Relief or no relief, that is the question...

[bbb]

    Hi folks, long time since I last posted anything here. Dan Erlewine seems to favor a neck with no relief whatsoever. Apparently, he claims, shops leave some (at times too much) relief as a poor substitute for a decent setup, just so potential buyers don´t get discouraged with any buzzing.
    Not too long ago, I had my PV 09E neck quite straight, except I was getting some back of string buzzing in a few spots. As  per unclrob´s accurate and knowledgeable suggestion (always honestly thankful for your priceless input, unclrob), I added some relief to the neck and fixed about 80 to 90% of the back string buzzing.
    As I´m trying to get the best out of my guitar, and after watching Dan´s video on acoustic guitar maintenance, I went back to a straight neck (no relief) and, voilá, most of that buzzing came back again.
    I guess my question is turning into two: on one hand, I like the relief because when I hit the strings really hard (am I mistaking this with a high action?), the guitar takes it and doesn´t  scream back at me. On the other hand, it seems to me that Dan is making a point that, when a guitar is (as much as possible) well set up, it´ll provide the best possible volume/tone combination. I know that misaligned frets could easily cause the type of buzzing I referred to. But the ones in mine were looked at a short time ago and they´re ok. Are they? There are no signs of high frets or neck curving. Sort of ... I´ll have to learn and live with that kind of back string buzzing unless I follow what unclrob told me. So, my hunch is that a little bit of relief would be ok, but I can´t really understand why and how that affects the difference in sound, with or without relief.
    Therefore, provided we consider string gauge preference and personal taste on action as relative, how would relief or no relief be beneficial or not to our playability and comfort, and obviously, not at the detriment of a good volume/tone? Thanks, Bruno.   

[ffinke]

Relief has always been a mystery to me so I'll stay tuned and maybe learn something, thanks for the question,

f

[unclrob]

OK this will pi** a lot of people off which is OK by me as well as some other things I know I'll be called.Here  goes,you need a certian amount of relief in a neck as well as level frets due to the angle's created by pressing the string to the fret to get a note.The only effect on vol and tone that relief has is if you hit it hard with no relief you tend to hit liter thus producing less volumn and therefore stifling tone.If the frets are properly leveled and crowned you can get by with a minimal amount of relief and depending on your strumming attack minimal bussing.As for shops leaving in relief including too much its because most shops don't have a tech nor do they do anything to the guitar other then taking it of the box and case and hanging it up for sale.I don't want to disagree with Mr.Erlewine but I strongly do.If you have not had a leveling and crowning done to your guitar since buying it I would suggest you do as playing guitar will flatten the top of your frets but it will over time cause low spots and dibits to develope in your frets.Find a tech that know's what there doing and have done a few.Make sure that they don't GO AT your frets like there trying to plan a piece of wood but know that a gentle fileing letting the file do the work not hand preasure relevel the frets and that they know what file to use to recrown them.

[cke]

Relief has always been a mystery to me so I'll stay tuned and maybe learn something, thanks for the question,

f

Relief is a bend in the neck at the center point of the strings between the nut and saddle. (it has nothing at all to do with neck angle). The fundamental tone of the string is the total length of the string so the largest arc of vibration is the mid-point. So the relief gives an open string more room to swing. Heavier strings vibrate with less arc but more volume due to their weight; hence heavier strings need less relief. Vice versa for lighter strings.

The harder you strum the wider the arc to give a louder tone, so more room is needed to keep the string from hitting the fret at it's greatest amplitude. Strummers tend to strike harder than finger players so usually like set-up with more relief.

When you fret you are shortening the fundamental frequency, less arc, and a different mid-point.

[bbb]

That´s why I enjoy this forum. Good and wise opinions keep comin´... and we keep learning... Thanks again, Bruno.   

[Mr_LV19E]

I have to agree with unclrob.  I just purchased the tools to do fret leveling because with 4 guitars it was cheaper to buy the tools than to pay for 4 setups. I may not be fast at what I do but I don't give up on anything until its perfect, or as perfect as it can get. After using a home made device to make sure the neck was perfectly flat I used the stewmac leveling bar with sandpaper attached and was surprised how many frets were low, Plus I had deep divits on the first four frets under the high e and b string. It seemed like I was taking off quite a bit of material to get them level but I persisted and after crowning and then polishing with micro mesh to give them a chrome finish the frets don't look any lower than the other guitars that haven't been done yet. I won't have to worry anymore about taking to much material off.
After stringing it back up I made the initial truss adjustment and played it for a couple days to let it settle then I took out all the relief visible to the human eye (almost). I checked it by holding the string down on the first and 14th fret then I tap the string at the 7th fret and I can hear the string hit the fret but I can't see the string move, this is also how I check my nut depth only I fret the string at the third fret and tap it to the first.
Anyway to get to why I agree with rob. If I didn't have any relief i would probably get buzzing from the string behind where I fret as the string would be touching the other frets.
I play without a pick though and mostly fingerpick and light strumming with my thumb. Someone with a heavier hand would probably need a little more relief, thats why its best to play for the tech so they can adjust accordingly.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Not agreeing or disagreeing with Erlewine or Rob, but if you read Dan Erlewine's suggestions carefully, he does say that he STARTS with little or no relief and then checks for buzzes.  If buzzes still occur, then he slightly increases relief gradually until they go away.   In my experience, with a carefully done fret dressing, (and that means doing it with the neck perfectly flat) I can get most guitars to play without buzzing with a relief somewhere between .004" and .008" at the 7th or 8th fret measured accurately with a precise straight edge across the frets and feeler guages.  These are pretty low numbers.  I've never got one to play buzz -free with zero relief.

[GGBB]

Another benefit to neck relief is that it makes the action more consistent from fret to fret.  At any singular point (i.e. fret) the neck will be pointed farther away from the saddle than with no relief (think of the neck as an arc vs. a straight line), thereby causing the neck to move away from the strings more rapidly at first, increasing the effective string height and reducing buzz.  This permits a slightly lower saddle position without additional buzz at the lower frets.  That translates into lower action higher up the neck, resulting in better, more consistent feel.

[GA-ME]

Relief isn't as complicated as folks are making it. Operationally defined, relief is the mechanical introduction of a bow in the guitar neck. Relief has one, and only one function, to allow for the arc a string makes as it is struck. Strike lightly, less relief is needed. Strike harder, more relief is needed. That is it. That is all there is to relief.

[cke]

Relief isn't as complicated as folks are making it. Operationally defined, relief is the mechanical introduction of a bow in the guitar neck. Relief has one, and only one function, to allow for the arc a string makes as it is struck. Strike lightly, less relief is needed. Strike harder, more relief is needed. That is it. That is all there is to relief.

Wow! I used so many more words. Well done! 

[hatofthecat]

Strings vibrate, bend needed, more or less.

Got it down to 7 words, do I win ? 

Pete

[cke]

Judges?

[bbb]

I don´t think it´s only me, but when I use enough of the capo, the guitar seems to respond a little more throughout the neck when there is a minor relief, though I´m not sure whether it´s technically sound to say that it would have been due to the relief or not. I´m not sure,  but cke´s input seemed to be rght on. That along with all the others. I guess the idea of an arc on the neck seems appropriate. After all, strings are there to vibrate and the very physical shape they assume (when at work) is of an arc, literally mimicking in retrospect, the anticipated curve on the neck, just so we can have a good time playing, and hopefully buzz-free. Thanks again, Bruno.

[Danny]

   Man I need some relief.

[GA-ME]

   Man I need some relief.

Grin worthy!

[Sherm]

My tech, Larry Cragg, swears by a straight neck. He set up my OM-10 with a straight neck and smoothed the frets and it plays like a dream. I do mostly fingerstyle though. When I do strum it with a pick I haven't had any buzz. Last time I was in his shop a couple of months ago to pick up one of my guitars, he had Neil Young's beat up pre-war D-18 on the workbench getting set up to be taken on the road to Farm Aid. Neil Young seems to strum pretty hard and his guitars are set up with straight necks.

Sherm

[GA-ME]

My tech, Larry Cragg, swears by a straight neck. He set up my OM-10 with a straight neck and smoothed the frets and it plays like a dream. I do mostly fingerstyle though. When I do strum it with a pick I haven't had any buzz. Last time I was in his shop a couple of months ago to pick up one of my guitars, he had Neil Young's beat up pre-war D-18 on the workbench getting set up to be taken on the road to Farm Aid. Neil Young seems to strum pretty hard and his guitars are set up with straight necks.

Sherm

It is likely that your tech sets your actual action lower than he does someone like Neil. It is a mistake to think of relief as a "general fix" for string buzzing. Many things can cause string buzzing. Relief corrects buzzing that occurs for a very specific reason: There simply isn't enough room between the string and frets for the string to complete its arc, at a given action height, and a given attack.