WANTED - your help/advice - going from nylon to steel

[lw216316]

I've played nylon string for 20 years. Now I'm considering a steel string as a ' 2nd ' guitar. I test drove an SD-50. The 1 7/8 wide neck is perfect for me. The trebels ring like a bell - a sound I like better than my nylon trebels. However, the SD-50 bass seemed weak, lower volume, less sustain compared to my nylon. I also test drove a Martin 000-15s with 1 3/4 neck. It definitely did not have the volume and the bass did not have the deep, rich, mellow, volume of my nylon. The Martin 000-15s was solid mahogany all around. To my ear the trebels on it seemed a little jinglee, metalic -  I not sure want the right word would be - not as 'sweet' and 'rich' , mellow as I would like.

Anybody here play nylon AND steel ? Any thoughts on what Larrivee (or other steel string guitar) might work for me ?
I definitely want a WIDE NECK steel -  1 3/4 or wider, bass that comes as close to my nylon sound as possible and trebels that are sweet, rich, full, mellow, clear - I'm not sure I have the vocabulary to describe it correctly - maybe you know what I mean.

thanks for any help / advice

- Larry

[SNP]

Try the Mahogany/Rosewood Combination. I play a Classical guitar, and my best friend is majoring in it. When I came up with the idea of buying an Acoustic, we went out trying all kind of guitars with my mate. All models we liked had the above wood combination.

You could even try the Cedar/Rosewood but you won't find any models with that combination on Larrivee. Most Classical Guitars have Cedar tops and you will propably find that sound even better to your ears. Maybe try some Seagulls first (I think some models have Cedar top and you will ADORE their Neck!) or a Taylor 714 with a Cedar top. I always GASed for Antoine Dufour's Stonebridge Cedar top OM :)

Now as far as the neck is concerned, my friend and I play fine on a 1 3/4 neck and so I went with an OM-03R. The bass response isn't much atm , after all it is an OM (but I have read some posts stating that the bass response might get richer with a bone saddle, I have yet to test it - my baby is but a week in the house ) so maybe you should have a look at the L03R or the Sloped Dread with the Rosewood. I myself was not looking for something that sounds as much like a Classical so I am VERY satisfied with my purchase.

PS. I found the 12" strings pretty TOUGH in the beginning. This is my first acoustic and the strings are Nothing compared to the Nylons Both my hands ached after some minutes on the first day it arrived . I might try some 11" ones for a change

[AtlasHeating]

Try a rosewood guitar. I think it may have more of the sound that you want. Also try the L. It has similar proportions to a classical guitar only supersized. Also the strings play a major role in the sound. PB vs 80/20 Light vs Medium etc.

[lw216316]

I'm just beginning to learn about the world of steel string guitars.
My classical has cedar top, rosewood sides and back - so the same wood on a steel string would make sense.
- and a large steel string - like a dreadnaught size makes sense - to get the volume -

you said, "  the strings play a major role in the sound. "
I know almost nothing about steel strings - so any advice much appreciated -

so- what guitars can I put on my list to evaluate ?
L-03R perhaps-
something big, something with cedar and / or rosewood combination , wide neck ( 1 3/4 or wider )

keep the advice comin' , I'm a sponge.

- Larry

[tonejones]

The Traditional Models come to mind here, particularly the 000-50 or 000-60.  The nut width is 1 and 13/16, which is wonderful and right up your alley being used to a nut width 2 inches or more.  These puppies have the boom as well.  The dimensions, bracing and larger soundhole work together to create an instrument that projects very well.

I would also agree with you trying out an L model.  As mentioned before, the body shape is based on a classical guitar, just larger.  Larrivee does not do cedar tops, but the sitka/rosewood combo might be what you are looking for.

Well, this is just my 2 cents....hope it helps!

[CF Larrivee]

I agree with tonejones about checking out the 000's in the Larrivee line. If you can afford one and can find one (they have just been discontinued), I would highly recommend the Martin 000-28 Norman Blake. This is a short scale, 1 & 13/16" nut, slothead that joins at the 12th fret. The string spacing at the bridge is 2 & 3/8", the same same as most classicals. I play a lot of nylon string guitar, too, and this Martin feels like a steel string classical. To top it all off, it has just incredible tone, IMHO.

[gary0319]

Hi Larry 

I play both nylon and steel, all the time. I think you would find a Larrivee 000 traditional series to be a good fit. The body size is very similar to the classical body, 12 frets  to the body will be very familiar, and the flatish 1 13/16 neck should be no problem. I have a 000-50 that has plenty of bass and a rosewood 000-60 might even have more. I find the nylon bass not to be "more" just not as defined as the steel. I always have to roll of my nylon bass when recording as it gets to be too boomy (could just be my playing, however)

I had a fingerstyle Taylor 712 Rosewood/Cedar top  with a 1 7/8 neck that was my first attempt at steel string. Great neck, but I found the Rosewood/Cedar tone to be pretty marose.

Good luck on your search,

Gary
.

[lw216316]

You guys are great. Tks 4 the help.
Ok - so 000-50 and 000-60 have been suggested -
I'm not familiar with them - but I did test drive a new SD-50.
How does the SD-50 compare to the 000-50 and 60 ?

- Larry

[gary0319]

Larry,

You might want to check out the specs at the Larrivee Products page here  http://www.larrivee.com/3_products/products_models.html  Just click on the model you want to see the specs. I have not tried the SD in Larrivee, but I would suspect close cousin to the 000 with maybe a little more defined sound with the 000 (tighter in the waist). Someone else will have a better read on this.

Gary

[bluewyatt]

hey larry - i've switched from nylon to the OOO-50 and it was seamless.  i love the 1 13/16 nut width and have light gauge strings and it plays like buttah.  i don't use a pick and can fingerpick or strum and the volumn is consistant.  i opted for the mahogany instead of the rosewood and am glad about it as i sing and play.  the OOO-60 would be too much color for me but would probably be perfect for someone who is an instrumentalist.  hope this helps.

[CF Larrivee]

Sorry everbody about the confusion on the 000's. It is indeed the Martin 000-28 N. Blake that I am refering to as being discontinued.  As far as I know, the Larrivee 000's are  alive and well. I sure didn't mean to cause a panic!

[bluewyatt]

my fault, CF.  i need to look where the comma's and periods are...duh.  i've removed the post.

[AtlasHeating]

You mentioned cedar tops. I know that Taylor has some Cedar top models. For steel strings, spruce seems to be the top of choice.
I would start with light gauge strings to be sure. The difference in feel will take some getting used to.
With any guitar, you need to play some to find out what you want. All of the discussing and studying in the world will not be the same as playing one in person.

[gary0319]

I'll put in a second to Atlas' recommendation on light strings. In fact I've gone to Martin custom lights (11-52) on my Larrivees. Not so much for the ease of play, although they are less demanding, but I like a lighter tone. String buzz with the lighter strings is not normally too much of a problem for nylon string players going to steel as we aren't usually heavy pick strummers, anyway.

One additional thing I would mention is that, in my opinion, a  really good setup is more important on a steel string than on a nylon strung insrument. The higher actions on my nylons would be absolute killers on my Larrivees. 

Gary

[knowspicker]

A guitar that has an 1 13/16" nut and sound that is hard to beat... Martin 000-28VS. One of the best sounding guitars I have ever played.

[richy3]

Welcome to the board, Larry.  I've played steel string all my life and started getting into classical about 5 years ago.  Although my Lucida Artista is not very expensive, it does have a solid cedar top with laminate rosewood b&s and an ebony fretboard and it plays and sounds great.  I now have an "L" body Larrivee that I love and, yes, the shape is based on the classical shape but the "L" is definitely a steel string in every sense.  For me, it has taken the place of my Yamaha and Washburn dreadnoughts but I never thought to relate it the Lucida. 
It also depends on your budget.  There is one guitar that comes to mind that I considered before I bought my Larrivee and that is the Breedlove Performance Series "Focus".  It's pretty pricy but it does have the 1 3/4 nut and cedar top with rosewood.  The "boomy" bass is very prominant and the highs are crisp.  If you see one at a music store, pick it up and take it for a spin.  In fact, I would suggest you spend a day at the music store and test drive a bunch of axes, one of them will speak to you.  Good luck

[dermot]

Larry;

"WANTED - your help/advice - going from nylon to steel"

Well, since you asked;

first a little discussion of the tools as the discussion has veered toward that direction;

Thought i'd send a mention out for David Webber's Roundbody, it's closer to a Larrivee LS than a L, and mine has clairity in the bass regester, and an absolute singing trebble range.. that is unusual i have found very few guitars that sound as good across the entire fingerboard, BTW it has a 1 &7/8 nut & 2 & 5/8 saddle.

That said if i'm only playing below the 7th fret i often find myself reaching for my Martin custom sitka/irw 12 fret D (similar in apperance to a SD60), but braced very very lightly... it sustains for weeks... ideal for playing off arpegeated chord shapes in drop tunings

And if a ballance & shimmer is what i long for - the Larrivee OM19 comes out.

So three guitars each with a diffrent voice...  The nibblie bits are a big deal tho.... all my guitars have a vintage bone saddle from here;
Vintage saddles
and are set up with Ej19's, and 2/32 -> 3/32 action at the 12th fret, i play with a Golden Gate heavy thumbpick, and acrylic nails.

The  tone changes substaintily if any of those elements change.... esp the bass clairity & depth! It may be the guitars you are aduitioning are capaible of giving you what you want to hear.. but it may take a while to get to the point that you are comfortable playing them to achieve that tone?

I also found the bass of steel strings flabby and ill definined... but it became obvious that a the issues was mine not the guitar's  when i played El Mcmeen's OM28, and then he played it, and we went back & forth... in his hands it was creating sounds that i was longing to hear... his advice is to cut my thumb nail off, and commit  to a thumbpick for at least six months!

When i started on thumbpicks i was warned it would take six months atleast to be comfortable, and that was pretty much right on. The same with working to be in the zone with 12 ->56 strings on, esp doing bends and loud hammer-on's with my little finger on a bass string.... it took a bit of pratice to bend a .56 string with my pinkie.

I also started over with an entirely new repotire, starting with mid level steel string pieces, and working my way back to more difficult (and rewarding) material.

I still have my thumb nail intact for when play my flaminico or classical guitars, but they both sound a bit harsh with the acrylic nails now...

So a compromise had to be made in my case. and i have stuck with it, and i love it... i only play for fun, no recording, no teaching, no  gigging... so i can afford to try things over a longer term

Good luck..

[lw216316]

I am carefully considering all the advice. Thanks guys. There are lots of guitar shops here in Nashville so I am able to test drive a lot of different models as you suggested.

I tried the Larrivee 000, Martins, Taylors. Guild and some others. So far, the guitar that brings the most satisfaction is a Santa Cruz 000. To my ear the bass seems to come closer to my beautiful nylon bass sound than any of the others and the trebles were wonderful. My search continues but at this point the Santa Cruz 000 is my top pick.

Someone mentioned singing and another person suggested thumb pick. I sing and I've always used a thumb pick with my classical. I have noticed that some guitars blend better with my singing voice than others. So that is another variable involved in my search.

I have a question for you guys -   (don't laugh, well maybe just a giggle)
Since I love the sound of the nylon bass and the sound of the steel trebles - is it possible -
to combine the two ? - use nylon bass strings and steel trebles on the SAME guitar body ?

Yes, putting steel on a ' nylon ' guitar could damage the guitar if it could not handle the tension,
so would it be possible to use extra light steel strings to minimize the tension ?

Going the other way, tension would not be an issue if bass nylon strings were put on a ' steel ' string guitar
BUT - would it sound good ? - or be like rubber bands on a cigar box ?

- Larry

[AtlasHeating]

I do not think you would be happy with the combo of Nylon and Steel. I think it is important to realize that with different guitars you can play different styles. I flatpick all of my steel string guitars. When I am using a classical, in a setting with other musicians, I usually use a pick. Going to a steel string guitar should not be a problem, but it will not sound the same. When I purchased my first electric (after I gave up electric for 12 Years) I bought one that felt like an acoustic (Washburn Archtop Electric J-6). The transition was made easier because I was comfortable with the body shape.

[richy3]

Classical guitars DO combine steel and nylon but the steels are in the bass and the nylons are the three trebles which is opposite of what you suggest.  Mostly they are picked with the fingernail or the bare finger pads but not with any kind of implement.  It is really a completely different animal than a steel string guitar meant for an entirely different type of music (unless you're Willie Nelson).  You won't replace it with a steel string but you can have both!  Good luck.