New Larrivee....top?

[broKen]

Hi everyone. It's fun hanging out here. I should be practicing but,,,,

Anyway, I was looking at the FIII Lynda sold recently. The top looks just like the oo-03 I bought a while ago. Danny stated that it was an Italian spruce top. Is that so? Mine is a very light color and wide spaced grain. Can I assume it is Italian?

Also, what is your experiences about spruce tops? I read somewhere that Mr. Larrivee thinks the wider spaced grain spruce produced better tone.  My experience is very limited. Mind sharing your thoughts and experiences?

Thanks,,broKen

[BenF]

The forum III came with either mahogany top or italian spruce.  Mine sounds very good indeed, and also looks fantastic.  It is out all the time so it is maturing into a nice vintage yellowy colour.

I understand that Mr Larrivee has used the Italian Spruce on some of the smaller runs of small bodied guitars, and recall them being used on the 00-03 run.

I, personally, am not very interested in the wide grain v narrow grain argument.  If it sounds good, then what does it matter?

[JOYCEfromNS]

If it sounds good, then what does it matter?

Possibly one reason is that it sounds different BOTH could be viewed as good tho someone may have a preference OR if are unfortunate ( like many of us are ) unable to try before we buy this would be a clue to whether the Git is for them.

[BenF]

but I was under the impression that grain width was only one variable, along with weight, density, stiffness etc. that contributed to the tone, and therefore looks alone could certainly not identify the (potential) tone of a guitar.

[prof_stack]

but I was under the impression that grain width was only one variable, along with weight, density, stiffness etc. that contributed to the tone, and therefore looks alone could certainly not identify the (potential) tone of a guitar.

+1

The boys at UMGF spent a lot of time discussing grain lines per inch, especially concerning the D-18 Authentic.  Pictures of early D-18 guitars show variability of grains per inch that surprised many of the guitar geeks.  Sound-wise they couldn't make any strong arguments for differences based on the grains.

[ducktrapper]

"Italian", "German", "Carpathian", "Alpine" are all names for Euro spruce that may or may not have come from the place it's attributed to. My '75 L was said to be German spruce. One thing for sure, JCL always has great wood.

[JOYCEfromNS]

JCL always has great wood.

So is all spruce Great ie just insignificant

[ducktrapper]

So is all spruce Great ie just insignificant

I was merely attempting to point out that the source of these woods is often apochryphal.  "All spruce" may be a stretch but Adirondack, Sitka and Englemann are all worthy of continued experimenting. 

[JOYCEfromNS]

"All spruce" may be a stretch but Adirondack, Sitka and Englemann are all worthy of continued experimenting. 

[Pickering_Picker]

but I was under the impression that grain width was only one variable, along with weight, density, stiffness etc. that contributed to the tone, and therefore looks alone could certainly not identify the (potential) tone of a guitar.

This is my understanding too, Ben. In my very limited experience from 'way back when, once a luthier planes down a top set and joins the two pieces, he will hold the board lightly in one corner then rap it to hear how it rings. Is it loud or muted? Heavier in the trebles, mids, or bass? If muted, perhaps the top will need to be planed to a thinner thickness than average. If too trebly, perhaps there is a change in the bracing that will serve to compensate.

In theory, one could take either of two directions. Let's say that as a general rule a top with wider-spaced grain produces more mid-tone (or at least fewer "overtones") than a tighter-spaced grain top from the same log at a given thickness. (I don't know if that's the particular issue or not, but there's going to be some such consequence of grain spacing.) A builder could say "this is a particularly wide-spaced top, it's going to tend toward more mids, so I'm going to make a guitar with strong mids, which will appeal to someone who likes that sound."

Conversely, the builder could have a particular sound -- which includes a particular treble/mid/bass balance -- that he always shoots for. In that case, he would compensate for wide grain spacing as needed to hit his desired sound.

My understanding is that Larrivee is of the second school. He has a very particular sound he wants from each style of guitar, and knows just how to compensate for all the variations in tone woods to get that sound. He says pretty much just that in the recent radio interview.

And, of course, there are some cuts of spruce that simply cannot be salvaged by compensation. There may be grain spacing that is just too wide to produce a quality guitar sound. A builder goes to great lengths to avoid buying such wood in the first place. Yet another issue is that there may be some wood that would produce a perfectly good sound but that won't sell because of a myth among guitar buyers to the effect that wood that looks that way can't produce a good sound. I think that to some degree there is such a myth re wider grain spacing, although most experienced guitarists already know it to be a myth.

I was looking at the FIII Lynda sold recently. The top looks just like the oo-03 I bought a while ago. Danny stated that it was an Italian spruce top. Is that so? Mine is a very light color and wide spaced grain. Can I assume it is Italian?

I'm no expert on spruce but you're certainly going to find overlapping variations in both colour and grain-spacing among the various spruce sub-species. My own Larrivee, which I bought used, has a top that is such a dark amber that at first I thought it was at least ten years old. But the store looked up the serial number and said it was an '08. Looking more closely I could see that the finish is still crystal-clear. That piece of wood just happens to be from a darkish log, that I'm guessing is Sitka. In short, I've seen Sitka all over the map in colour from near-ivory to this dark amber.

Also, what is your experiences about spruce tops? I read somewhere that Mr. Larrivee thinks the wider spaced grain spruce produced better tone.  My experience is very limited. Mind sharing your thoughts and experiences?

Thanks,,broKen

My guitar's grain spacing is mostly about 1/16th inch, although there are tighter sections. 1/16th looks to my eyes to be on the wide side of "normal". It's sound is extremely well-balanced and rich in overtones, just as you'd expect from a rosewood L. My guess is that what Jean was getting at is that guitarists should avoid the simplistic idea that a really tight, even spacing -- say a uniform 1/32 -- is ideal. Depending on the intrinsic hardness of the board, that much grain may in fact be too bright. So far as I know, that old ideal of an even 1/32 spacing comes from the European violin tradition. Not only are violins made with thicker sound boards, they would also have historically been made from European spruce, not Sitka. So a tighter grain spacing may be needed in violin building to compensate for those other factors.

[JohnM2001]

Some of the best guitars and mandos I've ever played have had super tight grain at the center seam, with huge wide grain out at the edges.  Not sure if any generalizations can be made from that, just an observation.

[broKen]

Thanks everyone for your input. Like I said, my experience is very limited. My only Larrivee is the only one I've ever seen or held or heard, so I'm very dependent on others. Sure, it sounds great, but before it, I thought my A&L ami sounded great.

Thanks Ben, you've helped. I know it's not of the utmost importance to know what the material is, I just like knowing. And sound is everything.

Years ago I was told that tight grain was the best, so when I received this guitar with the wide grain, I thought, would this sound better with ______? So my questions. What can I say....I'm green! (NOT ENVIRONMENTALLY)

I'll not belabor this any more. But I did find the article in AG mag. Here is the excerpt from the interview with Teja.

Sorry, not sure which issue this is from.  Again, this is an interview with Jean Larrivee in Acoustic Guitar magazine. (hope this is ok to do)

Although Larrivée guitars are available in a large variety of wood options, Jean is partial to his most classic combination: Sitka spruce and Indian rosewood. He cites "elasticity" as the primary reason for his preference on both accounts. "What I mean by that is that it's way more stable when the humidity changes, it's more forgiving than just about any other wood," he says. Larrivée occasionally also uses European or Adirondack spruce, but he's also quick to point out that properly selected Sitka can have similar tonal qualities. He also wishes that players would develop a similar acceptance for wider grain in Sitka, similar to the way Adirondack is now viewed. "Three millimeters [between grain lines] makes by far the best guitar," he says. "Tight grain sounds terrible."

[ducktrapper]

"Tight grain sounds terrible."  I like a man who doesn't mince words.  Maybe it works better if you're making beer or whisky. 

[Pickering_Picker]

"Tight grain sounds terrible."  I like a man who doesn't mince words.  Maybe it works better if you're making beer or whisky. 

LOL!

If I'm converting correctly 3mm is just shy of 1/8th inch. That is wide! I wonder if anyone here as a Larrivee or other solid-top guitar with grain spacing that wide?

[Danny]

Hi everyone. It's fun hanging out here. I should be practicing but,,,,

Anyway, I was looking at the FIII Lynda sold recently. The top looks just like the oo-03 I bought a while ago. Danny stated that it was an Italian spruce top. Is that so? Mine is a very light color and wide spaced grain. Can I assume it is Italian?

Also, what is your experiences about spruce tops? I read somewhere that Mr. Larrivee thinks the wider spaced grain spruce produced better tone.  My experience is very limited. Mind sharing your thoughts and experiences?

Thanks,,broKen

The Italian Spruce tops gave these Larrivee Forum III's a distinct "ring" that I don't hear in the Sitka spruce models. Though I like both spruce top woods and even the mahogany tops as well. I think that this batch of Italian Spruce made some special guitars.
        Ducktrapper is correct about the German and Italian Spruce being similar. It is mostly ''Alpine Spruce'' coming from Europe. This Italian Stash that Jean came across was cut in 1972, so we have some nice aged tops here.
        I'd like to hear Ducktrappers older L model. I bet it is a very special Larrivee.

  As far as ADI tops, so far I can't say that I have played one that really struck me as being worth the hype. I just played a 00-28V Martin with ADI that sounded extremely tight. I know it is a harder spruce so it must take longer to break in. The Italian is harder than Sitka as well and needs a while to open up.
   But I have like my MH/IS F-III from the first time I played it.

[jeremy3220]

but I was under the impression that grain width was only one variable, along with weight, density, stiffness etc. that contributed to the tone, and therefore looks alone could certainly not identify the (potential) tone of a guitar.

Grain width isn't that important in the tone equation. Here's a thread that addresses the infamous 'tight grain sounds terrible' quote.

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16140&view=previous

[broKen]

LOL!

If I'm converting correctly 3mm is just shy of 1/8th inch. That is wide! I wonder if anyone here as a Larrivee or other solid-top guitar with grain spacing that wide?

Yeah! Mine. Been a carpenter for near 30 years so I can read a rule.(wearing bifocals) Only about 10-15% of the grain is that wide and the rest is not much tighter. Yep, a full 1/8". It's a oo-03RSS. Wish some of you could play it and tell me what you think.

[broKen]

[broKen]

For what it's worth,,,some may find it interesting.










It's not at all attractive, but I'm not complaining. It sounds better than all the rest of my guitars.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Just for snickers and to add to the discussion, I just had a good look at the top on my '83 L-07.  Actually the grain spacing is quite variable from the centre to the edge.  I would say it is quite tight grained on average.  The pattern alternates between narrow and narrower all across the sound board giving the effect of vertical stripes.  The widest spacing of all is actually at the centre-line where it is just over 3/32 for the first 3/4" or so.  It quickly transitions to tight grain as you go across.  3/4" from the centre line, there is another 3/4" section where they are 1/32" or less and some grain lines are almost as close as 1/64"!  Next is another wider section, etc.  Once you get about halfway across, the lines even out and are wider again, averaging about 1/16" or so.  I will take a pic and post it so you can see what the heck I'm talking about.

Also, there are seven or eight obvious "knots" on each half the sound board, if that is the right term.  These knots more or less match, but not as close as you might think for a closely bookmatched top.  And the grain gets a bit wavy in a few places, too.  Is that what is known as "bear claw"?  I never did quite understand that term.

Anyways, all I know is that it sounds great.  The frequency balance is incredible.  Of course, it is over 25 years old now so it has supposedly opened up over the years.  I can't even remember how different it sounded when young, so don't know how much it has changed.  All I know is, I seem to enjoy the sound more and more as the years go by.

Kurt