What elevates the boutique guitars? A "vicarious" thread.

[d03nut]

I must confess that so far I haven't really laid my picks on an expensive guitar.  But having in my possession (borrowing from automobile parlance) a "near-entry-luxury model" that I really dig has got me even more curious as to what I'm missing out on in terms of high-quality acoustic guitars.  So with that in mind, I was hoping that maybe esteemed members could "gently" clarify the error in my thinking:

The big guitar makers have been in this business so many years that they've probably figured out what makes for a successful guitar design.  They've got the research budget, the resources, the time and motivation on their side.  Granted, maybe the smaller builders use higher quality raw material, but even there the big companies shouldn't be that far behind.

So when I hear people drooling over some small builder's guitar that costs a fortune, it just makes me wonder.  Just what is it about these guitars that so sets them apart?  I can see how because of its' lower output (in terms of #guitars made) a small shop can give more attention to detail and so on. But by the same token, it would be lacking in some other areas, which also contribute to the overall picture (more appropriately sound) as mentioned above.  Other than being able to offer more "consistency" in their lineup, I don't necessarily see how a boutique guitar maker can beat the big players, i.e. offer a better product.

I mean does "a little bit more here, a little bit more there" really amount to such a difference in tone to warrant the prices one is expected to pay in order to obtain one of these "beauties"?

A pre-emptive apology to all luthiers and guitar makers that are "aiming for my throat" right about now.  Like I said before, I haven't any experience with such guitars.  So please indulge me with yours.

Thank U.

[fitness1]

I guess it's a bunch of little things.    Fit and finish is certainly part of it.   Personally, I like the feeling that the builder is available when you have questions and concerns.  This is one thing that Larrivee has down even though they produce a lot of instruments.   I have had so many positive experiences with Matthew, Jean and Brian and they have a customer for life because of it.  I'll always have a couple of Larrivee's.  What I'm looking for in the boutique guitar is more balance, that little extra string separation, a little better playability and responsiveness, and, of course the intangibles like pride of ownership. Another thing I find most small shops have over most factory builds is consistent tone all the way up the neck.....of course there are exceptions on both sides of the tracks. I will add that, of course, as with anything else, there is a point of diminishing returns...let's face it, there's only so much sound you can get out of an instrument no matter how much you tweak it.   After years of playing for folks because I had to in an effort to make ends meet, I'm at a point where I don't have to anymore, and I can justify instruments that I would have never considered just a few years ago (I would have been scared to take them out - LOL)  I can't tell you how much pleasure I get from my instruments.   Some guys buy speedboats, motorcycles, whatever.......I'll take a quite night at home with a great instrument and a fresh set of strings anytime!!

[SD-50 Mike]

I'm with Fitness1 on the diminishing returns idea.  But I will add this: if you're serious about playing, buy the best sounding, highest quality guitar you can afford.  Perhaps the difference between a $2,500 guitar and a $10,000 guitar is a matter of nuance or pride, or whatever.  But the difference between a $400 guitar and a $2,500 guitar can be like night and day.  A $400 guitar might feel boxy.  It might make you work for every note you play.  While a higher quality guitar draws you in.  It's easy to play and makes you want to play.  And the sound...there's usually no comparison: nasally versus rich and full.   In a perfect world, guitar players would be rewarded with increasingly higher quality/better sounding guitars as they increase their skill level.  And also in a perfect world, some guy in Japan wouldn't have hundreds of sweet, vintage guitars hanging on some wall instead of being in the hands of the people who are making music.  I played a $700 Ovation for over a decade.  Wrote some good songs with it, songs that get played on the radio around here.  Then I bought a high-end Larrivee, and you can count on one finger the number of times that Ovation has been out of its case since my SD-50 arrived.

[Calvin]

Snob factor is one thing.

The customs do sound better in most cases, but not by much at all.  But if that last 5% is worth the money then go ahead.  And if you got the money why not.  Even if you are a beginner, but have the money to blow, why not.  Point is, they are better, but you have to decide if that extra bit is worth 4x the price.

[el guitana]

I bet there are not a whole lot of people who can really answer this question.

Perhaps, Grass-hopper, that IS the answer!

I have a classical made by a "small" luthier. I guess his asking price would include it in the "botique" category, but he is not so well known. (I got it really cheap at a GC). I can say that the playability is great beyond any other guitar I've tried, and the tone and balance are amazing. Couldn't say how it compares to other botique guitars...just don't have the experience with them.

[dodge]

if you want some more info on this topic i suggest doing a search on the AGF forum. This topic got a lot of response over there custom v's production guitars, especially with the rising popularity of a custom builder called trevor Kronbauer, apparently he builds boutique guitars at production guitar prices.

[mazareth]

Aside from the fit and finish already mentioned, going with a small builder gives you a lot more options with wood sets, neck width and profile, inlays, etc.

My experience is limited to an early 80s Olson dread, several MacPhersons, and a Huss & Dalton D-RH. My favorite was probably the H&D. It had a very complex yet open sound for a newer guitar. I was less enamoured of the V-neck, which felt a bit chunky when switching back and forth between my D-09 and the H&D.

I definitely agree that the law of diminishing returns kicks in around $3000. Think about it... Assuming the woods and overall specs are roughly the same, what does the price difference between an H&D or Northwood on an Olson, Ryan or Petros really get you. I'm guessing that for most of us players, the sound in the thing. I don't really care what the name on the headstock is if I'm getting the sound I want out of the guitar. No offense to anyone who can afford a $10,000 guitar, but at some point I think a person really is paying a premium for the name inlayed on the headstock. I doubt whether I could pick out the Olson blindfolded out a group of guitars from some the more reasonably priced small builders...

Sorry about the rantish tone, but this is something I wrestle with a lot in all areas of my life--not just gear!  :huh:

[Ratishna]

It is true that around $3K and upwards, there is less to distinguish specific makes in terms of tone.  But there are buyers at almost any price level and the thing to do is to decide what you want in a guitar, how much you have to spend, and then go get it.  Whether its $900, 1200, 1800, or 2500, you shouldn't be disappointed because you can get an excellent instrument at those price points.

Sometimes its hard to wrap your head around the notion that there are people out there who can drop $6K on a guitar without even thinking about it.  But that doesn't make them better players or better people.  They just live in a different economic environment from the rest of us.

E. Shoaf

[Peter Cree]

I've got a few.  And played alot. 

Depending on the guitar it can make a huge difference.   But with that in mind I've got a couple of inexpensive guitars that more than hold their own.   My 30.00 1925 Radiotone is one of my best guitars of all time.   My 650.00 , 000-15s is as well.

For the most part the fit and finish is far worse than the factory mades.  Its all in the sound.  Try a Sheppard or a Sexauer or one of David Whites Celtics and WOW.   they are amazing.  The words "I never thought a guitar could sound so good" do slip out of your mouth.

Whether its worth the extra bucks has to do with your budget.  and your skill level.

[jimmyd]

Interesting thread and comments. The dimishing return theory is hard to argue with unless you have the means to see little difference between $3K and 15K as both being a small amount of money. My thinking is that 90% of what makes a guitar sound and play like a guitar is present in most instruments. The last 10% is sectored into a lot of increments. Factory guitar manufacturers have a different criteria for producing their product than independent luthiers and small shop builders. Factories concentrate on building volumes of instruments that are constructed exactly the same day in and day out in the most efficient way possible that have  pretty consistent performance. Small shop/independents are focused on making each instrrument they build sound as good as they can make it by paying attention to all of the variables in the tonewoods for a given instrument and charge a premium for the individual attention and extra hours they put into construction. Large scale builders can not produce a competitive product if they took that approach to every instrumenty they turn out. I'm  glad that Larrivee can produce such nice guitars for the price. I really like my D03R. I'm also glad that Huss and Dalton can produce the instruments they do for the price they charge. I really like the dreads that I own. I see no reason to view these two makers conpetitively.   I've heard judgements about factory vs. boutique and found snobs on both sides of the fence. I don't subscribe to the notion that one is "better" that the other.  Many opinions I hear are often based on emotional investment rather than objective criteria. I guess we as a group are very passionate about our instruments and identify strongly with them and we all have a right to an opinion. Here is a link that I liked.
http://www.dreamguitars.com/handmade.htm

[djsonovox]

RECORDED VS. LIVE SOUND

I played some of the greatest guitars around. Up in Sonoma at Larry Klein's there was this Kestrel by Rick Michelletti. Wow! It roared like a lion. Then, In the Guitar Gallery in Gilroy, I played all their McPhersons. Holy smokes! To die for.  But then, when you hear the sample CD McPherson gives out, it's lie ho-hum, wake me when it's over.

So if your goal is to lay down tracks, just get something like a $200 Yamaha FG700S and mic it properly...the radiating tone and diaphragm rumble of these 3 to 6 thousand dollar guitars is available only when being strummed, and mics and recording media don't really capture that!

In a sense, it's tactile thing, too. The smooth satiny feel of my D-03R always cheers me up and sooths the daily cares away.

D Jones

[ronmac]

Interesting comments, Mr. Jones. Although I don't agree that you can record a $200 guitar and make it sound as good as a $5K guitar, your argument has some merit.

It is almost impossible to capture the nuances of a fine instrument with a pickup system on stage. For me a stage guitar is one that a) will stay in tune; b) feel comfortable to play; c) not sound too bad running through the PA. For this purpose there are a lot of contendors for less than $1K.

In the recording studio it can be equally frustrating to capture the nuances of a fine instrument. Unless you have a) a very nice room (Don Ross found one in Germany that he likes to record in); b) access to some very high end, well maintained gear; c) a producer with a good set of ears, it is a frustrating experience.

The more expensive sounding instrument will almost always sound better to you, but it may not be possible for you to convey that difference to your audience.

[saffron_boots]

Have a read through Ervin Somogyi's article entitled "Some Thoughts on the Differences Between Handmade and Factory Made Guitars" http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

[fitness1]

[quote author=ronmac link=topic=10097.msg90543#msg90543 date=1139431662

The more expensive sounding instrument will almost always sound better to you, but it may not be possible for you to convey that difference to your audience.

well said Ron....I've been caught in that vacuum for a while now.   About six years ago I had a "vintage" ('89) Taylor 512c with a 1 7/8 nut.   I LOVED that guitar, that is until I played my first Larrivee OM-05.   I found the Taylor had mellowed so much over the years that the treble had lost it's liveliness, so, with much pain, I let it go.  The guitar miked so easily and I never had a problem performing with it.   In the years since, I have had some wonderful instruments, but have had a heck of a time attempting to get a live sound I'm happy with.   It's kind of a paradox, and it makes you crazy

[jimmyd]

Have a read through Ervin Somogyi's article entitled "Some Thoughts on the Differences Between Handmade and Factory Made Guitars" http://www.esomogyi.com/handmade.html

This is a great article. I think Orsino had posted the link to it a long time ago. I couldn't find it. Thanks for posting it . Excellent reading.

[unclrob]

In in the hands cheap or factory made or lovingly hand built.

Good mic technic is an art in its self.
play and buy what will make you pick it up an enjoy it.






:GRN>

[fitness1]

Rob, your over 4000 buddy.....bejesus, that's a lot of posts around these parts!!!!

[unclrob]

Dang I hadn't noticed.OK I'll say it before someone else does I gotta a big mouth,always putting my 2 cents in.I know a few who ask that I just shutup. :GRN>






Do I get a Forum T shirt now,How about it Zach..........

a pix of a big ole open mouth on the front and on the back 4000 and still going strong or maybe the same front and on the back "somebody stop him"

[Randy_R]

Dang I hadn't noticed.OK I'll say it before someone else does I gotta a big mouth,always putting my 2 cents in.I know a few who ask that I just shutup. :GRN>






Do I get a Forum T shirt now,How about it Zach..........

a pix of a big ole open mouth on the front and on the back 4000 and still going strong or maybe the same front and on the back "somebody stop him"

[ronmac]

Hey, Randy's offering looks like a pretty nifty "stop smoking" device too.

Congratrulations on meeting this milestone, Rob. It's hard to imagine what this Forum would be like without you.