Thumb Over technique

[William2]

I wonder how many players use this technique of bringing then thumb over the neck to play bass notes. I've always played using a classical left-hand technique. I enjoy the playing and arranging of Duck Baker. About a year ago I worked out one of his arrangements using my usual left-hand technique. I eventually let the piece go. Recently, I listened to Duck on some videos noting his use of the thumb over playing technique. I've returned to this piece and am now relearning it using the thumb on the bass notes. I am enjoying this technique and find in some cases it advantageous for sustaining some voices in chords that can't be held otherwise. And I am starting to rethink my fingerings on pieces I already know. I will say that I prefer the 14-fret instrument for its sound and find that this technique works better on a 14-fret instrument than a 12-fret instrument when playing up on the high frets. And while I can play this way on all my instruments, I do find the 1 & 11/16th inch nut width an advantage having only normal sized hands. Anybody have any thoughts on the thumb over technique?

[Queequeg]

I've been using the 'thumb over' technique for decades, knowing full-well it does not conform with bona fide classical guitar orthodoxy. I'm OK with that. It works for me.
I think all my guitars now are 14 fret and 1 & 3/4 nut width. My hands are probably med/lg.
For the most part I subscribe to whatever works best. I know there are some exceptions to this, and certainly there are some techniques that are not recommended.
For someone just starting out, sure, go with the proven methods for holding the instrument, posture, left hand and right hand guidance, all of that.

Plenty of time to develop bad habits later. 

[teh]

I agree with Queequeg, i.e. do whatever works best for you. I think we were given an opposable digit on each hand for a reason although Segovia would probably be rolling over in his grave if he read this thread.

One other thing that helps my playing and frees up my left hand is using open tunings including drop D, double drop D, Open D and Open G. I also have a Shubb C7b partial capo to cover the 5-4-3 strings or the 2-3-4 strings at the second fret.

My guitars are about evenly split between 14 fret and 12 fret necks and all but two have a 1 & 3/4" neck. Three are short scale (24 or 24.9) and the rest are a 25.5" scale length. The open tunings generally sound better on the guitars with a longer scale. My two L bodied Larrivees also have a Venetian cutaway which makes playing up the neck a breeze.

[B0WIE]

I will for things that specifically call for it. I won't do it when I can avoid it as I find collapsing my hand like that really slows me down as I go into the following notes. And, it doesn't feel very good to me. But, I do it occasionally.

[StringPicker6]

I'll sometimes do it for barre chords like F, but then I feel like I'm holding the neck like a hammer or something.

[skyline]

For the most part I subscribe to whatever works best.

Absolutely!

For me it is frustrating trying to play some Bruce Cockburn tunes. Cockburn is a "thumb over" player - and in videos his fingers and thumbs look way longer than mine.

If I get my hand into a position where I can fret with my thumb, the rest of my fingers seem to be too short, to do anything relevant, so if I'm trying to learn something where the original composer was playing with "thumb over" technique, I'm pretty much forced to take a different approach. Almost invariably means a heavy workout for ye olde pinky.

Segovia would probably be rolling over in his grave if he read this thread.

Maybe not.
Segovia was often working out transcriptions of music that wasn't written for guitar. Or elase playing pieces written for guitar by composers who worked on 2" flat fret boarded guitars.  Most classical guitar pieces are arranged for standard tuning and often use full or partial barres that even if he could wrap his thumb around, as Bowie says, the constant left hand shifting would really slow things down.

[B0WIE]

Absolutely!

For me it is frustrating trying to play some Bruce Cockburn tunes. Cockburn is a "thumb over" player - and in videos his fingers and thumbs look way longer than mine.

If I get my hand into a position where I can fret with my thumb, the rest of my fingers seem to be too short, to do anything relevant, so if I'm trying to learn something where the original composer was playing with "thumb over" technique, I pretty much forced to take a different approach. Almost invariably means a heavy workout for ye olde pinky.
Maybe not.
Segovia was often working out transcriptions of music that wasn't written for guitar. Or elase playing pieces written for guitar by composers who worked on 2" flat fret boarded guitars.  Most classical guitar pieces artten for standard tuning and often use full or partial barres that even if he could wrap his thumb around, as Bowie says, the constant left hand shifting would really slow things down.

Funny you say this, I just posted something in the 50/60 Series Headstock thread about this, and included a video. It shows Segovia moving this thumb to adapt to changes in fingering. Segovia (and a lot of high level players) moved the hand as necessary and didn't/don't plant the thumb. I am not bothered by 12 fret guitars because I learned, watching Segovia, that there's no reason for a neck joint to stop a person from moving as high as they want up the fret board. We should be pulling the fingers toward us, not pinching against the thumb. Were his hands not so stumpy, I imagine he wouldn't be opposed to wrapping the thumb if it helped him.

[William2]

I do find the variety of ways the instrument is played fascinating. I don't see jazz or classical players really using the thumb over technique at least the ones I watch. And I wouldn't use it exclusively. A lot of the chord melody arrangements I've worked on by jazz players use the fourth finger as a barre over three or four strings and you couldn't do this playing thumb over. I still haven't decided which way I prefer playing this re-worked piece but the non-thumb over seems more natural for me as I've always played that way. Here is a video of Duck Baker playing a jazz tune on a classical guitar (his most used instrument). He must have large hands as his thumb is always visible even when not using it on a bass note. It does look comfortable, and the thumb appears free.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6eCi3MAkkQ

[B0WIE]

FWIW, I've learned a couple of Duck Baker songs and he must indeed have large hands. My fingers are long enough that a XXL glove is usually tight on me but even I found some of his stretches to be challenging. I don't they're something most people should expect themselves to be able to do.

[William2]

FWIW, I've learned a couple of Duck Baker songs and he must indeed have large hands. My fingers are long enough that a XXL glove is usually tight on me but even I found some of his stretches to be challenging. I don't they're something most people should expect themselves to be able to do.

One of the things that attracted me to Duck Baker is his arrangements whether it be standards, Gospel, or Celtic music. That said, I've never understood many of his fingerings. Many of his big stretches I view s unnecessary and ask why, because you have big hands? And his frequent taking the melody line and not keeping it on the same string for same quality of sound and the avoidance of two notes sounding together (example playing D second string then E first string and then D again. Why not D E D on the second string? I think this where maybe a person's training decides on how a passage should be played. Segovia fingers for sound and I'm used to playing classical pieces with these kinds of fingering ideas in mind. So, I frequently re-finger Duck Baker arrangements and I'm not alone based on videos I have watched of people playing his arrangements. This has also happened a couple of times with the Chris Whiteman chord melody arrangements I play. One example would be where Chris bars the index finger across the fifth fret to get E,C,G, and plays a sixth string F#. Well, it isn't that hard, to me looks kind of hot dog, and I always consider the instrument I'm playing. Chris plays electric so it sounds good regardless. I play acoustic and, on my instrument, it sounds better E,C,G, open first, first fret second string, open G on the third and F$ in the bass with the second finger (open position). Anyway, here is Duck playing his arrangement of Walkin My Baby Back Home. This is the one I'm relearning. It works great thumb over or regular fingering and doesn't have the big stretches as in some of his arrangements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYJO4aB7AoQ

[skyline]

Funny you say this, I just posted something in the 50/60 Series Headstock thread about this, and included a video. It shows Segovia moving this thumb to adapt to changes in fingering. Segovia (and a lot of high level players) moved the hand as necessary and didn't/don't plant the thumb.       
Were his hands not so stumpy, I imagine he wouldn't be opposed to wrapping the thumb if it helped him.

You have to move your hand as necessary - you'd have some extraordinary digits if you could play a 1/2 barre with your thumb in the same place as for a run in octaves or a full barre, etc.

I remember marvelling live at Parkening's left hand shifting - thumb all over the place to give leverage and anchorage for the other fingers - though didn't actually notice a thumb fretting - I bet if he was playing more modern repertoire it might well get there.

Every guitarist would be smart to consider anything necessary to "get the notes"

For those who have thumbs/hands that let them use their thumbs on basses, go for it!

One "note": all the finger tendons go through your wrist, and a lot of hand/body position is chosen by what lets the wrist stay relaxed so the tendons get maximum power and flex. The approach most classical teacher would take is not to "plant" that thumb but to position it where it gives the best support. (it is a rare hand that can make all 6 strings of a barre chord sound when the thumb is up around the neck)

Wrapping the left thumb around the neck tends to make the pinky and ring finger less independent - so that's another consideration.

[cervin]

Compare these 2 tutorials:
https://youtu.be/8pxT-NG5xFY?si=wuQCRloPaIhGx4EN

And
https://youtu.be/-6-QHUMOz2w?si=nKYe2jxvBKEKbU8m

I learned it the Randy Bachman way.   

[William2]

Those were very interesting video comparisons. I'll have to try both and see which way works best for me.