Bone saddle, end pins on L-03WL

[HAMFIST]

So, I have had this Larrivee L-03WL, taken in a trade with a forumite for my D-03R, for a couple weeks now.

I took delivery today on a bone saddle and end pins from Cherokee Guitar. Check out my post on my transaction with them. Wonderful folks. Beyond wonderful.

Anyway, I popped the old saddle out of the L and measured it against the new one. I figured I would sand a little off at a time because it is easier to take more off than put some back on. The Cherokee saddles are made for Larrivees and have the compensated B string and drop right in. I had to slide a piece of sand paper across both ends a few times to get the width just right. After that, perfection.

So I made two cuts with the vibratory sander (gotta love that SANDING A BONE SADDLE smell ... oh yeah), and the action is still pretty high. I want it a BIT higher than it was when the guitar came to me, so one or two more cuts will do it. But the tone.

OH THE TONE.



The guitar seemed a bit quiet before. Now, I am afraid to play with my daughter sleeping across the house. The harder you hit it, the louder it gets. I have not yet dared to really see how much head room is there.

I plugged in for a moment through the LR Baggs undersaddle in the guitar, and plugged in tone was signifcantly improved. Makes sense that more efficient transfer of energy through the saddle would improve the tone of an undersaddle pickup. Was getting a lot more sparkle and clarity.

Overall, theacoustic  tone is not that much brighter. It IS more focused ... more presence. The top and the rest of the guitar are beind loaded more heavily now than they wre before. You can touch the back or the head and the whole things is just ringing like a dinner bell. I figure some of the cojones and volume will diminish as I take more material off and the strings are not coming across the saddle at such an oblique angle. But I think the net effect will still be significant.

I already have a bone saddle on my OM-03MT, but am now tempted to get the end pins for that guitar too. Just seems to make sense to add more mass into the string/body connection. And the MOP on the end pins look kind of cool too.

[cbarclay]

That's terrific!!

I added bone pins to my L-03W tonight and found a similar result. 

[HAMFIST]

Yeah, I was kind of cynical about the bridge pins. But they are the real deal.

Like I said, the overall volume will come down once I shave more off the saddle. The action is still QUITE high. But that is also a reminder that you can't have the lowest action in the world and the most powerful tone as well.

The action on the guitar when I got it was lower than the action on my Telecaster. I can stand it a bit higher, but will get there in one, maybe two more cuts. I'll be ordering more stuff from Cherokee soon, but would like to avoid ordering another saddle.

[Mr_LV19E]

Many times its not the saddle material itself but how it fits the slot that makes the biggest difference, bottom and sides of slot.

[unclrob]

All of my personal guitars have low action and most have bone saddle's but I have never had a loss of tone or volumn due to this fact.It really depends on the guitar and I can't tell what it is.My J05 was a monster for tone and volumn and it had the lowest action of all my guitars.My OM03PA is also very loud and the tone is amazing again fairly low action on it.Now it may be the fact that I use heavier strings then most people but I've never had a problem witheither tone or volumn.This also applies to my 2 LS's.

[jeremy3220]

I already have a bone saddle on my OM-03MT, but am now tempted to get the end pins for that guitar too.

I've changed bridge pins out on other guitars where it made a significant difference but on my OM-03MT it really made no discernible difference.

[HAMFIST]

I've changed bridge pins out on other guitars where it made a significant difference but on my OM-03MT it really made no discernible difference.

Thanks for the very applicable input there, Jeremy. I may give it a try yet. We'll see how it goes. What material did you replace your hog top's pins with? Maybe I'll try something different. Did you also have a bone saddle?

Just got done shaving down the saddle the rest of the way. Turns out it is just the tiniest hair higher than it was before, and in fact I may have taken it down further than intended. Very, very minor difference in string height than the Tusq nut I received the guitar with. In truth, I think the strings were smooshing their way into the old saddle, lowering the action more than the actual height would suggest.

With as high as the string tension was over the saddle before my last round of sanding, the guitar was extremely loud. Now that it is down to a more playable level, it is still very loud. It sounds prettier, too. I struggled with how quiet this guitar was when I got it. I don't struggle with that anymore.

Just can't express enough enthusiasm for this guitar at this point. It sounds infinitely better acoustically, and when I do the old test of hitting the open strings and placing my hand on the headstock, it feels like I hae electric current running through my hand. Plugged in, it sounds like a fine internal mic/piezo combination rather than the standard LR Baggs undersaddle that's in there. It has a lot more depth and complexity to the plugged in tone than had been the case. Sounds even nice rthan the K&K in my other Larrivee via the Pure preamp. And that is saying something.

Now gotta get back to some 

[cbarclay]

Just can't express enough enthusiasm for this guitar at this point. It sounds infinitely better acoustically, and when I do the old test of hitting the open strings and placing my hand on the headstock, it feels like I hae electric current running through my hand.

Once again, that's terrific!  Before I could sense some hesitation on the guitar and I'm glad you're really getting into it.

[jeremy3220]

Thanks for the very applicable input there, Jeremy. I may give it a try yet. We'll see how it goes. What material did you replace your hog top's pins with? Maybe I'll try something different. Did you also have a bone saddle?

I tried bone and didn't notice a difference. I had originally bought the pins for an OM-21 but the sound changed for the worse so I figured I'd try them on the OM-03MT. Strangely what made such a noticeable difference on the OM-21 made no difference in the OM-03MT. I ended up with solid ebony pins in the OM-03MT cause I like the look.

[cbarclay]

A lot of how the pins affect the tone of a guitar is how they fit.  Just like a saddle in the slot as mentioned above.

Jeremy, not knowing any of the other variables I wonder if the pins were sized more properly to the Larrivee than the Martin in your above example?  Most Martins (post 1994) have a 5 degree pin and Larrivee's take a 3 degree pin. If the guitar does not have the correct taper to the pin, the string ball/bridge plate connection will not be all that great and therefore lose tone - same basic principal to what was said above about how the saddle not fitting the slot very well and robbing the tone.  If they are not the proper taper and do not fit the hole well, they won't transfer the energy well.

[HAMFIST]

I tried bone and didn't notice a difference. I had originally bought the pins for an OM-21 but the sound changed for the worse so I figured I'd try them on the OM-03MT. Strangely what made such a noticeable difference on the OM-21 made no difference in the OM-03MT. I ended up with solid ebony pins in the OM-03MT cause I like the look.

Some folks say they like ebony pins on a hog top because hog tops tend to sound bright and the ebony mellows out the tone a bit. My hog top could stand to be woken up a little bit. Will try bone. With the bone saddle I have had on that guitar for a while, I figure MMMV.

[jeremy3220]

A lot of how the pins affect the tone of a guitar is how they fit.  Just like a saddle in the slot as mentioned above.

Jeremy, not knowing any of the other variables I wonder if the pins were sized more properly to the Larrivee than the Martin in your above example?  Most Martins (post 1994) have a 5 degree pin and Larrivee's take a 3 degree pin. If the guitar does not have the correct taper to the pin, the string ball/bridge plate connection will not be all that great and therefore lose tone - same basic principal to what was said above about how the saddle not fitting the slot very well and robbing the tone.  If they are not the proper taper and do not fit the hole well, they won't transfer the energy well.

I'm gonna disagree. I believe Larrivee doesn't even taper their bridge pin holes, none of them fit well. Also the pins do not act as a medium for energy transfer the same way the saddle does. The saddle acts as a terminal for string vibration. Vibrations beyond the saddle are mostly sympathetic. The pins will receive much more energy from the bridge vibrating. You don't even need bridge pins, classical guitars are pinless and they're usually more responsive.

[jeremy3220]

Some folks say they like ebony pins on a hog top because hog tops tend to sound bright and the ebony mellows out the tone a bit. My hog top could stand to be woken up a little bit. Will try bone. With the bone saddle I have had on that guitar for a while, I figure MMMV.

If it does affect the tone it should make it brighter.

[HAMFIST]

If it does affect the tone it should make it brighter.

Well, a dense substance like bone or ivory would make things brighter. Wood would tend to have the opposite effect. At least that is my understanding.

[jeremy3220]

Well, a dense substance like bone or ivory would make things brighter. Wood would tend to have the opposite effect. At least that is my understanding.

All things equal greater density vibrates at a lower frequency. In this case bone sounds brighter because it is harder and has less damping.

[cbarclay]

I'm gonna disagree. I believe Larrivee doesn't even taper their bridge pin holes, none of them fit well. Also the pins do not act as a medium for energy transfer the same way the saddle does. The saddle acts as a terminal for string vibration. Vibrations beyond the saddle are mostly sympathetic. The pins will receive much more energy from the bridge vibrating. You don't even need bridge pins, classical guitars are pinless and they're usually more responsive.

Good point about Larrivee's pin holes - I haven't measured them and don't know for sure but I have a feeling that they are.  
I think the reason classic guitars are so responsive are due to other reasons but the strings are anchored securely which helps the issue we are talking about.
I do somewhat disagree with you about pins not mattering.  You're right that in general guitars don't need them but the fact of the matter is that they are required on Larrivee's and that's what we're talking about.  If the string ball is not secure, the vibrations transferring to and from the saddle will be subdued.  For instance, if a string ball is pulled up into the slot of the pin that is made of a soft material like the plastic pins that came on my L-03W and wedged in between that pin and a section of wood that wasn't intended to support that kind of pressure (not the bridge plate but the top material), that is less secure than sitting on the surface of the bridge plate where it was designed to be.  The hardness of the pin helps to hold the string in place and that's where I feel the pin comes into play.  I'm not saying that the pins vibrate, I'm saying they help to concentrate the vibrations by keeping the strings firmly and securely anchored and therefore transferring the vibrations to the saddle then to the bridge and the sound board.
I hope this communicates what I am trying to respectfully say?  

Anyway, HAMFIST - I think it's great that you've dialed in your guitar.  Now we just need to find the 'right' strings!

[jeremy3220]

I do somewhat disagree with you about pins not mattering.

I didn't say they don't matter. I was pointing out how the pins do not function in energy transfer the same way as the saddle.

If the string ball is not secure...

That wasn't an issue in this case.




Also, you speculate a deterioration in tone but the fact is that even if the bone pins were not 'well fitting' the tone didn't change anyway from changing the pins.

[cbarclay]

Jeremy, I apologize if I misunderstood you.
I'm going to leave this alone so HAMFIST can have his topic returned to the original subject. Sorry to detail it. 

[HAMFIST]

Okay, this is heading into the direction of discussions I have been on regarding tubes versus modeling amps.

There are strong opinions on both sides, and it is akin to discussing religion. Or politics.

It's all cool. We are all trying to learn and get exposed to new ideas. Right? Right?

[lmacmil]

Okay, this is heading into the direction of discussions I have been on regarding tubes versus modeling amps.

There are strong opinions on both sides, and it is akin to discussing religion. Or politics.

When is comes to tone, whether it's acoustic or electric guitar or amps or tubes, there are no facts, only opinions.  Of course, there are people who think an opinion can be wrong and that's where the trouble begins.