fret leveling and " fret fall off"

[Waxer]

I started thinking about this because I get some fret buzz when I capo above the 4 th fret. I stumbled on the term " fret fall off" while researching the Plek machine. Said something about the machine is set so the frets from the 14th to the sound hole would gradually be lower than all other frets. My question is, is "fret fall off" a standard that all acoustics should have. When I lay a straight edge across my fret board I don't see any lowering of these frets.   

[unclrob]

I hope I have this right so here goes.For most guitars the fingerboard has a tendancy to slope down towards the soundhole after the neck joint.You won't see it on many new guitars but you see it on some.It does develope over time though I haven't notice it on either of my 90's Larrivee's.I do see it on the D28 and the mid 60's Gibson J50 that came thru the shop this,also noticed it on a Gibsom CSM from 2011 that I just finished up.Hope this helps.

[GA-ME]

Rob, I think Waxer is talking about someting different than the geometry changes in old guitars.  I believe he is asking about the way the fretwork and setup is accomplished procedurally. Waxer, if I am understanding your question correctly, yes some folks do this when they set up a guitar, myself included. It is a very subtle trail off introduced past the neck join (12th or 14th) on a guitars frets. Once the initial fret leveling is complete, you can take a shorter leveler and introduce a slight taper to the frets so they gradually trail off along the fingerboard extension. I also introduce the trail off in the fingerboard itself when leveling it on a refret. Now whether this technique is the solution to your buzzing, I couldn't guess without having the guitar in my hands. Lots of different things can cause buzzing as you travel up the neck and it is essentially a process of elimination to diagnose what to do to fix buzzing on a particular instrument. Unless you take the time to get a few specialized tools, and lots of specialized procedural knowledge, its best to take the instrument to someone who has both! I have said this before on the forum fretwork is a BIG job. It is not a very difficult job, in the sense that it doesn't require a person be very bright to accomplish the job, but it does require good hand tool skills and you must learn the procedural stuff to carry the job out successfully. As far as whether all guitars should have fret trail/fall off, I'd have to say no. It is simply one of the many ways different techs go about at arriving at the final destination goal: getting the instrument as playable as possible given each instrument's particular quirks...

[unclrob]

OK I didn't see anything about buzz.And if true that this is what they do then that explains why I have dress frets after they have been PLEKED.As you said its not everyone's taste. but good info for me,thanks.

[GA-ME]

OK I didn't see anything about buzz.And if true that this is what they do then that explains why I have dress frets after they have been PLEKED.As you said its not everyone's taste. but good info for me,thanks.

Rob, I am curious to know why would you find it an issue to dress the frets with fall off over the fingerboard extension and to in turn remove the fall off? As far as I can see, there is only benefit to the range of actions that are available to the player by doing so and ZERO downside to employing fall off. Both of my mentors utilize this procedure and between the two of them they have 70+ years servicing guitars, both are authorized Martin Service Centers, and they have refretted literally thousands of instruments between them. I am not saying that every guitar needs fall off over the fingerboard extension, but rather, that it isn't detrimental to ANY instrument to employ the technique.

[unclrob]

Its not me with the issue's it has been the players who have spent the money to get PLEKED.They get the guitar back and I'll quote "It just doesn't feel or play right".When I dress frets  for me at least I want everything level no fall off on my own guitars as I do play up the neck sometime's as do a few of my clients whether they have a cutaway or non cutaway guitar.I'm not saying its a bad thing as I'm sure many like it.Then again not alot of my clients can afford to ship out there guitars to be PLEKED.Also I know there are few companies that use the system in there build process.

[GA-ME]

Its not me with the issue's it has been the players who have spent the money to get PLEKED.They get the guitar back and I'll quote "It just doesn't feel or play right".When I dress frets  for me at least I want everything level no fall off on my own guitars as I do play up the neck sometime's as do a few of my clients whether they have a cutaway or non cutaway guitar.I'm not saying its a bad thing as I'm sure many like it.Then again not alot of my clients can afford to ship out there guitars to be PLEKED.Also I know there are few companies that use the system in there build process.

Rob, I haven't experienced a guitar that has utilized the PLEK system. But speaking for myself, I find it hard to believe that ANY machine can do a better job of fretting a guitar than a qualified tech. The key being "QUALIFIED" tech. Last I knew, it was pretty hard to communicate to a machine the intricacies of player preferences in set-up!

[L07 Shooting Star]

Rob, I am curious to know why would you find it an issue to dress the frets with fall off over the fingerboard extension and to in turn remove the fall off? As far as I can see, there is only benefit to the range of actions that are available to the player by doing so and ZERO downside to employing fall off. Both of my mentors utilize this procedure and between the two of them they have 70+ years servicing guitars, both are authorized Martin Service Centers, and they have refretted literally thousands of instruments between them. I am not saying that every guitar needs fall off over the fingerboard extension, but rather, that it isn't detrimental to ANY instrument to employ the technique.

I agree.  I have leveled frets with and without "fall off" depending on the guitar and how it played.  The only reason I wouldn't do it would be if it played well already and didn't seem to need it.  It isn't detrimental as you say.

Kurt

[unclrob]

GA I myself prefer a good "qualified tech"  .I agree whole heartedly that you can't discuss your wants for your guitar with a machine nor do I think that a bunch of one's and zero's can do what a "qualified tech" can.If I'm not mistaken G+L use a PLEK to level there frets but as always I could be wrong.Also having done alot of setups over the last 47 years.Though I have done a few setups without seeing the player play its is my prefered method to see how someone plays first.
I'm sure there is no harm to having fall off  but I'm fairly sure that most don't even know about it.In my first post I was adressing how the fingerboard dip's towards the sound hole and that when I dress the frets I try not to add too it the that dip by dressing them to compensate for it.I'm also not sure if any acoustic guitars new are being built and having the frets PLEKED before shipping.Also like many in my field I have no desire to be replaced by a robot,though I have always enjoyed "Robbie the Robot" a wonderful actor.

[Waxer]

Ulcrob and Ga- Me
Thank you both again. I hope many people learned something here as I did. I will now be able to talk fall off with the set up shop and know what it refers to.
I may be getting off topic here but once again coming from a reliable source , Ulcrob, a 1990 Larrivee with no issues at the neck extension dipping to the sound hole. I have read that Jean Larrivee has re set very few necks. This is interesting to me. Over sized neck block? No hole in the front brace for trust rod access? What ever it is is Larrivee is doing it right with the dove tail joint and neck extension       

[Waxer]

I am bad with names I missed spelled unclrob

[unclrob]

No big deal on the misspelled name,you can ask anyone here about my inability to spell correctly and I always forget that dang spellcheck button  .Larrivee bracing at the neck joint solve's the problem if I'm not mistaken.Plus it seems that in the construction of the fingerboard they don't roll off the end of the board either.