Tweaking my L-07, an AMAZING and REWARDING outcome

[L07 Shooting Star]

Posting this to solicit comments and wondering if others have had similar results.
I'm getting a bit technical here but I think it is important to this discussion.  Excuse all the measurements.  The crux is the questions at the end.

Some Technical Background:- My L07 is approx. 28 years old and had never been adjusted or setup since I've owned it starting in 1985 except for a slight lowering of the action I did a few months ago (see below)
- It does not have an adjustable truss rod.
- Without strings on, the neck remains (incredibly) almost dead flat with an almost imperceptible up-bow.
- With med. gauge strings, EJ17s to be exact, the relief accurately measured with a precision straightedge over the middle of the fingerboard is .017" at the 7th and 8th fret.  This is a fair deflection from the no-string condition, I believe, and is more than I would like, but I have no control over it other than using different strings.
- The fingerboard drops slightly on the "tongue" portion above the body.
- The original bridge is(was) 3/8" thick
- A straightedge extended over the fingerboard to the bridge met it just slightly below the top of the bridge. (< 1/32").  I made sure the straightedge extended from the main (level) part of the fingerboard and not the tongue.
- A few months ago, I lowered the action a little bit by shaving off some material at both the nut and the saddle.  I was paranoid about going too far and especially having not enough saddle protrusion left.  I don't know what the min. saddle height Larrivee recommends so I left it just over 3/32" based on Martins factory recommendation of 3/32" min. saddle protrusion.
- After the above adjustments, the lowest action at the 12 fret I could get was just over 7/64" on the bass E and just over 6/64" on the treble E string.  The action was OK like this and a little better than it had been for all those years I had the guitar.  It may have got higher over the years, but if it did it was so gradual I didn't notice it.
- The saddle is the original and is made of bone as far as I can determine.

So the rest of the story
Yesterday, I got brave and decided I wanted to get the action at the 12th fret down by about another 1/32".  However, to do this, I would have to shave some more off the saddle leaving it with only 2/32" or less above the bridge.  The only alternative, then would be to shave some wood off the top of the bridge.  I thought long and hard about doing this to my prize vintage Larrivee, but finally decided to hell with it and I did it!

So I brought down the bridge thickness from 3/8" to 9/32" (a total of 3/32" shaved off!).  I then sanded off about 1.5/32" from the bottom of the saddle.  I did not mess with the saddle slot in any way.  Resulting measurements:
- saddle protrusion is now 9/64" (4.5/32")
- string height at 12th fret is 5.5/64" on the bass E and 5/64" on the treble E

I also put on a new set of EJ17s and tuned her up.  There are no buzzes and the action is noticeably easier to play.

NOW HERE'S THE AMAZING THING.  The guitar is MUCH louder than it ever was before.  Not just a little, but a lot.  It was fairly loud already.  I would have to call it a Cannon now.  And the TONE AND SUSTAIN IS BETTER than ever before.  Part of the improvement in tone may be due to the new strings, but the old ones were also EJ17s and weren't all that old really.  In hindsight, I should have tested the new setup with the old strings to make the comparison more accurate, but there is no doubt, the guitar is much louder with more sustain.  It literally brought tears to my eyes (partly because I thought it through and did it myself, I think).

Now, 2 questions

1.  Has anyone experienced this kind of result by shaving a bridge and/or using a taller saddle, etc.  I am blown away by the improvement to an already awesome sounding guitar.  Did I shave off so much as to to risk the structural integrity of the bridge or guitar in general?  

2.  My L-40 12-string is essentially the same guitar only it has an adjustable truss rod.  I'm thinking of doing this to it now since it is a rather quiet guitar with low saddle protrusion.  Does anyone have any opinion on whether shaving the bridge down on a 12-string would be wise given all the extra strain on it?  I'm thinking the bridge thickness in itself doesn't contribute that much to it's ability to stay in place (within reason, of course).

Any thoughts?

Kurt

[unclrob]

Kurt years ago I use to shave the top of the bridge and also notice a slight difference in volumn.Now what I do is pop the bridge and remove it from the bottom so I don't have to worry about the cosmetic appearance of the bridge top.When doing it this way I notice much more volumn and sustain and put it removing the wieght of the wing wood also.I also use this method as a poor musician's neck reset with many happy clients.

Now that I'm posting this I'm sure that someone will jump down my throat for being a bad repairperson BUT WTF,it works and does no harm.

Also it seems your skills as a tech are growing and I'd like to say CONGRATS!!!

[L07 Shooting Star]

Thanks Rob,
In this case I was able to shave the bridge without doing any cosmetic damage because the Larrivee bridge has a nice flat top in the area where the string holes are.  I didn't have to touch the wings at all.  To start with I used a "Japanese Contour Plane" that I got from Lee Valley Tools a couple of years ago.  http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=46321&cat=1,230,41182,46334

Once I got most of the material off and fairly level, I switched to sandpaper on a flat wooden block starting at 150 grit to 400 to 800 to 1000 to get it really nice and level and smooth.  Then I used a bobbing (polishing) compound on a cotton rag to polish it.  It is just as shiny and smooth as the rest of the bridge now and you wouldn't know by looking that I reduced it down.

The good thing is the wings remain just as thick as they were before and only the "meat" of the bridge was reduced.  Plus none of the hassle with removing the bridge and reglueing it, etc.

[flatlander]

I am curious. The general "theory" is lower action, less volume.I was told this is because of the out of phase sound bouncing off of neck/fingerboard effecting string vibration.
Something seated better? Less bridge allows to vibrate more? I don't know. Not good at that stuff. Your guitar does have truss rod, just not adjustable or accessable, like mine. Amazing like yours, that after 30+ years neck is in great shape. I have low action as well. I go thru saddles though. The compensated saddle with thin area off contact
wear down and since I have on hairy edge, have to get new one every couple years anyway. I play hard and flatpick a lot though. Great old guitars.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Flatlander,
Not sure what planets lined up to make this happen, but I'm grateful it did.  I also forgot to mention that I have the K&K transducers in it and the improvement definately translates right thru those transducers into the amp as well.

I'm thinking the added saddle protusion made the biggest difference maybe with a little bit of less bridge mass to make it vibrate more??   And who knows, maybe by sanding the saddle down I inadvertantly improved the contact with the bridge slot bottom.  My saddle is still original and does have some slight notches where the strings sit, but it has stood up well and hasn't worn down that much.  It is very thin, like yours is I assume.  And it is not "compensated", just straight across the top.  The guitar intonates very well with it.  I can detect a slight sharpness in the B string on the low frets, but still acceptable.

I suspect you play yours a lot more than I play mine.  I've had it a long time, but there were times (years) where I didn't play guitar much at all and I have others I've played as well so it didn't get a huge amount of playing time in total.

[flatlander]

What you said about volume is best I could figure as well. I'm almost due for a new saddle. I was thinking I'd leave it uncompensated and see if it makes difference to me.
I tune my B string SLIGHTLY flat as I was taught forever ago, to help it's wierdness. A little flat always sounds better than sharp. It's not perfect even when compensated and if tuned dead on when open will sound a little sharp when fretted. Actually what I usually do is tune it while fretting it at 3rd fret.
And yes my workhorse has who knows how many hours on it. 1000's I would guess. See, average an hour a day (conservatively I think) 365x31 uhm well over 10,000 hours?
Incredible how this guitar has stood up.

[unclrob]

If you pay attention to the the way the strings come out of the pin hole's you can ramp the back side of the saddle to match allowing more string contact with it.Roll the front of the saddle slightly which will help ward off the string notching.This can be done with compensated saddle's also by pyrmiding the top of the saddle on the back side,lots more work as you have to fit the saddle for the slot first but I won't get into details as you need to be a little insane to make them {this may be why I don't make compesated saddle's anymore}.

[GA-ME]

By shaving the bridge, leaving a taller saddle and lower pinholes, you increased the break angle significantly. As to the structural issue, you probably have nothing to worry about given that your final bridge thickness is a skoosh thicker than the 7mm min thickness that Larrivee uses. The only thing you need to pay attention to, since you didn't deepen the slot, is to check the ratio of exposed saddle to saddle submerged. If ya get too much exposed and not enough depth in the slot, you could encounter issues!

[unclrob]

By shaving the bridge, leaving a taller saddle and lower pinholes, you increased the break angle significantly. As to the structural issue, you probably have nothing to worry about given that your final bridge thickness is a skoosh thicker than the 7mm min thickness that Larrivee uses. The only thing you need to pay attention to, since you didn't deepen the slot, is to check the ratio of exposed saddle to saddle submerged. If ya get too much exposed and not enough depth in the slot, you could encounter issues!

Thats why I prefer to take it from the bottom now as oppose to the way we use to do it 30 years ago by taking it from the top.

[cke]

Thats why I prefer to take it from the bottom now as oppose to the way we use to do it 30 years ago by taking it from the top.

This is just to share a feedback I got from  a nameless person - but one who is  shall we say SUPREMELY knowledgeable when it comes to Larrivee guitars. He worried that the wings would get too thin that way. But I am sure Rob judges that supremely well as to not take too much.

I am also convinced that there is nothing inherently wrong with shaving the bridge. Those argue that the geometry would be off are usually wrong if the neck angle to the body is reasonably correct, and it usually is: but right if the neck angle to body is actually very wrong, which it usually isn't.  

[unclrob]

Again too state upfront that someone will call me all sorts of name's and tell me I'm wrong,which is cool with me.I find that all the wings of a bridge are decoration.Look at the hollowed out wings on a J200 or the Yari bridge design that has just the front part of the bridge which is there to hold the saddle then goes into an ebony block mounted into the top of the guitar.For giggles and grin's once a very very long time ago cut the wings off a bridge and just mounted the meat of the bridge which held the saddle and the guitar played and sounded fine.I'm also pretty sure that the Yamaha I did that too is out there somewhere in someone's hands,on a wall or a dump site.

[cke]

Again too state upfront that someone will call me all sorts of name's and tell me I'm wrong,which is cool with me.I find that all the wings of a bridge are decoration.Look at the hollowed out wings on a J200 or the Yari bridge design that has just the front part of the bridge which is there to hold the saddle then goes into an ebony block mounted into the top of the guitar.For giggles and grin's once a very very long time ago cut the wings off a bridge and just mounted the meat of the bridge which held the saddle and the guitar played and sounded fine.I'm also pretty sure that the Yamaha I did that too is out there somewhere in someone's hands,on a wall or a dump site.

I trust you Rob!

[L07 Shooting Star]

After my very succesful result, I wouldn't hesitate to do the shaving-off-the-top of the bridge thing again.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it to my 12-string, but I have to have a real good look at it first.  Of course, there are limits and some accurate measuring, thoughtful analysis, and carefully figured calculations need to be done first.  And the reduced depth of the saddle slot is a concern for sure.  It just seems to me to be so much easier than the alternative of removing a bridge and then reglueing it.  Then again, I haven't removed more than a couple of bridges so maybe once you've done as many as you have, Rob, it's not a big deal.

I think the bottom line is that each individual guitar has to be accessed to decide what method is the most appropriate.

[unclrob]

The best way to do anything is whats your most comfortable with.I think I've popped at least several thousnd after 40 years.