New Prices Versus Used Prices

[bigmo]

I have "tried" to buy local at least 4 times and only once did I walk out with a guitar. I bout a Taylor about 3 years a go because it was on a good sale, but since then the prices have just been too much over what good reputable online dealers can offer. The Larrivee I bought would have been $300 more at this shop. That is enough savings to buy an Utrasound AG30, a new tuner and 7-8 sets of strings!  Yes I would like to patronize my local stores, but if I want to continue to buy American guitars, I have to shop for a bargain.

On the other topic, I believe it is only a matter of time before we really separate into the "Have and Have nots" and unless you are willing to shell out some serious money, you will be buying products made elsewhere. It's a shame, but fact.  I know many remember when stuff made in Japan was "junk", now it is high quality and priced to match. With their many years of recession and financial problems they now farm out so much. You would think Hitachi was Japanese, but only in name like many other products.  What I should do is buy a few wood sets and tools so later when I am retired and have some time I can make a few guitars!

[whiskeyjack]

Reputation is more important then money.This includes selling them and fixing them.You've got to stand behind what you do.

And that is so very true.  Being a service provider of anything is also very unforgiving.  One screw-up and you lose a customer if you don't handle it right.

My 'former' luthier whom I'd known, trusted and supported for nearly 20 years screwed me recently.  We discussed at length the construction of a custom Telecaster from parts.  He knew I wanted to be frugal about this and he knew what I intended to spend.  I trusted his advice as I bought the components which included a $100 AllParts neck.  When I went to pick the guitar up his Dad and one of his buddies immediately started talking about how much work that neck needed and, "Oh, he sure put a lot of time into that neck."   Not a good sign even if they did consider me an idiot. . . .they knew I was not going to be pleased with the bill when I walked through the door.   'Turns out he spent $250 re-finishing the neck!  Now that's not a bad thing - he did a really good job with it - I even made the waterslide decals for him.  The problem was he (and everybody else) KNEW I would pay for it regardless of what he did.  Hell, I could've bought a new Warmoth neck (finished) for $375 and it would've been a better neck.

I no longer have a trusted luthier.  I paid him what he asked.   But he lost a $1500 per year customer.  Stupid.

I can't tell you how many horror stories I've been told about buying at one place or another or someone did a repair and now I need to get it repaired again because it was screwed up.

This seems to be a good luthier's perpetual lament.  I've heard it dozens of times.  The last time I heard it was from a luthier who had been criticized by another luthier for doing shoddy work!! 

What I should do is buy a few wood sets and tools so later when I am retired and have some time I can make a few guitars!

After several expensive disappointments chasing my 'dream' guitar, this is exactly what I've recently decided to do.  I recently bought an inexpensive kit and an OM form.   I've bought Kinkead's book on how to build an acoustic guitar.  I'm in the process of creating a modest shop to pursue the custom guitar of my dreams.  Screw Martin's custom shop and their quality control issues.

New Prices Versus Used Prices

I don't buy new guitars anymore unless there's something extremely special about the instrument.  But I don't generally have to worry.  The last guitar I REALLY wanted to buy was created by Tony Vines and it was up around $8000.  We give advice to those shopping for guitars.  We say, "buy the one that speaks to you".  Well, this one DEFINITELY spoke to me!      And then I had a talk with me too.      And we all came to a consensus that buying this guitar would be financial suicide.     But geeeze, what a guitar!!!

But really, you'd think that guitar prices would be like housing?  At some point in a given local community house prices will plateau and won't move because of people not having enough money to afford them.  Housing costs are, more or a little less, self-regulating.  So, I can't help but wonder if guitars will reach a plateau where new guitars over say, $2000 will become the ceiling for most buyers and the used market will become the floor.   I dunno' how to think about it but it would seem that, at some point, the market would be so glutted with guitars there would be little point in maintaining high prices for instruments that few people would buy>?

Oh, never mind. 

[cjjtulsa]

So, I can't help but wonder if guitars will reach a plateau where new guitars over say, $2000 will become the ceiling for most buyers and the used market will become the floor.   

I'm already there.  In fact, $2000 is a skitch above my ceiling. 

[unclrob]

whiskeyjack well said.I try not to bad mouth others,though it may come across that way ie:I wonder why he did it that way{one of my favorite sayings}.Price wise I ry to give a cieling and a bottom,then no matter how well I know the person or don't know them I will talk to them.I don't do any building but I do do some assembly work now and then and I have set prices.If I mess up the $ on me.

[whiskeyjack]

If I mess up the $ on me

And that's the ethical thing to do.  The customer should be informed of what to expect and the service provider should have the integrity to follow through.

My former luthier was always reluctant to provide an upfront verbal estimate. . . .and I was always adamant about getting one.  I'm sure it bugged him.  And I was not as persnickity as some of his customers were to deal with.  He did great setups!   But for this custom guitar, he exceeded the verbal handshake by about 200 bucks (beyond my threshold for forgiveness). 

It takes me a little while to catch on sometimes but he eventually showed his true colours.  I wasn't sharp enough, or maybe just felt obligated to support a struggling sole proprietorship.  Anyway, he screwed up for the last time with me.  It comes down to credibility and integrity: lose one or the other and you've lost me as a customer.  And I think we're all that way to some degree.   This thread is a chronicle to some of the things that shape a buyers' loyalty (or not).

I try not to bad mouth others,though it may come across that way . . .

Nah.  You just tell it like it is.  That's why folks in these parts respect your credibility.  You are a credit to this forum and I've seen you back step a few times when you were misunderstood to get things straightened out.

I'm already there.  In fact, $2000 is a skitch above my ceiling.

.. .as it is above mine as well. . .   That said, I'll have a bit more than $2000 into the first guitar I build if my time is worth anything.  After the first one, I'll hopefully have a better idea of my costs.  In any event, I think learning to build, learning to set up, learning to re-fret, dress frets, etc. is within the realm of possibility for any of us who have a passion for guitars.  I was just too lazy for too many years and had more money than brains or ambition. . .   It took about $4000 dollars of disappointment to kick me in the butt and make me assess how badly I wanted to pursue and maintain this guitar habit, and to figure out what I might be willing to do to make it more fulfilling and cheaper at the same time.

The used vs new issue had a lot to do with my change in buying habits.  'Don't know if anyone else can relate to this but. . .  I was in a place where I had enough money to 'collect' nice guitars in the 2000-dollar range.  (The Arlo Guthrie 0000-AG Signature twelve string was one of two exceptions at $3500 and my bastardized J16C-RGTE custom twelve string was the other at about $2700)...   

So I bought used and new Martins and Taylors at the same time.  The new ones were purchased from dealers

Initially, it was Bob Taylors' attitude toward the folks at the old Taylor Guitar Forum that got me to thinking seriously about how much money I was spending on new guitars.  Then it was a seriously disappointing experience with a new custom guitar from Martin that REALLY hacked me off.  So, from my perspective it goes back to the integrity thing. . .   My much-belabored point here is that at least some customers can be discouraged from buying new guitars, (or new anything), by manufacturers who are insensitive to the customer. . . .or even insensitive to my favourite dealers, online or not!   That's just one more thing driving more of us to buy used guitars rather than new. 

Jean Larrivee's guitar company has not been insensitive to the customer.  To the contrary for sure!!!   But my experiences with Taylor and Martin management leave a lot to be desired.  One bad $2000 experience will NOT encourage me to spend that kind of money again on anything NEW in the entire name brand line.
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I don't sell on ebay hardly at all..   But there were no buyers for this guitar on the forum, so I decided to try auctioning it.  So as an exercise in what a used guitar can bring, let's use my auction as an example of what happens when bidders have access to a virtually new guitar being sold as used by a second owner.   I'm told that this guitar sells new for just under a thousand dollars at a very reputable online dealer most of us are familiar with - I didn't verify it.  The buy-it-now price is $975 which is what I think the guitar is worth - but don't expect to get.   The reserve price is reasonable.  The auction ends tomorrow morning.  If the reserve price is met, somebody will get a really nice guitar.  But right now, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the reserve will not be met on this instrument! 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180103775396&rd=1&rd=1

 

[cjjtulsa]

Initially, it was Bob Taylors' attitude toward the folks at the old Taylor Guitar Forum that got me to thinking seriously about how much money I was spending on new guitars.  Then it was a seriously disappointing experience with a new custom guitar from Martin that REALLY hacked me off.  So, from my perspective it goes back to the integrity thing. . .   My much-belabored point here is that at least some customers can be discouraged from buying new guitars, (or new anything), by manufacturers who are insensitive to the customer. . . .or even insensitive to my favourite dealers, online or not!   That's just one more thing driving more of us to buy used guitars rather than new. 

Jean Larrivee's guitar company has not been insensitive to the customer.  To the contrary for sure!!!   But my experiences with Taylor and Martin management leave a lot to be desired.  One bad $2000 experience will NOT encourage me to spend that kind of money again on anything NEW in the entire name brand line.
 

I've only had one customer service experience with Taylor, and it was just a phone call asking for specifics.  They were very friendly and professional, so I have no beef there.  I'm not too familiar with what may have happened on the forum deal.  It's my understanding that Larrivee offers very good customer service as well.

Having said all that, I'd like to look into maybe a Morgan or something a little different, yet very high in quality for a companion guitar to my Taylor - unless that "companion" outplays it, and then it may be replaced.  I'm really liking it so far though, so I hope to keep it a while.

[unclrob]

Whiskey you hit the nail on the head.Integrity,honor and trust are everything.I trully wish more people had it.As much as I could use more money its just not worth the lose of  Integrity,honor and trust.So we get by.I do have a ? did your luthier make the neck?Did he say why he had to refinish it? $200 is cheap to do an assembly of parts.

[whiskeyjack]

UncleRob:  You've got an email.

'Probly best to let this thread get back on track.  My apologies to ya Brimc76.  I got a little carried away.

[brimc76]

UncleRob:  You've got an email.

'Probly best to let this thread get back on track.  My apologies to ya Brimc76.  I got a little carried away.

I agree with what has been said whiskeyjack, but I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me. I'm grateful that this discussion has been allowed to happen. I have nothing against buying anything online - if I can't find what I'm looking for locally. I'd be grateful for more information on that book of Kinkead's you mentioned if you would pm me the details. Thanks.

Brian

[sgarnett]

While I do buy strings and sundries locally, and did buy my Parlor locally, I just wish there was a store in the area that I really wanted to support. I've been in such places at the other end of a plane ride.

I've been patronizing one of the local stores for around a quarter century. Others have commented on the same vibe I get, that they (the owner in particular) look down on anyone who isn't a working pro. I've spent a lot of money there over the years. One particular trade is still etched in my mind - a snow job about an amp being only worth X used, so it was only worth X/2 in trade. Well, they have to make a profit, I understand that. Imagine my surprise the next day when I saw it priced at over triple what I had been told (over 6X the trade in). Well, shame on me for being a sucker, but there was no Ebay to gauge prices by in those days, especially for something (ahem) rare.

I do still support them from time to time (that's where I bought the Parlor), because like it or not, they are still the best shop in town. I sure learned not to trust the owner, though. By the way, he's the best (only) tech in town, since a luthier friend died last year.

There's a newer shop that I like better, but they have nothing I want. They're just down the road from the other shop though, so I can't even (in good conscience) suggest they pick up new lines that they'll lose money on.

Ebay may not be doing great things for the new/retail market, but I've often seen things go above retail (including Larrivees). I do think it's good that there is a public gauge of the used market price, but maybe my perspective is skewed. One thing about it, without the narrow spread enabled by Ebay and online classifieds, GAS would be a lot more painful and I suspect that fewer new Larrivees (etc) would be sold. The option of buying new to try, with the expectation of getting most of your money back, simply didn't exist before.

I do think there is entirely too much new stuff being retailed on Ebay by "dealers".

[whiskeyjack]

. . .I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me.

Yes, I did.   Thank ya.     *My apologies to ya, Fredmondo!*
_____________________________

Brimc76:  You've got an email regarding the Kinkead book.
_____________________________

sgarnett:

  'Pretty dis-heartening thing to get screwed by someone you've supported for years. 

Ebay may not be doing great things for the new/retail market,. . . .    One thing about it, without the narrow spread enabled by Ebay and online classifieds, GAS would be a lot more painful and I suspect that fewer new Larrivees (etc) would be sold.

I think that's right.  Ebay has influenced people who would normally have purchased new items just by virtue of its field of sellers and the alternatives they provide.  It'd be interesting to see graphs of sales trends over the last ten or so years from Larrivee, Martin and Taylor.  Can't help but think they've tanked.

The option of buying new to try, with the expectation of getting most of your money back, simply didn't exist before.

That IS quite a benefit for us.  And I think it came largely because of the competition created by ebay and the internet.   It's not universal by any means but, as you say, the option didn't exist (anywhere) before.  Places like Elderly, who offer a 48 hour trial period ARE a real incentive to buy new stuff.  I had a rule when I was out of control : if the price difference between new and used guitar was $150 or less, I'd buy it new from someone who offered a grace period.

The problem with ebay and the competition thing is that virtually all used items have lost value (the exceptions are truly vintage guitars or celebrity-owned instruments - Elton John's piano, for example).  The old farm auctions of yore were a good place to buy usable equipment cheap - and as you suggest, sometimes the price of things went way beyond what it sold for new.   So regardless of the "value" of the guitar (materials, features, build, etc), it will ultimately sell for less than its intrinsic monetary value.

I don't sell on ebay hardly at all..   But there were no buyers for this guitar on the forum, so I decided to try auctioning it.  So as an exercise in what a used guitar can bring, let's use my auction as an example of what happens when bidders have access to a virtually new guitar being sold as used by a second owner.   I'm told that this guitar sells new for just under a thousand dollars at a very reputable online dealer most of us are familiar with - I didn't verify it.  The buy-it-now price is $975 which is what I think the guitar is worth - but don't expect to get.   The reserve price is reasonable.  The auction ends tomorrow morning.  If the reserve price is met, somebody will get a really nice guitar.  But right now, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the reserve will not be met on this instrument!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180103775396&rd=1&rd=1

The auction ended.  Maximum bid: $750 for my Larrivee OMV-03.  Not even close to the reserve.  In the old days, (if this model had been available), before the internet, this guitar would have been more valuable.  I'd be a bit frustrated if I were an older guitar dealer with memories of life before ebay.

And then there are annual fluctuations in sales of everything.   This guitar might sell for more money in February 2008 just after folks start getting their income tax returns.

[sgarnett]

sgarnett:

  'Pretty dis-heartening thing to get screwed by someone you've supported for years.

Actually, it's the other way around. I've continued to warily support them for years after being screwed. A local shop I don't trust is still marginally better than none at all.  Nevertheless, they have lost far more business from me in the long run than they gained from one swindle, and as I said I still get the vibe that I don't belong there, as do others.

So, I will often pay more to support someone I trust, or someone that helps me above and beyond, regardless of where they are.

[brimc76]

Yes, I did.   Thank ya.     *My apologies to ya, Fredmondo!*
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Brimc76:  You've got an email regarding the Kinkead book.
_____________________________

Thanks.

[Fredmando]

I agree with what has been said whiskeyjack, but I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me. I'm grateful that this discussion has been allowed to happen. I have nothing against buying anything online - if I can't find what I'm looking for locally. I'd be grateful for more information on that book of Kinkead's you mentioned if you would pm me the details. Thanks.

Brian

Brian, now don't start being nice to me. I won't know how to act at home. Abuse keeps me honest!
This is all very interesting...on thread...thread! It's all cool!

[whiskeyjack]

Abuse keeps me honest!

  Glutton for punishment!!

[Fredmando]

For those of you who have sold used guitars to fund new GAS adventures, do you think it comes to a point where you will take a low-ball price?
Or, do you just put the guitar back in the collection and wait it out?
Again, I think e-Bay is great for some things. But, the majority of the buyers are looking for a real deal.
Heck, you see that on forum classifieds all the time.

[bearsville0]

I'm not sure if we're complaining or celebrating ebay. Regardless of the final price, stuff is moving around more quickly. There is more choice and a wider access to potential buyers. The pull between buyers and sellers will always be in opposite directions, always has been. And both parties it seems to me are rarely satisfied.

All around good stuff though. I don't think I'll ever miss the good old days.

[sgarnett]

Most reminiscing about the old days involves girls more than guitars 

Or maybe I should say, it involves more girls than guitars instead of the other way around ....

[brimc76]

Brian, now don't start being nice to me. I won't know how to act at home. Abuse keeps me honest!
This is all very interesting...on thread...thread! It's all cool!

 

[whiskeyjack]

For those of you who have sold used guitars to fund new GAS adventures, do you think it comes to a point where you will take a low-ball price?
Or, do you just put the guitar back in the collection and wait it out?
Again, I think e-Bay is great for some things. But, the majority of the buyers are looking for a real deal.
Heck, you see that on forum classifieds all the time.

A major decrease in Gas adventures will continue to be the trend for me.  And I think most of us have willingly taken a hit in selling an instrument to satisfy the urge for buying something else that looked and sounded better.    Riight now, I've chosen to wait out the soft market on used guitars rather than lose $150-200 on a guitar used guitar I bought in January.  I don't believe I paid too much for it then.  So methinks it's a little rediculous that a $950 used guitar would sell for only $750 in three months. . .and there's not a scratch on it.      Cutaways are supposed to be more valuable!~! 

I'm not sure if we're complaining or celebrating ebay. . . . There is more choice and a wider access to potential buyers. And both (buyers and sellers) parties it seems to me are rarely satisfied. . . .
I don't think I'll ever miss the good old days.

I use ebay frequently so I must like it more than not.  It's benefits for the individual buyer outshine it's warts for the sometime-seller though - it's expensive to sell on ebay.  It'll cost about $55 for a modest reserve auction on a 1000-dollar-guitar and more if you conduct the transaction through a Premier PayPal account using a credit card.  SO that's roughly 5.5% from ebay PLUS approximately 3.3% from PayPal.  'Around $88 bucks on a $1000 sale? 

Ebay is a buyer's market.   Ya, there's more choice but "somebody" is footin' the bill for that convenience.   The profit margin for these huge ebay sellers can't be that great or there'd be more of them and it'd be interesting to see a graphic profile of sellers with fluctuations in their annual income from ebay sales.

And you're right, the good old days weren't always that great.  But I do miss the simplicity of a slower pace, fewer choices, lower blood pressure and seemingly higher ethical business standards.  There's always trade-offs that we're apparently happy to pay for though.

Good thread!@