When is a guitar vintage?

[Richard III]

Today I was internet shopping guitars--my wife calls it "guitar Porn"--and something came up that has been eating at me a bit.  I saw a 22 year old Larrivee advertised as "vintage."  I saw a  year old Martin advertised as vintage.  I know vintage is not the same as antique but it raises these 2 questions in my mind: 1) When is a guitar "vintage?" 2)When is a guitar an "antique?"   I think vintage must be one of those Alice in Wonderland terms that means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

[Dotneck]

I consider vintage to be a combination of age, rare and desirable. Its not just vintage because its old...although a lot of sellers call used guitars vintage to attract a better price.

To me, an antique is old and not very utilitarian....

I'm sure others will have other opinions....

[AZLiberty]

I would have a hard time referring to any guitar that was less than 25 years old "vintage"

In another thread I was comfortable referring to a 1977 Guild F-20 Troubadour as "vintage" for example.  If there was some sort of major design change in a guitar model I might refer to the older version as vintage as well. 

[tubeornot2b]

just before the price goes up.

[unclrob]

I know we've had this come up before but here goes.

Martin was pre 1970
Fender- should be pre 1964 before CBS bought them but I think the cut off is 1969
Gibson again should be pre 1967
Epiphone pre 1956 if I remember right that was the year Gibson bought them
Guild I can't remember the year but it was before the move to RI

Personally its when the insurance company won't let you play it anymore because its valuble and you might scatch it.Antiques become antiques when they hit 25 years old.

[AZLiberty]

Guild I can't remember the year but it was before the move to RI

That would be 1966.  One might argue for 1995 when Fender gutted and wrecked the company.  But I can't bring myself to call my 1995 D-4-12 "vintage"

[Zohn]

As stated above it boils down to being "old" which seems to be 20 years+.
Modern builders often refer to "vintage" models or series by looks meaning vintage features or appointments such as open-back tuners, pyramid bridges, "straight-thru" saddles, herringbone, sunburst finish etc. Using terms like "golden era" usually refers to a combination of looks and sound like scalloped and "shifted" bracing, the use of hide glue (the latest gimmick) and referring to them as "the way they used to be made". Mostly Martin and/or Gibson are the brands whose sound and looks copy cats try to replicate.

a 2 year old Larrivee that is listed as "vintage", might be misrepresented as the Traditional series, which is in fact the unmistakeably Larrivee sound, presented to look like a vintage guitar.
The Pre-90's Larrivees are regarded by some folks as the special ones - and happen to be 20 years and older.
Randy has some stunning '70's models...

[Queequeg]

[SMan]

Vintage is one of the most overused terms describing a guitar for sale, and in many cases is just marketing or "puffing" IMHO.

[Queequeg]

Vintage is one of the most overused terms describing a guitar for sale, and in many cases is just marketing or "puffing" IMHO.

Agreed, SMan.
Only thing I find more annoying is the term "mint" in For Sale ads.
Mint = as new condition, never used or circulated.
I love this one: "Mint, except for minor buckle rash on back."

[SMan]

Agreed, SMan.
Only thing I find more annoying is the term "mint" in For Sale ads.
Mint = as new condition, never used or circulated.
I love this one: "Mint, except for minor buckle rash on back."

I agree totally    Mint and "Minty" are two of my most hated terms as well.  Along with like new "except", and perfect condition "but it does have a"...   In cases like those I move on quickly. 

[jeremy3220]

Just like worrying about whether a guitar is 'boutique' or not, it doesn't matter.

[cke]

The origin of the term is wine making referring only to the year of vinting, any year. After a while it became shorthand for a particularly good year, accepted  by the wine community for being somewhat exceptional.

I don't see how guitars can be honestly called vintage except that a particularly good run is noted. Just because it is a few years old doesn't make it so.  You could say it about pre-war Martin's. pre CBS Strats and Telecasters, (and any Larrivee ).

So yeah, it's mostly  just sales hype

[Richard III]

What a great set of replies.  thanks Uncle Rob. Prescient and specific. 

[Daysailer]

.........  I saw a 22 year old Larrivee advertised as "vintage."  I saw a  year old Martin advertised as vintage.  I know vintage is not the same as antique but it raises these 2 questions in my mind: 1) When is a guitar "vintage?" 2)When is a guitar an "antique?"   I think vintage must be one of those Alice in Wonderland terms that means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

To the original poster, OP,   The Martin you saw may have been one of thier "vintage" models
IE  OM-28v.  This is a new guitar built somewhat like the ones built before WWII. So they call it a Vintage model.

To all the other 'vintage' posters............ good discussion   

I remember the 25 year rule as applied to automobiles from my youth, (ute ?)
But Queequeg's post makes the most sense. 

If its not from BEFORE I was born.......  it most certainly is NOT antique OR vintage !!!!     

ds   

[Dale_I]

I'll add an additional overused term: Collectable

From the price guides, 25 years is generally when "antique" kicks in for guitars (same for cars, but furniture is usually 100 years). Although, vintage and antique seem to be used interchangeably these days. Vintage is usually in reference to a year or time period. Such as, "These books are vintage 1975", or, "These bell bottoms are early 80's vintage". Collectable is separate and usually in terms of rarity, condition, desirability, etc, etc. Such as the list unclrob added. There's my 2 cents. That and 3 cents will get you a nickle.

[Big Eric]

Collectible seems to be a modern phenomenon.  Don't think things were "collectible" back in the 1950's and earlier (although I'm probably mistaken there.)

Was once told by a very formidible furniture dealer "antique" usually refers to 200+ years old. 

Vintage as related to guitars keeps changing.  Whether or not collectible.  Fender used to be pre-1964 (or Jan. 1965). Then 1969.  Now it's pre 1974 (end of staggered pole pieces). 

Martin used to be pre-1946, then pre 1965 or so (either the introduction of D-35 or change to rosewood bridge plates, your pick).  Now it seems to be pre-1974 (the end of Brazillian rosewood in headstock overlays fingerboards and/or bridges).

Gibson seems to hold the same.

Even PRS has a "vintage" period (sweet switch and Brazillian.)

A lot of it is variable.  One constant seems to be wood that is no longer available (i.e. Brazillian) which makes shipping a guitar much more difficult, if not impossible.

Strangely, even though I've seen a number of old Larrivee guitars, I don't personally consider them "vintage".  But that's me.  Not sure I'd classify any Taylor guitars as vintage either.   

[DJ in FL]

I know we've had this come up before but here goes.

Martin was pre 1970
Fender- should be pre 1964 before CBS bought them but I think the cut off is 1969
Gibson again should be pre 1967
Epiphone pre 1956 if I remember right that was the year Gibson bought them
Guild I can't remember the year but it was before the move to RI

Personally its when the insurance company won't let you play it anymore because its valuble and you might scatch it.Antiques become antiques when they hit 25 years old.

+1 on what he said...right on, especially the part about the insurance company!!

[Danny]

Collectible seems to be a modern phenomenon.  Don't think things were "collectible" back in the 1950's and earlier (although I'm probably mistaken there.)

Was once told by a very formidible furniture dealer "antique" usually refers to 200+ years old. 

Vintage as related to guitars keeps changing.  Whether or not collectible.  Fender used to be pre-1964 (or Jan. 1965). Then 1969.  Now it's pre 1974 (end of staggered pole pieces). 

Martin used to be pre-1946, then pre 1965 or so (either the introduction of D-35 or change to rosewood bridge plates, your pick).  Now it seems to be pre-1974 (the end of Brazillian rosewood in headstock overlays fingerboards and/or bridges).

Gibson seems to hold the same.

Even PRS has a "vintage" period (sweet switch and Brazillian.)

A lot of it is variable.  One constant seems to be wood that is no longer available (i.e. Brazillian) which makes shipping a guitar much more difficult, if not impossible.

Strangely, even though I've seen a number of old Larrivee guitars, I don't personally consider them "vintage".  But that's me.  Not sure I'd classify any Taylor guitars as vintage either.   

I always thought true vintage guitars were pre the Brazilian ban. Meaning to me anything after 1970 is not vintage. Just the way I see it.

[Big Eric]

 
                 I always thought true vintage guitars were pre the Brazilian ban. Meaning to me anything after 1970 is not vintage. Just the way I see it.

That's also a good way of looking at it.  The only reason I'm saying into the 1970's is some companies used Braz. rosewood for fingerboards, bridges and headstock overlays.  Those guitars get treated the same way as an older guitar when it comes to shipping.

Again, all the above is my opinion.  If I were going for a more authorative approach, would probably read what George Gruhn has to say about it.  He's been dealing instruments longer than most.

FWIW, a few years ago, when I was still on Flatpick-L, there was a discussion that centered around glue.  The argument being vintage was when hot glue construction prevailed.  But I've been off that list for 6 years.