Forum IV 00-03MT Intonation issue.

[Frank_S]

I have an intonation problem with my Forum IV 00-03MT. I originally had Jim at Trinity install a bone nut and saddle and do a setup before it was shipped to me. I noticed right away that the action was way too high and that it was very hard to tune.
I struggled to enjoy playing it because of both of these issues, but the tuning problem was the worst so I played it very little during the first 6 months of owning it. In September I took it to Gryphon to have a setup done. I thought initially that the
intonation problem was fixed but after I got it home and played it more, I realized that although it was better, it still wasn't right, and now the hi E string doesn't sound right either. The action is great though.

What I am experiencing is that if I tune open chords to sound in tune (even that is a challenge), barre chords further up the neck aren't in tune so I tune to make them sound right, then when I play open chords they sound wrong.
I don't know what I should do, other than take it back to Gryphon and ask them to try again. Any thoughts on what I could possibly try myself? Your input would be greatly appreciated. -Frank- 

[broKen]

Get some accurate measurements of the scale to see if perhaps the bridge is misplaced.

Maybe the guitar received the wrong fretboard.

Just a couple possibilities that come to mind.

[Frank_S]

Get some accurate measurements of the scale to see if perhaps the bridge is misplaced.

Maybe the guitar received the wrong fretboard.

Just a couple possibilities that come to mind.

Hi Ken, Thanks for the response. The tech. at Gryphon actually said that the compensated saddle was installed backwards originally and I think all he did was turn it 180 degrees around and lower the action.

[Danny]

Hi Ken, Thanks for the response. The tech. at Gryphon actually said that the compensated saddle was installed backwards originally and I think all he did was turn it 180 degrees around and lower the action.

OOPS.... That is a bit hard to believe, but plausible I suppose. Yours is the first I have heard of intonation trouble. I have had no trouble with mine at all.
       What gage strings do you use and are you a string bender? Everyone has a different style and can make the same guitar a bit sharp or flat by the grip on the strings. Though that is most likely not your issue.
        Sometimes you see the double( triple ) compensated saddle on some Larrivees and others have the standard B compensation type. You sound to me like the saddle is still incorrect and the scale may be off by the placement of the bridge, nut or saddle as well.
                    Most likely a good tech. can tweak the saddle and take care of the trouble.

[Frank_S]

  OOPS.... That is a bit hard to believe, but plausible I suppose. Yours is the first I have heard of intonation trouble. I have had no trouble with mine at all.
       What gage strings do you use and are you a string bender? Everyone has a different style and can make the same guitar a bit sharp or flat by the grip on the strings. Though that is most likely not your issue.
        Sometimes you see the double( triple ) compensated saddle on some Larrivees and others have the standard B compensation type. You sound to me like the saddle is still incorrect and the scale may be off by the placement of the bridge, nut or saddle as well.
                    Most likely a good tech. can tweak the saddle and take care of the trouble.

HI Dan, I use EJ16's. Trinity set it up with EJ16's at my request and I told Jim the guitar would be a fingerstyle player exclusively and to set the action low for me.
The action was very high and since I live in California, taking it back to JIm wasn't an alternative for me. I did call Jim after receiving it and mentioned to him that the saddle was compensated differently than I'm used to seeing and he explained why, however, as I said when I took it to another tech. he said that the saddle was installed backwards. I can only think that since I'm a lefty, whoever installed it originally just had a minor lapse due to the amount of guitars going through the shop at that time.

The intonation issue can be fixed I think with a little more effort so I'll go back to Gryphon and have the tech. give it another adjustment. I really like the way it plays now, action is perfect.

[Danny]

HI Dan, I use EJ16's. Trinity set it up with EJ16's at my request and I told Jim the guitar would be a fingerstyle player exclusively and to set the action low for me.
The action was very high and since I live in California, taking it back to JIm wasn't an alternative for me. I did call Jim after receiving it and mentioned to him that the saddle was compensated differently than I'm used to seeing and he explained why, however, as I said when I took it to another tech. he said that the saddle was installed backwards. I can only think that since I'm a lefty, whoever installed it originally just had a minor lapse due to the amount of guitars going through the shop at that time.

The intonation issue can be fixed I think with a little more effort so I'll go back to Gryphon and have the tech. give it another adjustment. I really like the way it plays now, action is perfect.

I did a little experiment on my own F-IV today and changed the strings from EJ17's to DR Rare 10-48's. I cannot get it back in tune now at all.
    These are round core strings and will slip if you cut the ends wrong but I even wound the whole string to avoid that problem as well as bending each one past the tuner to stop slippage of the wound portion. When that happens intonation issues pop up. So I may just have some bad strings.
     Any wound string can be slipping and cause issues, but it appears that all of the wound ones are a problem. I have used two other sets on this F-IV with no issues.

    I still think you have the MULTI compensated saddle on your guitar and the tech. may have mistaken it for being installed backwards. So now with it turned around it would throw off the intonation. Even more so if he didn't know how to "tune" the edge on top that creates the proper intonation.
     btw through unclrob advice I have found that being slightly flat in an open string is not so bad. Most fretted strings go sharp anyway, and the degree changes with string type, height and the way each person plays. Even the size of a finger and placement in the fretboard can slightly alter a note.
   This is even more pronounced on badly dressed frets, because the tops are flatter and the position (angle) of the string meeting the fret changes each time you press it. So in that case a good rounding of the fret tops would be in order. I have had issues with frets needing some dressing on my F-IV.

[unclrob]

Just so all know i don't do compensated saddle's as I find no need for them but thats me and about 300 of my clients that agree.




Let the stoning begin,I have my tin foil hat on.......

[Queequeg]

Just so all know i don't do compensated saddle's as I find no need for them but thats me and about 300 of my clients that agree.




Let the stoning begin,I have my tin foil hat on.......

Then how can you ever know if it's in backwards? 

[jpmist]

Am just curious, but how are you checking your intonation? I got my F-IV out and checked it by comparing the overtone at the 12th fret to the fretted note at the 12th fret and they were all was dead on as per my tuner. On my right handed guitar the compensated saddle is shaped so that the low E and the B string is cut closer the the tail of the guitar than the other strings which are closer to the nut. Is that how yours looks? I use standard tuning and I can't help but wonder if an opened tuned guitar would even sound correct higher on the neck since the string tension and scale of the strings have been altered.

One probably far-fetched theory is perhaps the height of the frets and how hard you're pressing the lighter gauge strings might be bending you slightly out of tune? The frets on these F-IVs are way taller than what I've been used to and may be throwing you off. Your high E might be the easiest to bend too tightly to the fretboard, thus the one string that sounds off. (???)

Have never had tuning problems. Use nanowebs. I usually wrap the tuning posts about 2, 3 times at most. Perhaps some kind of lube on the nut might help?

I have an intonation problem with my Forum IV 00-03MT. I originally had Jim at Trinity install a bone nut and saddle and do a setup before it was shipped to me. I noticed right away that the action was way too high and that it was very hard to tune.
I struggled to enjoy playing it because of both of these issues, but the tuning problem was the worst so I played it very little during the first 6 months of owning it. In September I took it to Gryphon to have a setup done. I thought initially that the
intonation problem was fixed but after I got it home and played it more, I realized that although it was better, it still wasn't right, and now the hi E string doesn't sound right either. The action is great though.

What I am experiencing is that if I tune open chords to sound in tune (even that is a challenge), barre chords further up the neck aren't in tune so I tune to make them sound right, then when I play open chords they sound wrong.
I don't know what I should do, other than take it back to Gryphon and ask them to try again. Any thoughts on what I could possibly try myself? Your input would be greatly appreciated. -Frank- 

[unclrob]

Quoting
Queequeg-Then how can you ever know if it's in backwards? The black patch on the inside of coarse.

[Queequeg]

-Then how can you ever know if it's in backwards? The black patch on the inside of coarse.

That's why you're the master, unclrob.

[unclrob]

 

[Danny]

  An update on my lite string change from mediums. My neck settled in and the strings as well, so now it has what I would consider "close enough" intonation.
 The lite strings sink much lower in the Tusq nut however and even more so with my F-III. The F-III is all jangly and buzzing now so it will need a new nut right away.

  Both the F-IV and F-III pass the 12th fret intonation test.

[Flake]

Get some accurate measurements of the scale to see if perhaps the bridge is misplaced.

Maybe the guitar received the wrong fretboard.

Just a couple possibilities that come to mind.

My last two Larrivee's suffered from the above.  The first had a slightly short cut fretboard.  The second had a bridge slightly misplaced.  The result is the same.  A guitar that cannot be played in tune as you go up the neck.
The first required a new freboard.  The second recently had its bridge slot filled in and rerouted.  They both came out very well.  As well as anything I have previously owned.  Not everyone plays up the neck past a few frets.  Not everyone is bothered by a guitar that gets a little more out of tune as you go up the neck.  It does not sound to me like you are one of those people Frank, and I am not either.  If you chase it down and get it corrected you won't be sorry.  The difference is worth it to me even though I spent a decent amount of money out of pocket to get that bridge rerouted.  Had I not gotten the intonation rectified I would not have cared to own either guitar. 
                                                                                            I wish you well-

[BenF]

I had the same issue with my FIII when it arrived.  Jim had installed a bone saddle, which was not compensated, so I shaped it to lengthen the scale for the B, A and E strings, which helped.  It still wasn't great, with particularly A and E strings going very sharp up the neck.

I had a bone nut installed (cosmetically a dreadful job  , but technically spot on), and it is now 100% perfect.  I mean 100%, even tuning down very low (I play a few tunes in BEBEBE, with a capo, playing right up to the 13th and 14th frets, and it stays in tune beautifully)

I find it strange that it could be the nut at fault if Jim installed it on your guitar, he is one of the very best, but I believe that the trip from Jim's workshop to the UK, with a weekend stay somewhere in England over Easter (in really warm wet weather), provided enough climatic changes to move something on my guitar.  Put it this way, I trust Jim, and I trust me, so something changed inbetween.

What I guess is different about the forum guitars from most Larrivees (or any guitar) is that they are finished, shipped to Jim, setup and shipped to you, all within a few days.  The vast majority of guitars have a great deal more 'settling' time before they go anywhere.

[Danny]

   From BenF; "I find it strange that it could be the nut".  This can most definetly be the issue with many intonation troubles. They need to be just right in many ways or the scale is thrown off from the start.

           The placement, slot cut, break angle, tilt sometimes and other issues can totally screw up the set up.

[BenF]

Danny, I was referring to the fact that I trust Jim's nut making skills, whereas mine was the Larrivee factory Tusq nut, of which several on the FIIIs were poorly cut.  I believe the OP had Jim fit a bone replacement.


It is the first place I would look if intonation is really bad, because the margin for error at the saddle end can only really fine tune it.

[Danny]

Danny, I was referring to the fact that I trust Jim's nut making skills, whereas mine was the Larrivee factory Tusq nut, of which several on the FIIIs were poorly cut.  I believe the OP had Jim fit a bone replacement.


It is the first place I would look if intonation is really bad, because the margin for error at the saddle end can only really fine tune it.

Yes, I did realize it was a factory nut. All it takes is a little error though, in cutting the slot and placing a new tusq nut and there will be intonation issues. As well as buzzing and string binding etc. from cutting the slots too deep or too small, or "V" shaped instead of rounded on the bottom. Lots of little items can add up to a big mess right from the start. All a result of not carefully installing and setting up the nut at the factory.
     The result is a nut will need to be made as soon as a new guitar arrives. This is not as easy to deal with as popping out a saddle and placing a bone one back in. Or shimming the saddle with a piece of plastic seems to be the new acceptable method for some. It is not acceptable by others though. ( myself I am in the latter category)

[Michael T]

I had Jim set up a couple different guitars and intonation was spot on (well within 1 or 2 cent) and one of them was a custom saddle/nut 12er with the strings level at the top not the bottom. I can't imagine he would let one slide out like that, but I guess anything is possible. I just have had many guitars set up and his work by far was the most accurate and cleanest. Sorry for your misfortune, if you were not so far away I'm sure he would make it right.

[ffinke]

Because your last tech of record is Gryphon I would take it back there and show them the error. They should be able to correct whatever problem there is in the guitar.

Best of luck. I played a D-18 for years with the same problem and never even knew something could be done to correct it. Never bonded with that guitar but the herd I've got now are terrific thanks to good set ups.

f