Neck Issues on 1985 Larrivee 12-string.

[L07 Shooting Star]

I purchased this guitar from the original owner a couple of days ago.  There is a very slight gap between the neck and the body.  The seller claimed to not be aware of it until I pointed it out.  But who knows for sure.  I chose to overlook the problem (or maybe pretend it wasn't there, given my infatuation with it). 
I bought it anyway knowing about the gap for reasons I gave elsewhere.

QUESTION 1: is a neck reset required or not?  I did the straight edge test and there is a drop of at least 1/16".  See pics attached.  I also accurately measured the gap at several points around the heel with feeler gauges.  The neck is definitely tilted forward.  The gap is widest at the heel cap and narrows down to zero more or less where the neck joins the top of the guitar.  It's also slightly wider at the treble side than the bass side.  One thing that bothers me, but may or may not be significant is the gap is not consistently narrower from cap to top (in other words, not a wedge with perfectly straight sides).  Rather, it gets a little wider at one point along it's length of both sides of the heel.  Suggesting the heel's contour doesn't perfectly match the countour of the guitar's body and has maybe been shaved at some point?  I can't see it coming from the factory that way.  On the other hand, maybe I am just seeing the results of it pulling away and maybe some slightly deformed wood or dried glue?

QUESTION 2:  If I the action can be lowered enough for my needs with the truss rod and/or shaving down the saddle, should I worry about it?  I guess the worst that can happen is the gap may get wider over time.  Of course I will get it checked out by a luthier, but until then, any comments on this would be appreciated.

Not sure I described that very well.  The pics should tell the story though.

Kurt

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[tadol]

You've done a good job of documenting the problem. Now take it to your tech and see if they can get the action adjusted to an acceptable level without even THINKING about shaving the bridge. If they can get it real close between a little relief adjustment and nut and saddle work, then do it and play the snot out of it for as long as you can. If, after some time, the action seems like it is getting worse, re-check all the measurements against those you have now and if the neck has moved, and you're still loving the guitar, then go ahead and get a reset and adjustment. Or, if the tech cannot get the guitar adjusted pretty well right now as it is, go ahead and get it done now.

But I would stop worrying alot about it and play it as much as you can. Get the opinion of a good tech, and keep that in the back of your mind. I doubt its gonna get a whole lot worse in the next few weeks, and maybe not in the next few years -

[Randy_R]

Where's unclrob...    wake up call....   

[unclrob]

With what you have posted about the neck to avoid any further damage tune it down a whole step.Then find someone to reset the neck.Contact Larrivee thru a dealer as they would be the best choice for the job.If that doesn't work for you find someone you trust to do the job.So you know what damage can happen I'll list them below.

1.the fingerboard could crack and twist.
2.the tension at standard 440 could cause the bridge to lean foward damaging the top and also pull the top into a bad belly behind the bridge.
3.If the tension is too much for the saddle this could cause it to push foward and the bridge itself to crack.

I've only had 2 cups of coffee so far and I'm sure if I had it in hand I could give you more bad new's.Get it looked at and get it fixed.


So all know I no longer do neck resets so I wouldn't be the right guy.Were are you located,I could check my book and see if you near someone I know.

[Danny]

   Being a 12 string, what unclrob said would be best, before something really gives.
In the bridge pic you can see a forward tilt already. It will only get worse.

   Be sure to find a "recommended" tech. I had a neck reset done to my old Fender Sovereign that I really like and the guy butchered it. I paid him and began to learn how to repair my own guitars starting right then.

[L07 Shooting Star]

With what you have posted about the neck to avoid any further damage tune it down a whole step.Then find someone to reset the neck.Contact Larrivee thru a dealer as they would be the best choice for the job.If that doesn't work for you find someone you trust to do the job.So you know what damage can happen I'll list them below.

1.the fingerboard could crack and twist.
2.the tension at standard 440 could cause the bridge to lean foward damaging the top and also pull the top into a bad belly behind the bridge.
3.If the tension is too much for the saddle this could cause it to push foward and the bridge itself to crack.

Rob you are prophetic   However, I wish you were wrong this time.  After reading your post, I did an even closer inspection and found some things you warned about are already happening
RE: your point # 1
  - There are hairline cracks in the binding on both sides at the 15th fret.  Seems to me this indicates the fingerboard is bending at that point?
  -  The fingerboard/neck already appears to be twisting!  See the pics.  The nut and saddle are clearly out of alignment by quite a bit.
RE: 2 and 3.  I understand you but if there is too much tension for the guitar to handle at standard pitch now even with light strings, won't that always be the case iven if I get it corrected?  Or is the tension only too much now due to things already begining to let go?
What have I gotten myself into?

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[L07 Shooting Star]

Thank you all for your comments and kind advice.

I feel I must now loosen the strings pronto or risk further damage.  At Randy's suggestion I am going to send the complete suite of pictures to Larrivee today or tomorrow, then contact them to see if they might be able to restore it.  My biggest concern now is the risk of shipping it from Edmonton to Vancouver if that is required.  I am also going to take it to a Luthier here in Edmonton to get his analysis (probably tomorrow).  I regret I can't play this beautiful guitar until it gets dealt with.  I've come to realize it's just too risky.

Finally, here are some pics of the current relief in the neck.  I haven't attempted to adjust it at all so far.

Kurt

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[Dale_I]

...My biggest concern now is the risk of shipping it from Edmonton to Vancouver if that is required...

Kurt - I really wouldn't worry about the shipping of the guitar. Use a commercial carrier (like UPS) and insure it. When you pack it, support the headstock by stuffing supportive material under it and place the guitar case inside a box. You can get some foam to center the neck extension of the case in the box.

I've shipped and received lots of guitars and problems are rare.

[unclrob]

I use Elixer 10-47's on my 12 string and have no problem going from standard tuning to drop tunings on a wim.Once the guitar is fixed there will be no problem.Right now there are weak spots.Also not knowing the history of care prior to you which seems iffy at best.Done right and taken care of which I'm sure you will do you need note worry.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Well here's the latest.  I took it to two places in Edmonton today to have it assessed.  The first person, a Luthier who makes what appear to be very nice accoustics and electrics and also does repairs, said he could fix it by injecting epoxy into the joint and clamping it back down.  This would cost me about $150.00 I didn't like the sound of that idea (the epoxy especially).  I asked him that "if epoxy was used wouldn't it be impossible to remove the neck at a later date if it was ever required"?  He said no YES it would be permanent and seemed to wonder why I was worried about that.  I don't think he appreciated the value or even had much idea about Larrivee's in general.  I told him I would consult with Larrivee directly before I would ever decide to have that done.  He did advise me (as many of you did) to loosen the strings until it was fixed.  I don't think he does resets, at least on Larrivees.  I didn't get the right vibe from him.  Might be we just didn't communicate that well.

I then went to Myhre's Music, a Larrivee dealer (thanks to the recommendation from fellow forumite, "gracem").  The guy I talked to there (Bob) said a neck reset was the only way to get it set up properly.  He did say I could keep playing it for a while if I dropped the tuning to D or C and used extra light strings (just like some of you advised).  He said the saddle could not be lowered as the string angle is almost too shallow already.  I wonder if it has been lowered in the past.

BTW Tadol, I wasn't suggesting I would shave down the bridge, only maybe the saddle.  I would never touch the bridge itself. Or maybe that's what you meant.  Oh well 

I left it there overnight as they are going to do a truss rod adjustment and see if they can bring the action down a bit.  I would normally do this myself, but I don't have the right wrench, and it could be seized or something for all I know.   For the small amount they will charge, it's worth it.

And finally, I composed a rather long explanatory email with the pics I've been posting here to Larrivee (Mike Kitchen) to see what they suggest,  who might best repair it in Edmonton or even if they might repair it at the factory.

Here's some better pictures of the guitar in question.

Kurt

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[L07 Shooting Star]

I use Elixer 10-47's on my 12 string and have no problem going from standard tuning to drop tunings on a wim.Once the guitar is fixed there will be no problem.Right now there are weak spots.Also not knowing the history of care prior to you which seems iffy at best.Done right and taken care of which I'm sure you will do you need note worry.

Hey unclrob, just missed your post.  See my last post.  What do you think of the epoxy idea?

And here are a couple more pics.  I really love the guitar already and will do what it takes.

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[L07 Shooting Star]

And a couple more.  Excuse my neighbors power meter in the background.  D'oh.

Thanks again everyone, I'll keep you posted of course.

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[jeremy3220]

Epoxy doesn't belong in neck joints. I'd bet all he'll do is make the problem permanent rather than fix anything.

[AZLiberty]

It's definitely worth fixing right.   While the neck is being reset, have your repair guy (or the factory) remove the strap anchor from the but of the heel and replace the endcap so it doesn't leave an ugly hole.

[Michael T]

It looks like a great guitar, it is definitely worth fixing "right" and enjoying. It'll take some time but the wait will be worth it. Or, it would to me if it were mine.

[unclrob]

Injecting any sort of glue or epoxy is just wrong.There is no guarranty that it will get in all the right place's.Take your time finding the right person to do the job.I hope Larrivee will do the job.L's make wonderful 12 strings I had an L09 koa 12 string.As always any help I can be please call,email or PM me.I wish I knew some people in Canada I could reffer you too.

[Danny]

  As had been said it is a really nice Larrivee 12r. Definitely worth doing this right.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Injecting any sort of glue or epoxy is just wrong.There is no guarranty that it will get in all the right place's.Take your time finding the right person to do the job.I hope Larrivee will do the job.L's make wonderful 12 strings.............

That's exactly what I thought.  I don't know if he thought I was just looking for a cheaper fix or he was just too busy or preoccupied or who knows.  It's a bit puzzling since he has several beautiful looking acoustics and a couple of electrics that he hand built.  I didn't play any of them, but they look high quality, some with abalone rosettes and trim, etc.  I notice the highest serial # on the ones he had hanging there was #30-something.  He said he has been making guitars for 12 years.

As far as doing it right folks, I'm on it.  Stay tuned.

Kurt

[unclrob]

Just because someone can build a guitar doesn't mean that they know how to fix them.I understand how to build them doesn't mean I can.I have cut bodies for electrics and assembled a bunch.I've rebuilt a few acoustic instruments but I don't concider myself a luthier.Though I know a bunch of repairpersons who concider themselve's luthiers,who I find to be questionable as repairpersons.Neck resets are really tricky jobs because in the end you don't want anyone to know that it was done.There is so much more to the job,its just not removing the neck and reshimming then reglueing.There's the reson why the neck joint failed that needs to be looked for.Did the failure cause other issue's.Is the neck block damaged?Did the block come away from the body and if so why?Me I want to pull the fingerboard and check out the truss rod, make sure its still good.Maybe replain the the neck were the fingerboard joins it.Is there to much/to little curve to it?Has it twisted?Maybe reradious the finger board as it my have twisted.should a refret be done?has the failure of the neckjoint cause damage to the top?Has it caused brace's to loosen?Then theres finish work to be done.The main reason I no longer do neck resets is nobody wants to pay the price or wait for it to be done right.Istant gratifacation is/has injured/killed the craft.

[dee-ten]

Sorry to hear about the neck issues, Kurt. Here's hoping you'll be able to get them all ironed out and enjoy that beautiful guitar to its fullest!