Cedar is back on the menu!

[BlueBowman]

After spending the last three weeks with this guitar, I thought I'd share it with everyone.  It's a 00-28vs (12-fret) in cedar/mahogany. The following pics are quite good, but I'll upload my own if anyone would like to see additional ones: https://www.bailieguitars.com/vs04-033

Marcus Bailie is a builder out of Washington state. Judging by this guitar, he's going for the fingerstyle thing, and - boy - did he really nail it here. The warmth of cedar blankets each note, but there's still plenty of clarity and crispness to the tone. Powerful, responsive, projecting, the midrange doesn't quit. It plays so powerfully up the neck. A fingerpicker's delight  I also think the short scale is winning me over (and not just with this guitar), and the "soft glow" finish strikes just the right aesthetic with the wood, IMO (hard to see in pic). His wooden rosettes are a nice signature style for his guitars. Be sure and zoom in on those. Looks beautiful in person.

I'm digging it. Digging it so much, in fact, that I've approached Marcus about a possible commission with him. This cedar/mahogany guitar leans towards the "drier" side of tone, so I thought it might be nice to have a 00-12 fret representing the other side of things: overtone central  I really love the look of his 00-12 fret with the cutaway, as seen here: https://www.bailieguitars.com/vs02-030

Very classy. For that guitar, I was thinking maybe a softer spruce, like Euro or Engelmann (possibly even cedar, which would make for a very interesting comparison!) combined with a dense back and side wood (or go the other way with maple, which is a back and side wood I've really come to love). But I'm still in talks with him about all that...and clearly undecided   

Anyway, I just wanted to shout out one of his guitars. It's a dynamite little 00. I'm so impressed by all the solo luthiers out there building great guitars. So many unknown ones. This guitar deserves a moment in the spotlight. Thanks for reading!

[StringPicker6]

Gorgeous guitars!!!

[BlueBowman]

Thanks, Stringpicker! It's a lot of fun to play.

I've not had a non-ebony fretboard on a guitar in dang near a decade. It's really taking some getting used to! Almost wish I could dye it black just so it would look "normal"      

[StringPicker6]

I always liked the look of rosewood fretboards on gibsons, so i really like that look on that Bailie!

[BlueBowman]

I always liked the look of rosewood fretboards on gibsons, so i really like that look on that Bailie!

I guess I just outed myself in my severe lack of Gibson ownership!

[William2]

I really like the looks of that instrument. And i like his site also. I like it when a builder offers a lot of information including pricing for their instruments.

[B0WIE]

 Not sure if we say congrats or if it was just one you were test playing? Sorry, maybe I misread.
I've really like cedar w/ mahogany. I think the tendency is to take everything in the same direction and pair cedar with rosewood, which is wonderful, but in some instruments I love the tightness and response the mahogany can offer a cedar top. Really lets the magic of the cedar speak.

[BlueBowman]

I really like the looks of that instrument. And i like his site also. I like it when a builder offers a lot of information including pricing for their instruments.

Thanks, William. Maybe this will nudge you into giving cedar a go    I agree he's done a good job laying out his website.

Not sure if we say congrats or if it was just one you were test playing? Sorry, maybe I misread.
I've really like cedar w/ mahogany. I think the tendency is to take everything in the same direction and pair cedar with rosewood, which is wonderful, but in some instruments I love the tightness and response the mahogany can offer a cedar top. Really lets the magic of the cedar speak.

I could've done a better job in explicitly stating the cedar/mahogany guitar is mine. Yes, it is. Probably also confused things by jumping right into a possible custom build with him. Sorry for the confusion. 

I dig this wood combo, too. There's something so dynamic in these guitars. I think you're right that the mahogany, being a light and less dense wood itself, "let's" the cedar do most of the "talking." That's a great way to put it. So very quick. This is my third cedar/mahogany guitar; all three share that same DNA in having wonderful dynamics across the fretboard.

For a fun factor, I think cedar is 3x more fun to play than a similarly spec-ed spruce-top guitar 
Slightly more serious, I really do think it's easier for a builder to hit the mark on dynamics (not tone) using cedar instead of spruce. I remember reading on the AGF a builder, I believe it was Bruce Sexauer, commenting: "building with cedar is like cheating." It sure seems true when it comes to the dynamic range of a guitar.

[B0WIE]

 I really agree. I think cedar has been overlooked because people were mostly flat-picking dreads for decades and that's just not where cedar excels (pardon the generalization). I've found that, particularly in smaller guitars, the flex of the cedar allows the top to do so much more. I think that may be the "fun" factor. It is for me.

 Interesting that it's your 3rd cedar/mahogany!
I've found that dynamic of letting the top speak is something that continues to interest me more and more. I think it's what drew me away from spruce guitars. It's sort of the opposite of where most of us begin our acoustic journey where we become fascinated with rosewood and how the back contributes to the sound. These days, I like the back to chill while the top communicates what my fingers are doing. A really resonant back, as wonderful as that can be, can sometimes muddy that up. My tastes may change in time. And, it's fun to generalize about woods but I never want to give the impression that I think these things work by themselves. It's really the builder.

[BlueBowman]

I really agree. I think cedar has been overlooked because people were mostly flat-picking dreads for decades and that's just not where cedar excels (pardon the generalization). I've found that, particularly in smaller guitars, the flex of the cedar allows the top to do so much more. I think that may be the "fun" factor. It is for me.

Yes, this particular cedar top flexes as much as I've seen a 00 top flex. The top and back go "BBOOOOOOoooonnnnng" when tapped. Almost always a good sign, IME   

Interestingly, he used hybrid X bracing in this particular guitar: scalloped (deeply) main X with lower, tapered tone bars. I always enjoying seeing how different builders "solve" the bracing issue. So many ways to get there!

Interesting that it's your 3rd cedar/mahogany!
I've found that dynamic of letting the top speak is something that continues to interest me more and more. I think it's what drew me away from spruce guitars. It's sort of the opposite of where most of us begin our acoustic journey where we become fascinated with rosewood and how the back contributes to the sound. These days, I like the back to chill while the top communicates what my fingers are doing. A really resonant back, as wonderful as that can be, can sometimes muddy that up. My tastes may change in time.

I love the back's role in the guitar (the whole "reflective/non-live" vs "live" back debate). I've owned both, and I appreciate both. I wonder if maybe you're going for a more articulate and exact sound these days, because that's what I the hear less resonant backs doing (regardless of wood species). There's the feeling that the notes are immediately present, which makes sense if the back isn't moving much. Conversely, the highly resonant backs can be a little slower to respond to certain styles of play. It's for that reason I sold off all my big guitars. Smaller guitars, even ones with resonant backs, tend to be "speedier" than their bigger counterparts -- a really nice quality. 

I still have a deep love for my spruce guitars. Tonally, and when spruce is at its best, it's tough to beat; but like I said above, I think it loses a step to cedar in the dynamic range (an imperative for we fingerstyle players!).

And, it's fun to generalize about woods but I never want to give the impression that I think these things work by themselves. It's really the builder.

Definitely. Woods have certain general characteristics, for sure, but there's so much overlap, always tough to say anything definitively. To own a guitar that's truly "optimized" -- however one wants to define that -- a great builder is the sure fastest way to get there. 

[John in Charm City]

interesting thread and congrats Blue.  After several rounds I'm starting to think Cedar works better with EIR for me.  I frequently play with bare fingers and cedar/mahog can certainly be challenged in the sustain, bass and volume categories.  completely different animal when using a pick which is how I generally use my cedar/mahog larrivee.

of course, I have no doubt that within the next couple of years I will stumble on a guitar that will completely change my view yet again.  thats the beauty of this stuff.

so congrats and enjoy!

john

[BlueBowman]

interesting thread and congrats Blue.  After several rounds I'm starting to think Cedar works better with EIR for me.  I frequently play with bare fingers and cedar/mahog can certainly be challenged in the sustain, bass and volume categories.  completely different animal when using a pick which is how I generally use my cedar/mahog larrivee.

While the sustain is certainly not at a 10/10 on this particular cedar/mahogany guitar, it's far from short (you're probably right that it would be longer with a rosewood B/S). However, the volume and bass are top notch to my ear. In fact, this little 00 might be the most powerful guitar I own at the moment, out-doing my favorite Collings -- which was a surprise to me, being a bigger guitar (though it does have amazing sustain). 

of course, I have no doubt that within the next couple of years I will stumble on a guitar that will completely change my view yet again.  thats the beauty of this stuff.

Indeed! My tastes change as I discover new builders, too. Funny enough, my longest running favorite maker is probably Larrivee.

so congrats and enjoy!

john

Thanks, John!

[B0WIE]

I wonder if maybe you're going for a more articulate and exact sound these days, because that's what I the hear less resonant backs doing (regardless of wood species). There's the feeling that the notes are immediately present, which makes sense if the back isn't moving much. Conversely, the highly resonant backs can be a little slower to respond to certain styles of play. It's for that reason I sold off all my big guitars. Smaller guitars, even ones with resonant backs, tend to be "speedier" than their bigger counterparts -- a really nice quality. 

 I believe so. When I really started focusing on my ability in the last year or two, and getting confident enough to do jazz, I found myself wanting to be able to express more. It reminds me of my vocals, when I started getting training and developing a good voice, I began using less reverb and wanted my voice to sit on top of the music. With my playing, I've found immediacy in a guitar is important to expression. When I can get it all in the top wood, in a mid to smaller sized guitar, there's less blurring and fattening from the back. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE that smearing and thickening on the sound when strumming. The first several nice guitars I bought were all about that "bigger is better" pursuit and I still enjoy that sound. But, most of my time right now is with 00 guitars with non-spruce tops. Likewise, in an electric guitar, I've gone to single coil pickups, less effects, old-school simple-circuit amps. All the things that let the fingers be heard.

[BlueBowman]

I would imagine you're a fan of classical guitars, Bowie. And like me, you're currently enjoying acoustic guitars that lean more towards the classical side in their response and tone. I definitely get it! If I could find a SS acoustic that had trebles like a classical, I'd be over the moon.

Those little 00's have me smitten as well. It doesn't escape my notice that they are roughly the same size as a classical guitar either. I know most people might find it counterintuitive (in comparing a 00 against a bigger guitar), but I'm finding I just get more of everything from a 00 size. The bass is not as expansive as a good big guitar, but it is sufficient for me, and it can be bigger than most people would think on a well-made 00. But the mid range and trebles up the fretboard....lord, have mercy! That's where it's at for me.

Also, in regard to that "immediacy," you might wanna check out guitars built in the Trevor Gore style (falcate-braced, stiffer sides, etc). I've only played two from different builders, but the velocity of sound -- the quickness in the rise of the note -- is about as fast as I've played. The tonality is changed from a more traditional sound, but they sure are fun to play. Fastest guitar in the West ;)

[StringPicker6]

On reverb there is currently a larrivee OM-03r listed with a cedar top.

It's been extensively documented that the OM-03r is one of the most perfect guitars ever created. Just sayin'.

[B0WIE]

I would imagine you're a fan of classical guitars, Bowie.

Funny you say that. Yes, I think classical is the ultimate expression of guitar. Strangely, I end up playing mostly classical type stuff on acoustic and electric though. I have a very nice classical. My finest guitar actually. I mostly play the steel strings, even though I don't love steel strings, lol. I think it may be the forgiving nature. Classical leaves you naked, it doesn't fill the empty spaces. Steel strings just ring and give you plenty of opportunity to fake it. So, it must me laziness.

[BlueBowman]

On reverb there is currently a larrivee OM-03r listed with a cedar top.

It's been extensively documented that the OM-03r is one of the most perfect guitars ever created. Just sayin'.

I'm a huge Larrivee OM enthusiast. And one with a cedar top? A Larrivee fan should jump on that. If I could convince the company of anything, it would be to build with that wood more often.

Funny you say that. Yes, I think classical is the ultimate expression of guitar. Strangely, I end up playing mostly classical type stuff on acoustic and electric though. I have a very nice classical. My finest guitar actually. I mostly play the steel strings, even though I don't love steel strings, lol. I think it may be the forgiving nature. Classical leaves you naked, it doesn't fill the empty spaces. Steel strings just ring and give you plenty of opportunity to fake it. So, it must me laziness.

Haha, well put. No sustain to hide under! They definitely make us earn it!

I agree with you about the classical being the height of guitar expression, especially for fingerstyle playing. I had my "oh, no" moment after I bought my first good classical guitar. Playing that thing for a week rendered my SS acoustics...lesser instruments. Quite the perspective shift. I even had a "well, I guess now I'm selling all of my acoustics off" moment, but, thankfully, it was fleeting and passed. When I came back to them, just like you say, the sustain went on FOR DAYS. And, you know, on a great acoustic, the bass and mids can get in the ball park, but I've yet to play ANY steel string guitar that has the trebles of the best classicals. No competition. I've been searching ever since for one that gets close. Ironically enough, and bringing us back full circle to the topic at hand, it's the smaller cedar-topped guitars that seem to get the closest.

I just pulled a rabbit out of a hat with that thread drift and subsequent course correction! 
Not that it matters! I enjoy thread departures of this kind.