Intonation Variances/issues From Brand To Brand...

[ozrufus]

Hi folks! I posted this over on the AGF, but wanted to solicit the expertise and opinions of this fine forum and its players...

I've owned (somewhat in order) Seagull, Taylor (3 of them), Alvarez-Yairi (3 of them), Larrivee (2 of them), Breedlove (3 of them, one being an Atlas model), and maybe a couple more I'm forgetting at the moment. I grew weary of the sometimes overly-shimmery Taylor tone and explored the sounds and tones other brands of acoustics had to offer. While I still prefer some of the tones I'm hearing from other brands to that of a Taylor, I find myself completely and persistently frustrated by intonation issues. After spending quite a bit of time with my two current acoustics, I went to the local Guitar Center tonight to make sure I'm not losing my mind (or ear).  Picked up several Taylors, tuned right up by ear with absolutely no problems or issues.

I am coming to the conclusion that Taylors have superior intonation to every other brand I've owned or played. While the tone may not tickle my fancy like it once did, I'm discovering that tone means nothing unless the instrument can play in tune with itself properly.

I've done lots of research on saddle compensation, scale length, string gauges, nut slot depth/angle, etc. as I've gone on this journey. Many tackle intonation at the saddle, but I think that it, while necessary, is covering up the true culprit--the nut. There are several aftermarket "systems" that claim to alleviate the problem by moving the nut a millimeter or two closer to the first fret (Buzz Feiten, Earvana, eNut), but any Taylor I play just seems to have it right from the start. Do they incorporate this variance in nut placement where other brands don't?

So, why the big difference between brands? Do these other builders just not hear it? They may intonate perfectly by the ol' open string/12th fret harmonic standard, but once you start chording or play all over the fretboard, things go awry.

I'm seriously considering going back to Taylor for this very reason. Am I being hyper-sensitive here? My ear is driving me nuts!!

What are your experiences?

(Sorry for the long post)

[Fredmando]

I don't think you are crazy. Being a rank rookie in this field, I can tell a difference when I play some guitars next to my Larrivee D-03. It is a great guitar that I often take for granted.
I know of one guitar tech who swears every production guitar needs to be completely looked over and set-up out of the box. He says he finds loose frets, neck problems and saddle/bridge issues with most brands.
I also ran into a guy at First Quality once who told me he could tell how a guitar was built/set up by playing three chords on it. But, he was on his way out of the store and I missed what the chords were. What three chords? I'm thinking one was a G, the other maybe a C?
--Fred

[el guitana]

You're not crazy. A well tuned ear is a two edged sword. You can't find satisfaction in an instrument unless the intonation is as perfect as your ears are capable of hearing. I believe the ear or your brain's capacity to evaluate gets better with time and experience, even as one enters middle-aged hearing loss.

You are stuck with it.

I had a cheap Washburn with Buzz Feiten Tuning System, and it was very accurate. The saddle is also different on those - more offsets for compensation.

I've seen that some Larrivée's (I don't know which) feature a slanted nut - I'm assuming this helps intonation - perhaps someone knows on the forum?

I'm happy that my D-03R intonates well enough for my ear. Might not be the same experience for your ear.

[philster]

the true culprit--the nut. There are several aftermarket "systems" that claim to alleviate the problem by moving the nut a millimeter or two closer to the first fret (Buzz Feiten, Earvana, eNut), but any Taylor I play just seems to have it right from the start. Do they incorporate this variance in nut placement where other brands don't?

Just read where PRS electric guitars have been doing this forever at the nut.  Not as a marketing ploy, in fact they don't even have a term for it.  They just do it.  Claim it makes the all the difference in the world when playing in first position which makes all the sense in the world.  Once you bar across the strings, the nut doesn't matter...  Kind of like partial capoeing.  It only matters until you play a bar cord  :D  

[dbirchett]

Once you bar across the strings, the nut doesn't matter...  Kind of like partial capoeing.  It only matters until you play a bar cord  :D

Not entirely true. If you tune open strings according to a nut that is cut wrong, you will be out of tune when you are fretting. Your statement would only be true if you tuned from a capoed fret, I believe.

[mdrulez]

I agree..I've developed a more keen sense of intonation, and even my larrivee can be out of tune at times.  I remember when slight tuning problems didn't bother me, but now it bugs the heck out of me; I carry around three tuners so I can always stay in tune.  Sometimes I think it's the stock tuners, which I have considered changing, but I seem to think it might even be action and the neck thickness.  I know that Taylors usually have very low action and thinner necks, which allow for easier playability.  I think that higher action might cause one (myself included) to ever so slightly pull strings out of tune while being played.  I've heard of Buzz Feitan, and I've heard it makes a big difference.  If I had an extra 300 bucks or so I'd get it, but it's not worth the trouble.  

Larrivees (on the average, I've seen) come with higher action, as do most other guitars.  Do you think this might contribute to slight intotation (at least on the frets)?

[ozrufus]

Larrivees (on the average, I've seen) come with higher action, as do most other guitars.  Do you think this might contribute to slight intotation (at least on the frets)?

Regardless of brand, nut slots that are too high or action that is too high will cause fretted notes to pull sharp.

Thanks for the opinions, all.  Any more experiences??

[philster]

Once you bar across the strings, the nut doesn't matter...  Kind of like partial capoeing.  It only matters until you play a bar cord  :D

Not entirely true. If you tune open strings according to a nut that is cut wrong, you will be out of tune when you are fretting. Your statement would only be true if you tuned from a capoed fret, I believe.

once you fret a string, the length of string from the fret to the saddle determines the vibration rate of the string and hence the note.  A nut cut "wrong" isn't what we are talking about here, a nut cut within workable variances, is what we are talking about.  There is no such thing as perfection.  Ideally you would retune your guitar every time you switch keys.  Do some reading on tempered tuning.  You'll see it just isn't worth worrying about.

My ears are perfectly happy with normal variances in guitar construction.  wrong, bad, crappy, and just plain f-ed up is another story entirely  :P