldn't really tell a big difference intonation wise, specially on the Low E or A strings, compensated or not...

Nice point about "Larrivee knows what they are doing about intonation", BUT the guitar comes standard with a B string Only compensated saddle, yet if you order a bone saddle from Larrivee, it IS fully compensated!

Which one should I order to fool around with the action, the same Not compensated or the new one? Or is there a reason Larrivee started selling fully compensated? is there and improvement?  I'm crazy about intonation, couldn't stand the "sweet tunings" from my Peterson tuner, and went back to standard or regular tuning with the peterson...

Mauricio

[nolifebutbmx]

for perfect intonation AND tone, make or get made a custom saddle.

...ooor just file the top of the current saddle to change the string break in the direction you want the note to go and there you have it.
string break angle closer to the neck: raise string pitch
" " further: lower string pitch
use a strobe tuner if you have access to one. a regular tuner in a quiet setting should also do fine.

pm me if you decide to take on intonating it yourself and have a question about anything.

[Duque]

Thanks for the comments nolifebutbmx , I'm a new member, can I PM?    I've really thought about it, making a saddle which will cover the tuning issues I percieve with the OM05,

Currently I placed a graphtech Fully Compensated saddle, which has the Low E, A and of course B string closer to the bridge pins, and I must say really made a difference compared with the original Larrivee, sweeter tuning across the fretboard, playing Laurence Juber or Doyle Dykes tunes 1st to 12th fret sound truer,

I can detect annoyingly easy once a chord has one or several strings sour sounding...which happens a lot! I'm retuning constantly, tried the strobe peterson's sweetened tunings, but of course ALWAYS at a compromise, or at the expense of sounding right BUT sounding bad here and there,

Once sending mails with Laurence Juber, he told me now he prefers the regular tuning, and NOT a sweetened tuning, and lives with the factory made compensated saddle, with its faults...

If i wanted to make a custom saddle for my OM05, what should I do, I could sanding the saddle, move it closer or further to the neck, but relative to what? the 12th fret? or its harmonic and then fretted at the 12th fret,

Of course I could just get a setup done...but I'm totally willing to learn, have a few spare saddles, a peterson tuner, and a pair of ears, desperate by the way to find the sweetest tuning I can get out of this beautiful Larrivee...

Mauricio

[Danny]

    For a short time Larrivee used a "super duper triple conflagration" saddle on higher end guitars. I saw them on the shortscale models. But they didn't seem to make much difference to me and I don't see them anymore.

    I took unclrob's advice and made some saddles with no compensation. They seemed just as good to me, but my ear may not be the best judge.

[Duque]

Thanks, didn't know Larrivee use to send factory guitars with fully compensated saddles, now they're back to non-compensated, yet IF you order one online store, the bone saddle is wave compensated!

Putting a not compensated saddle on any guitar, specially the thick B string WILL have an impact in intonation, there's no way a plain saddle will work as a compensated one, does not take much, just listen really careful, or use an accurate tuner, playing a simple C chord will sound sharp! the Low E, open string sounds one way, and once fretted sounds different with a non-compensated saddle, always does, more so with a plain saddle, sometimes so much it gives our pianist's group a headache!

Check this quick link from Petros Builder (the saddle part)  http://www.petrosguitars.com/features.htm

Can you live happy with false intonation? 

Love to hear your comments...

[Danny]

Larrivee used compensated saddles all the time, they never stopped.I just said they used the multi compensated saddle for a short time.
My 93 Martin OM-21 had a non compensated saddle and was used for gigging for over ten years. By a very astute musician. If its intonation was off it would have drove him crazy.

[Duque]

Yes it's true, but what I meant is Larrivee has been sending most their instruments with saddles compensated ONLY for the B string, but there are six strings on a guitar, and most builders will say a compensated saddle, for the Low E specially, is a must,

Of course there're guitars which sound fine with a non-compensated saddle, or they just seem to hide the imperfections inherent of the instrument really well, but there's a reason why luthiers tune each string for each guitar, when a really really good intonation is needed, or a bad one is perceived

[unclrob]

I hope you never have to play with another guitarist because if his guitar is not perfectly intonated like yours there will be sour note's among you.I have no intonation issue's but I also play a heavy gauge of strings,14-58.One issue that does come up when playing at time's a string can be press down too much pulling it sharp.

[Danny]

Yes it's true, but what I meant is Larrivee has been sending most their instruments with saddles compensated ONLY for the B string, but there are six strings on a guitar, and most builders will say a compensated saddle, for the Low E specially, is a must,

Of course there're guitars which sound fine with a non-compensated saddle, or they just seem to hide the imperfections inherent of the instrument really well, but there's a reason why luthiers tune each string for each guitar, when a really really good intonation is needed, or a bad one is perceived

The low E is compensated by the "slant" of the saddle. ALL the strings are compensated by the precise location of the nut and saddle, as well as the proper slotting of the nut. These items can throw off intonation easily. I have seen the scale being changed by repairs to a nut or a bridge.

[Duque]

Unclrob thanks for the comments,

Could you elaborate a bit, this is interesting to me, what saddle are you using? (the original with only B compensated) or a totally plain bone saddle?

And finally, which way you tune your instrument? by ear, with a tuner, and once done..do you tickle with certain strings? to get it the best way...

Thanks unclrob for your comments

Nice place to discuss guitars, love it!

[Duque]

Thanks dependan, you have a nice point refering to the slant of the saddle! good point, noticed how in my Collings and Martin the placing of the saddle is more tilted than the one with the Larri

[Danny]

We are glad to have you here and its nice to  discuss something other than "what strings do you use " for the hundredth time.

[Duque]

   jaja, currently I use Elixirs light, may not have the sound like regular strings, but they last quite a while

[Danny]

I have those on my OO but I won't use them Again.

[unclrob]

Unclrob thanks for the comments,

Could you elaborate a bit, this is interesting to me, what saddle are you using? (the original with only B compensated) or a totally plain bone saddle?

And finally, which way you tune your instrument? by ear, with a tuner, and once done..do you tickle with certain strings? to get it the best way...

Thanks unclrob for your comments

Nice place to discuss guitars, love it!

I use a plain piece of bone and angel the bone so that more string makes contact with the saddle.I use an "A" bar from a glockenspiel to tune the "A" string then temper tune from there.I stop using most tuners after learning how to tune piano's from one of the old masters when I lived in NY.At gig's I'm now using a tuning fork and my duo partner tune's to me.Like I said I also use heavy strings with very low action.Been doing things this way for 30 or more years.As for saddle's never had a complaint from any of my clients and I've made hundreds.

[GGBB]

You'll need to keep in mind that any saddle - compensated or not, custom made or not - is a compromise.  The design of the guitar is such that it's not possible to achieve perfect intonation everywhere on the fretboard - even everywhere on the playable part of the fretboard - just through saddle compensation.  You've got to adjust for the little inconsistencies through a combination of tuning adjustments and playing technique.  Tuners are a great help and give you a starting place, but you really need to fine-tune by ear.  If you are good enough at those two things, you can probably learn to sound good with any type of saddle.  However, I find that a custom compensated saddle makes the other parts easier.  I usually buy the kind that have the B string set back, and the D down to low E gradually tapering backward.  I think that's what's referred to as fully compensated.  Then I modify them according to whatever adjustment I feel is needed.  Then I learn to play and tune around my crappy intonation work.