New Guy Question

[GGBB]

you're going to remove some wood with the nut when you try to take it out

That would sum up my fears about the K&K install.  In my mind, super glue == permanence.  A tiny amount might not be a big enough deal to worry about, but how tiny can you go without compromising the durability & quality of the K&K install?  I wouldn't trust myself to be that careful as I've never had an easy time with super glue, and I wouldn't trust a tech to do anything but err on side of secureness rather than reversibility.  (Sorry to all you techs reading this.  )

[L07 Shooting Star]

That would sum up my fears about the K&K install.  In my mind, super glue == permanence.  A tiny amount might not be a big enough deal to worry about, but how tiny can you go without compromising the durability & quality of the K&K install?  I wouldn't trust myself to be that careful as I've never had an easy time with super glue, and I wouldn't trust a tech to do anything but err on side of secureness rather than reversibility.  (Sorry to all you techs reading this.  )

That's why I had the K&Ks in my 2 Larrivees installed by a tech who had done many of these already.  Even though I likely could have done it myself, that is one job I didn't want to take any chances with.  I was mostly worried about getting them stuck in the wrong location and not being able to relocate them in time if I did.  To me it was good insurance considering it didn't cost me that much to have done.

I agree, superglue is difficult to work with until you get used to using it, which I have at this point.  There are also different consistencies of superglue and different curing times.

[GA-ME]

That would sum up my fears about the K&K install.  In my mind, super glue == permanence.  A tiny amount might not be a big enough deal to worry about, but how tiny can you go without compromising the durability & quality of the K&K install?  I wouldn't trust myself to be that careful as I've never had an easy time with super glue, and I wouldn't trust a tech to do anything but err on side of secureness rather than reversibility.  (Sorry to all you techs reading this.  )

Superglue forms with pretty good bonding strength, but it has a very low sheer strength. If you are handy, and careful, you can pop the transducers off using a simple straight razor, without any wood loss, simply by making use of the low sheer strength. Also, any decent woodturning or luthier supply house stocks releaser for CA glues which can be wicked under the transducers. After a few seconds of the releaser, dried superglues turn to jelly and the transducer will come right off. YMMV...

[GGBB]

Superglue forms with pretty good bonding strength, but it has a very low sheer strength. If you are handy, and careful, you can pop the transducers off using a simple straight razor, without any wood loss, simply by making use of the low sheer strength. Also, any decent woodturning or luthier supply house stocks releaser for CA glues which can be wicked under the transducers. After a few seconds of the releaser, dried superglues turn to jelly and the transducer will come right off. YMMV...

That sounds easy enough.  I've been trying to find some user reports of K&K removals but there's not much out there.  The few that I found are mixed - it's either straightforward and simple without much detail or it's rather a large hassle, quite difficult to do well, and results in at least some damage - often destroying one or more of the transducers and/or requiring sanding the glue off the bridge plate.  YMMV indeed!

[cbarclay]

No offense - but I am a little skeptical.  From what I've read, super glue will wick into the grain of bare wood somewhat, meaning that the only way to get it out completely is to remove the wood.
That's a valid point.  I already have the hole for an undersaddle (Baggs Element) but nothing else - the iBeam is attached using removable adhesive strips - so I'm down that road already.  The undersaddle hole actually bothers me a lot less than the idea of super glue soaking into the surface of the bridge plate.  I'm not being at all scientific here but it just seems like a cleanly drilled hole would have less sonic impact (on vibration) than impregnating the wood with a stiff foreign material - much along the same lines as why many guitarists object to thick/stiff finishes on guitars.  However, a reality check tells me it's likely that both are negligible.

None taken!  I understand why you're skeptical.  I guess how much it matters is subjective. 
Really, what everyone said after this seems to be right on.

[Danny]

Superglue forms with pretty good bonding strength, but it has a very low sheer strength. If you are handy, and careful, you can pop the transducers off using a simple straight razor, without any wood loss, simply by making use of the low sheer strength. Also, any decent woodturning or luthier supply house stocks releaser for CA glues which can be wicked under the transducers. After a few seconds of the releaser, dried superglues turn to jelly and the transducer will come right off. YMMV...

Hobby/craft stores stock the releaser as well.

[Mr_LV19E]

If you put one tiny dot of super glue on the nut where it meets the fingerboard it will pop right off without taking wood, at least that has been my experience.
IMO the K&K is so natural sounding if installed properly that I can't think of a reason for removing it but am sure I could if I needed to.
I'm not saying I wouldn't cut my finger with the razor blade though. 
Here is a picture of the install on my F-III, I had to install the bridge plate extension to have room though.

[GGBB]

IMO the K&K is so natural sounding if installed properly that I can't think of a reason for removing it

It may very well be the best sounding acoustic guitar pickup right now, but somewhere down the line something else will surpass it - maybe the K&K Super-Pure Mini?

[broKen]

It may very well be the best sounding acoustic guitar pickup right now, but somewhere down the line something else will surpass it - maybe the K&K Super-Pure Mini?

Already has,,,,B-band.   

[Mr_LV19E]

Already has,,,,B-band.   

I have the b-band a2.2 dual source on my LV-19 and I think the K&K sounds much more natural. YMMV

[rockstar_not]

I installed my K+K mini pure western in my 1999 vintage L-03.

I followed some install directions that at the time were different than those from K+K.  K+K at the time had instructions to put the 3 transducers in one at a time.

Some on-line resource said to make a little jig from cardboard and some dowels that fit into the e and E bridge pin holes, then double-side tape the 3 transducers to that, put the superglue on them, then locate the dowels and slide the whole jig into place.  That's what I did.

It also recommended covering the top of the guitar with saran wrap first, to avoid any chance of getting super glue on the top.  I did that as well.  Also handy to have a mirror laying in the guitar on the inside of the back - you can see that in one of the photos.

Photos of those steps:  Click on the thumnails to enlarge




My understanding is that the iBeam type pups from LR Baggs are easier to install and remove.  I have no experience with them myself.

[Danny]

  Very good description and pictures.

[tuffythepug]

This site:   www.frettech.com/kk/index.html     shows detailed color pictures of a K & K pure western mini installation using the cardboard jig mentioned above. 
These were the instructions I followed

[Mr_LV19E]

This site:   www.frettech.com/kk/index.html     shows detailed color pictures of a K & K pure western mini installation using the cardboard jig mentioned above. 
These were the instructions I followed

But I used the putty that was supplied by K&K to hold the transducers to the cardboard and also took their advise about putting the treble transducer across from the high E string instead of between the E and B. The putty was kind of messy to remove though.

[broKen]

I have the b-band a2.2 dual source on my LV-19 and I think the K&K sounds much more natural. YMMV

Hey Roger, are the two sources of the A2.2 a UST and AST? Or the UST and mic? Just curious. Glad to hear your conclusion for  K&K. The little experience I have with K&K left me unimpressed. Could have been a bad install though.

[rockstar_not]

This site:   www.frettech.com/kk/index.html     shows detailed color pictures of a K & K pure western mini installation using the cardboard jig mentioned above. 
These were the instructions I followed

thats the site I used.  Now i believe k+k recommends the jig or supplies a jig for tne install.  Havent heard about the putty method.

[Mr_LV19E]

Hey Roger, are the two sources of the A2.2 a UST and AST? Or the UST and mic? Just curious. Glad to hear your conclusion for  K&K. The little experience I have with K&K left me unimpressed. Could have been a bad install though.

The A2.2 is UST and AST.  


Some people use the double stick tape method for installing the K&K transducers, this is what K&K has to say about that.

Superglue vs. "Peel and Stick" Installation
We think that the pickups reach their full potential only when they are installed with as little material
as possible between the pickup and the surface of the guitar. We highly recommend using superglue
gel to attach the pickups because it bonds them to the guitar on a molecular level.
For players who absolutely do not wish to use superglue on their guitar, we also supply some very
thin double-sided tape (for "peel and stick" attachment). Please note that using this method will
result in about 30% loss of volume and tone quality, compared to the superglue mount. If you
choose to proceed with "peel and stick" installation of the pickups, please use the supplied doublesided tape and follow the instructions that come with it.
The superglue gel we supply does not bond extremely tightly and, if necessary, the pickups can be
removed by wedging a scraper blade (razor blade with a handle on one side) between the bridge
plate and the pickup discs. If done correctly, this will not damage your instrument at all.
Please note that removing a superglued pickup may damage the pickup, plus handling these sharp
tools could result in personal injury. Please read and understand the section on removing superglued
pickups towards the end of this manual.

If you click on the underlined K&K link above it will take you to the manual, step 7 talks about placement and steps 8-10 about the putty. At the bottom they explain removal.

[broKen]

Thanks Roger, I would conclude that after hearing everyones' reviews of the K&K, the one I heard was a poorly installed job. In fact I think he used doublestick tape. I used the doublestick tape on the AST b-band with very good results.
Some advice I would give to diy guys,,,before sticking the transducers to the bridge plate, take some duct tape and stick it to the target area a couple times, to remove any dust that might hinder good adhesion.