Brazilian?

[Randy_R]

Man oh man, how does one even tell for sure, then?  And if it's that hard to tell, how significant is it in the big picture?  Duck, after seeing your pic, I'm again in doubt about what mine is.  Now I want mine to be Brazilian too, but I don't even know why for sure.     I guess I'm mostly wondering what it is about the Brazilian that makes it so much more desirable, and why it demands a premium.  Is it the rarity factor (thus collectability) mostly, the aesthetics, is there a tone advantage?

Kurt

All other things equal (which they never are), I think Brazilian rw has the best tone of all the woods. However, there is plenty of debate on that point, and I agree that what is good to one person's ears may not be to anothers. A good Indian rw guitar is a thing of beauty.

[dee-ten]

Dee-ten, maybe a dumb question, but did you include the full pic of the guitar's back that you originally posted to start the thread?

Kurt

Yes, I did.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Yes, I did.

I'm going to re-send the pics of the back and sides of mine to Larrivee and ask specifically if it is Brazilian or Indian Rosewood.  I forgot to ask that question specifically when I did it the first time.  Do'h.

Kurt

[tadol]

How it plays and how it sounds is really the bottom line. Could be either - plenty of Braz. guitars that sound fair at best, plenty of Indian guitars that are incredible. Unless you are paying a premium only for the name of the wood, I'd not worry about it -

[ducktrapper]

Man oh man, how does one even tell for sure, then?  And if it's that hard to tell, how significant is it in the big picture?  Duck, after seeing your pic, I'm again in doubt about what mine is.  Now I want mine to be Brazilian too, but I don't even know why for sure.     I guess I'm mostly wondering what it is about the Brazilian that makes it so much more desirable, and why it demands a premium.  Is it the rarity factor (thus collectability) mostly, the aesthetics, is there a tone advantage?

Kurt

****ed if I know. When I bought it in 1976, all I knew was, I had to have this guitar. I didn't know Brazilian rosewood from formica. It's actually quite the story that boils down to, I got lucky.

[AZLiberty]

what it is about the Brazilian that makes it so much more desirable, and why it demands a premium.
Kurt

History.  Brazillian is what Martin Guitars made most of their guitars from for most of the history of the company, including the highly desirable "pre-war" instruments.

Around 1965 Brazil banned exports of the raw lumber, you could still buy the wood, but it had to be milled in Brazil.  This substantially raised the cost for guitar builders, who up until that time had been buying entire logs then cutting them in the US.  By 1970 most builders had transitioned to Eaist Indian Rosewood due to cost.

Later the CITES treaty 1975 banned the trade of "non-certified" Brazilian rosewood, because Dalbergia Nigra (Braz RW) is listed as a threatened species.  

Now it is a good sounding tonewood, but to me, it really does not sound much better/different than any of the other Rosewoods which are in the Dalbergia family.

So, part of it is sound, but mostly I think it's the mystique and history.

[gracem]

Small world sometimes... I live 15 minutes from the guitar in question so I went and had a look.  The sides and back look a lot like the EIR I have on a mid 90's Takamine.  The grain is fairly tight and uniform - not like some Brazilian I've seen - or like the picture of Brazilian earlier in this post, but I'm no expert in rosewood.  I looked inside and could not see anything like BR or BRAZ by or near the serial number (maybe they weren't doing it back then anyways).  My guess would be EIR.  A few other comments: some fret wear, bridge is firm, neck is visibly separating from the body on both sides at the back of the neck (strap pin side, maybe about 1 mm max), the case looks to be for a D and this is an L (very average case).  Played it a bit - but I'm no 12 string player - very nice full warm sound.  Hope this helps - I know I've been helped by fellow forum-ites and have bought 2 amazing Larrivees from forum members - one for me and one for my son!      Greg

[L07 Shooting Star]

Small world sometimes... I live 15 minutes from the guitar in question so I went and had a look.  The sides and back look a lot like the EIR I have on a mid 90's Takamine.  The grain is fairly tight and uniform - not like some Brazilian I've seen - or like the picture of Brazilian earlier in this post, but I'm no expert in rosewood.  I looked inside and could not see anything like BR or BRAZ by or near the serial number (maybe they weren't doing it back then anyways).  My guess would be EIR.  A few other comments: some fret wear, bridge is firm, neck is visibly separating from the body on both sides at the back of the neck (strap pin side, maybe about 1 mm max), the case looks to be for a D and this is an L (very average case).  Played it a bit - but I'm no 12 string player - very nice full warm sound.  Hope this helps - I know I've been helped by fellow forum-ites and have bought 2 amazing Larrivees from forum members - one for me and one for my son!      Greg

Small world indeed, Greg.  I'm in NE Edmonton so just a bit further away from the seller than you.  I talked to him on the phone tonight.  By any chance, are you the one who he said was coming to look at it earlier this evening (thurs)?  Anyways, I think you just saved me a trip.  I was going to look at it tomorrow evening, mostly to just hear it compared to my L07 which is almost identical to it in design and woods.  Now I don't think I'll bother given the potential neck joint issues, which I assume could be a major problem?   I told myself, and my wife  , I just want to compare the two and not buy it, but you know how that can snowball.  So, better I avoid the temptation all together.


Kurt

[Peter Cree]

I'm pretty sure its EIR.   

[jimmy buffett]

Now it is a good sounding tonewood, but to me, it really does not sound much better/different than any of the other Rosewoods which are in the Dalbergia family.

So, part of it is sound, but mostly I think it's the mystique and history.

I was always a little embarassed to tell people that I had a DV 09 BZ, and just could not bond with the sound.  I found that eventually I stopped playing this guitar and figured that it was best to trade it for another Larrivee.  A very accomplished player I know told me a similar story about after finally getting his own brazilian guitar, he just didn't like it.

As for me, I'm nuts about my EI RW JCL 40th Anniversary Reissue, so I guess it's just another case of different strokes for different folks.  I would love to hear duck's old BZ, as I'm sure that it's sounding awesome after all those years of pickin'...

[dee-ten]

Small world sometimes... I live 15 minutes from the guitar in question so I went and had a look.  The sides and back look a lot like the EIR I have on a mid 90's Takamine.  The grain is fairly tight and uniform - not like some Brazilian I've seen - or like the picture of Brazilian earlier in this post, but I'm no expert in rosewood.  I looked inside and could not see anything like BR or BRAZ by or near the serial number (maybe they weren't doing it back then anyways).  My guess would be EIR.  A few other comments: some fret wear, bridge is firm, neck is visibly separating from the body on both sides at the back of the neck (strap pin side, maybe about 1 mm max), the case looks to be for a D and this is an L (very average case).  Played it a bit - but I'm no 12 string player - very nice full warm sound.  Hope this helps - I know I've been helped by fellow forum-ites and have bought 2 amazing Larrivees from forum members - one for me and one for my son!      Greg

Greg, thanks for letting us know what you saw and heard.  And thanks to everyone for their input. 

Here's Larrivee's response after seeing the pictures:

The guitar is for sure Indian Rosewood.  I don't believe we were using Brazilian at that time either.  Indian Rosewood would be better if you are ever traveling since there are restrictions on Brazilian Rosewood in some countries.

[Dale_I]

Another identifying mark of Brazilion is the effect called webbing. In the normal grain pattern you can find some nontraditional grain lines. Indian tends to be visually tighter grain with the same color variation, but the color variation is tighter as well. You can see in Ducks pictures that his Brazilion has wider color variation across adjacent grain lines and the grain lines seem to be less tight. Although his particular guitar is very consistant, you can still see a webbing pattern emerging about 2/3rds of the way down the back just to the outside of the centerline.

Duck.... lucky? That's like saying you found a lottery ticket on the ground and it happened to be the big winner. Not only that, but the day you turned it in was the last day it would have been eligible for redemption. You've got a gorgeous collection.

[247hoopsfan]

How it plays and how it sounds is really the bottom line. Could be either - plenty of Braz. guitars that sound fair at best, plenty of Indian guitars that are incredible. Unless you are paying a premium only for the name of the wood, I'd not worry about it -

:Agree with Tadol  I have played quite a few Brazilian, and have yet to find one that sounds better than my JCL 40th Anniversary model.  Back wood is but one component of the sound of a guitar, important to be sure, but not the only thing.  I believe the top bracing plays a very important part.  My JCL has a totally different, richer sound than any L09 or L10 I have ever played.  Jean Larrivee said he hand shaped the bracing on the JCL.  It is the same shape and tonewoods as the L09/10, but blows them away in sound.

[gregor]

Here another example for Brazilian RW from my 2 Larrivee´s: BZ can look different :-)




[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pickering_Picker]

Visually, I tell Brazilian from Indian by the fact that Brazilian grain lines look more precise or in-focus than Indian. Indian looks a bit softer or blurrier. Colour and pattern of grain is all over the map for both varieties. (If I could see a focused picture of the back with plenty of resolution, I'd known in an instant.)

As for sound, Brazilian is simply harder than Indian, just as Indian is harder than mahogany, and ebony is harder than both. Therefore, it gives a bit of a ringier tone (more higher overtones) than Indian by maybe 10 or 15 %. This may be a good thing for a nylon string guitar, since the strings have that fat, fundamentals emphasis. But for steel string guitars -- esp. when combined with a tight spruce soundboard -- that extra ring can easily be over the top, if the builder doesn't know how to compensate. Heck -- look at how many people will take a mahogany D-18 over a rosewood D-28 (Martin dreadnought models) because they want that sweeter sound. If they want ring, all they need to do is put on a new set of phosphor strings.

Indian rosewood is beautiful, Brazilian is typically even more beautiful ... to the eye. Like elaborate inlays or the quilting in select maple, the rarity and visual appeal of Brazilian is a fanciness factor, not a sound-superiority factor. You marvel over it for the first month of ownership, then you don't even notice it unless you're showing it off to a stranger. If you're a builder and you have a set of Brazilian, you don't think "wow! this will give me a fabulous sounding guitar!". You think "wow! this will allow me to jack up the price! ... now what top should I use to balance out all those overtones?..."

[ST]

[cke]

Visually, I tell Brazilian from Indian by the fact that Brazilian grain lines look more precise or in-focus than Indian. Indian looks a bit softer or blurrier. Colour and pattern of grain is all over the map for both varieties. (If I could see a focused picture of the back with plenty of resolution, I'd known in an instant.)

As for sound, Brazilian is simply harder than Indian, just as Indian is harder than mahogany, and ebony is harder than both. Therefore, it gives a bit of a ringier tone (more higher overtones) than Indian by maybe 10 or 15 %. This may be a good thing for a nylon string guitar, since the strings have that fat, fundamentals emphasis. But for steel string guitars -- esp. when combined with a tight spruce soundboard -- that extra ring can easily be over the top, if the builder doesn't know how to compensate. Heck -- look at how many people will take a mahogany D-18 over a rosewood D-28 (Martin dreadnought models) because they want that sweeter sound. If they want ring, all they need to do is put on a new set of phosphor strings.

Indian rosewood is beautiful, Brazilian is typically even more beautiful ... to the eye. Like elaborate inlays or the quilting in select maple, the rarity and visual appeal of Brazilian is a fanciness factor, not a sound-superiority factor. You marvel over it for the first month of ownership, then you don't even notice it unless you're showing it off to a stranger. If you're a builder and you have a set of Brazilian, you don't think "wow! this will give me a fabulous sounding guitar!". You think "wow! this will allow me to jack up the price! ... now what top should I use to balance out all those overtones?..."

I like your attitude, dude  . I think it all has more to do with the luthier than the 'magic' specs. Some differences sometimes. JCL is a wizard with it all.

[Pickering_Picker]

I like your attitude, dude. I think it all has more to do with the luthier than the 'magic' specs. Some differences sometimes. JCL is a wizard with it all.

Thanks! And of course I agree about JCL being a wizard. But he can't have had his finger in the pie of all the thousands of guitars that come out of the two shops. He'd have to be in two places at once for one thing, given the two shops. Yet Larrivee guitars not only have an excellent rep for sheer sound quality, they also have an excellent rep for consistent sound quality. To me that says he's passed on his expertise to his staff to a very high degree. There's only so far you can go with recipe instructions like: "use a softer top for Brazilian b&s" (fictitious example). The person following the recipe has to have an ear for tap tones in order to select that softer top.

I don't have any reason to believe JCL had any direct input into building my particular guitar, yet it's phenomenally excellent. I chose it over instruments two and three times the price. What that tells me is that even when JCL retires the company will continue creating instruments to the same high standards indefinitely. And that makes me feel very, very good. (BTW: here in the Toronto area we're keenly aware how excellent a teacher JCL must be, given all his apprentices have gone on to do great things themselves. David Wren, Grit Laskin, Linda Manzer, Sergei de Jonge are names that come immediately to mind in these parts.)

Sorry to sound like a fanboy, folks!

Also, sorry to get so far off-topic. ST's photo is a brazilant example (to recycle ST's great pun) of what we mostly think of when we think Brazilian: slab-cut (?) to create interesting grain patterns. But there is quarter-cut Brazilian out there with more nearly straight grain lines, like a soundboard. The theory is that quarter-cut Brazilian will make for a "better" sound as well as being less prone to cracking. I think most builders would now agree both points are largely myth.

ST: hope you don't mind, I sharpened your pic of your guitar's truly beautiful back in an attempt to make the Brazilian-ness of the grain pattern more apparent:

[Randy_R]

I'm including a pic of the back of a C-19Braz I own. This is the plainest and flattest sawn Braz I've seen. yet the tone is that typical Brazilian clarion-like trademark (ring).



Its also a lovely piece of work.

[cke]

Thanks! And of course I agree about JCL being a wizard. But he can't have had his finger in the pie of all the thousands of guitars that come out of the two shops. He'd have to be in two places at once for one thing, given the two shops. Yet Larrivee guitars not only have an excellent rep for sheer sound quality, they also have an excellent rep for consistent sound quality. To me that says he's passed on his expertise to his staff to a very high degree. There's only so far you can go with recipe instructions like: "use a softer top for Brazilian b&s" (fictitious example). The person following the recipe has to have an ear for tap tones in order to select that softer top.

I don't have any reason to believe JCL had any direct input into building my particular guitar, yet it's phenomenally excellent. I chose it over instruments two and three times the price. What that tells me is that even when JCL retires the company will continue creating instruments to the same high standards indefinitely. And that makes me feel very, very good. (BTW: here in the Toronto area we're keenly aware how excellent a teacher JCL must be, given all his apprentices have gone on to do great things themselves. David Wren, Grit Laskin, Linda Manzer, Sergei de Jonge are names that come immediately to mind in these parts.)

Sorry to sound like a fanboy, folks!

Also, sorry to get so far off-topic. ST's photo is a brazilant example (to recycle ST's great pun) of what we mostly think of when we think Brazilian: slab-cut (?) to create interesting grain patterns. But there is quarter-cut Brazilian out there with more nearly straight grain lines, like a soundboard. The theory is that quarter-cut Brazilian will make for a "better" sound as well as being less prone to cracking. I think most builders would now agree both points are largely myth.

ST: hope you don't mind, I sharpened your pic of your guitar's truly beautiful back in an attempt to make the Brazilian-ness of the grain pattern more apparent:

Re: the future. JCL's sons, John and Matthew, are the ones running the factories and are fully involved in design and building, sharing all of their Dad's knowledge.   The company is in great hands for the foreseeable future.