Hi Guys!  :beer First as I see the tradition here, for everyone!  :donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee :donut :donut2 :coffee

Now, I'd appreciate your comments, essentialy the questions is:

What's the main diference? between a saddle which IS ONLY compensated for the B string, and a saddle which is called "fully compensated" or Wave or Triple Compensated...and by that I mean the graphtech one I ordered which has the B string PLUS the A and Low E, or as the bone one I think we can buy from Larrivee online,

My Taylor and new Larrivee OM05 have a "plain saddle" only compensating the B string, and my Martin and Collings  have a compensated for the Low E and A too!

They make contact with the Low E right smack in front of the bridge pin, INMEDIATLY TOUCHING the saddle, right in front of it! you know the type,

Which one you have or prefer?!!!!!!!  I mean, to achieve best possible intonation!

I love my new Larrivee OM05, but there's this part of my brain telling me it might be "more" compensated, instead of just the B string, which do you prefer guys? My OM05 which is amazing! came with this "simple" saddle.

Thanks guys, I love this place, reading about fine acoustics!


Mauricio Duque

I am not an expert, but I think the compensated saddles on one string are slanted in the bridge, as opposed to the multiply compensated saddles, which are normally horizontal.....

I would stick with the saddle that came with the guitar unless you want to change the material that the saddle is made of.  Larrivee knows what they are doing intonation wise.  That being said, I replaced my three larrivee saddles with bone ones available for Larrivee guitars from  ... http://cherokeeguitar.com/product-category/02-larrivee/
The latest version of a bone saddle from them is in essence compensated for each string.  I like em.
Dave

I don't use compensated saddle.

Thanks for the comments, the reason I'm asking is this, I've replaced back and forth the saddle of my Martin OM and Collings OM (both of them totally compensated) for a saddle like Larrivee's or Taylor's (which are only compensated B string) and DID NOT like the intonation change, sounded sour and wrong in several places and chords across the fretboard,

BUT when I've switched back and forth the saddle of the Larrivee OM05, couldn't really tell a big difference intonation wise, specially on the Low E or A strings, compensated or not...

Nice point about "Larrivee knows what they are doing about intonation", BUT the guitar comes standard with a B string Only compensated saddle, yet if you order a bone saddle from Larrivee, it IS fully compensated!

Which one should I order to fool around with the action, the same Not compensated or the new one? Or is there a reason Larrivee started selling fully compensated? is there and improvement?  I'm crazy about intonation, couldn't stand the "sweet tunings" from my Peterson tuner, and went back to standard or regular tuning with the peterson...

Mauricio

for perfect intonation AND tone, make or get made a custom saddle.

...ooor just file the top of the current saddle to change the string break in the direction you want the note to go and there you have it.
string break angle closer to the neck: raise string pitch
" " further: lower string pitch
use a strobe tuner if you have access to one. a regular tuner in a quiet setting should also do fine.:donut :donut2 :coffee

pm me if you decide to take on intonating it yourself and have a question about anything.

Thanks for the comments nolifebutbmx :donut :donut2 :donut, I'm a new member, can I PM?    I've really thought about it, making a saddle which will cover the tuning issues I percieve with the OM05,

Currently I placed a graphtech Fully Compensated saddle, which has the Low E, A and of course B string closer to the bridge pins, and I must say really made a difference compared with the original Larrivee, sweeter tuning across the fretboard, playing Laurence Juber or Doyle Dykes tunes 1st to 12th fret sound truer,

I can detect annoyingly easy once a chord has one or several strings sour sounding...which happens a lot! I'm retuning constantly, tried the strobe peterson's sweetened tunings, but of course ALWAYS at a compromise, or at the expense of sounding right BUT sounding bad here and there,

Once sending mails with Laurence Juber, he told me now he prefers the regular tuning, and NOT a sweetened tuning, and lives with the factory made compensated saddle, with its faults...

If i wanted to make a custom saddle for my OM05, what should I do, I could sanding the saddle, move it closer or further to the neck, but relative to what? the 12th fret? or its harmonic and then fretted at the 12th fret,

Of course I could just get a setup done...but I'm totally willing to learn, have a few spare saddles, a peterson tuner, and a pair of ears, desperate by the way to find the sweetest tuning I can get out of this beautiful Larrivee... :coffee

Mauricio

    For a short time Larrivee used a "super duper triple conflagration" saddle on higher end guitars. I saw them on the shortscale models. But they didn't seem to make much difference to me and I don't see them anymore.

    I took unclrob's advice and made some saddles with no compensation. They seemed just as good to me, but my ear may not be the best judge.

Thanks, didn't know Larrivee use to send factory guitars with fully compensated saddles, now they're back to non-compensated, yet IF you order one online store, the bone saddle is wave compensated!

Putting a not compensated saddle on any guitar, specially the thick B string WILL have an impact in intonation, there's no way a plain saddle will work as a compensated one, does not take much, just listen really careful, or use an accurate tuner, playing a simple C chord will sound sharp! the Low E, open string sounds one way, and once fretted sounds different with a non-compensated saddle, always does, more so with a plain saddle, sometimes so much it gives our pianist's group a headache!

Check this quick link from Petros Builder (the saddle part)  http://www.petrosguitars.com/features.htm

Can you live happy with false intonation?  :beer

Love to hear your comments...

Larrivee used compensated saddles all the time, they never stopped.I just said they used the multi compensated saddle for a short time.
My 93 Martin OM-21 had a non compensated saddle and was used for gigging for over ten years. By a very astute musician. If its intonation was off it would have drove him crazy.

Yes it's true, but what I meant is Larrivee has been sending most their instruments with saddles compensated ONLY for the B string, but there are six strings on a guitar, and most builders will say a compensated saddle, for the Low E specially, is a must,

Of course there're guitars which sound fine with a non-compensated saddle, or they just seem to hide the imperfections inherent of the instrument really well, but there's a reason why luthiers tune each string for each guitar, when a really really good intonation is needed, or a bad one is perceived :coffee

I hope you never have to play with another guitarist because if his guitar is not perfectly intonated like yours there will be sour note's among you.I have no intonation issue's but I also play a heavy gauge of strings,14-58.One issue that does come up when playing at time's a string can be press down too much pulling it sharp. :cheers

Quote from: Duque on April 19, 2013, 11:52:43 AM
Yes it's true, but what I meant is Larrivee has been sending most their instruments with saddles compensated ONLY for the B string, but there are six strings on a guitar, and most builders will say a compensated saddle, for the Low E specially, is a must,

Of course there're guitars which sound fine with a non-compensated saddle, or they just seem to hide the imperfections inherent of the instrument really well, but there's a reason why luthiers tune each string for each guitar, when a really really good intonation is needed, or a bad one is perceived :coffee

The low E is compensated by the "slant" of the saddle. ALL the strings are compensated by the precise location of the nut and saddle, as well as the proper slotting of the nut. These items can throw off intonation easily. I have seen the scale being changed by repairs to a nut or a bridge.

Unclrob thanks for the comments,

Could you elaborate a bit, this is interesting to me, what saddle are you using? (the original with only B compensated) or a totally plain bone saddle?

And finally, which way you tune your instrument? by ear, with a tuner, and once done..do you tickle with certain strings? to get it the best way...

Thanks unclrob for your comments :donut

Nice place to discuss guitars, love it!

Thanks dependan, you have a nice point refering to the slant of the saddle! good point, noticed how in my Collings and Martin the placing of the saddle is more tilted than the one with the Larri

We are glad to have you here and its nice to  discuss something other than "what strings do you use " for the hundredth time.

 :roll  jaja, currently I use Elixirs light, may not have the sound like regular strings, but they last quite a while :thumbsup

I have those on my OO but I won't use them Again.

Quote from: Duque on April 19, 2013, 12:13:41 PM
Unclrob thanks for the comments,

Could you elaborate a bit, this is interesting to me, what saddle are you using? (the original with only B compensated) or a totally plain bone saddle?

And finally, which way you tune your instrument? by ear, with a tuner, and once done..do you tickle with certain strings? to get it the best way...

Thanks unclrob for your comments :donut

Nice place to discuss guitars, love it!

I use a plain piece of bone and angel the bone so that more string makes contact with the saddle.I use an "A" bar from a glockenspiel to tune the "A" string then temper tune from there.I stop using most tuners after learning how to tune piano's from one of the old masters when I lived in NY.At gig's I'm now using a tuning fork and my duo partner tune's to me.Like I said I also use heavy strings with very low action.Been doing things this way for 30 or more years.As for saddle's never had a complaint from any of my clients and I've made hundreds.

:donut :donut :donut

You'll need to keep in mind that any saddle - compensated or not, custom made or not - is a compromise.  The design of the guitar is such that it's not possible to achieve perfect intonation everywhere on the fretboard - even everywhere on the playable part of the fretboard - just through saddle compensation.  You've got to adjust for the little inconsistencies through a combination of tuning adjustments and playing technique.  Tuners are a great help and give you a starting place, but you really need to fine-tune by ear.  If you are good enough at those two things, you can probably learn to sound good with any type of saddle.  However, I find that a custom compensated saddle makes the other parts easier.  I usually buy the kind that have the B string set back, and the D down to low E gradually tapering backward.  I think that's what's referred to as fully compensated.  Then I modify them according to whatever adjustment I feel is needed.  Then I learn to play and tune around my crappy intonation work.   :crying:

I have a short scale Larrivee 00-03R - 24-3/4" long - and my guitar tech said the intonation on the low was slightly off and so compensated the saddle for the low E string. In short scale guitars, you are more likely to find minor intonation problems like that, apparently.

Anyway, if your intonation is fine, no need to compensate for the low E string. If it's slightly off, then go for it.

Mind, you I could not hear the slightly off intonation, but it could be measured and someone with more sensitive pitch might hear it. I would not have bothered with compensating for the low E string, but it was included in the set-up my tech did at not extra charge...

Compensated saddles are the most important and best thing to ever happen to acoustic guitars.
When I was working at Rufus guitar shop in Montreal, (before Chuck Baker bought it and moved it west) we used to carve and shape each bone saddle in direct accordance to a stobe scope.

I believe we were the first people to do this (early seventies) even JCL wasn't doing compensated saddles at the time, and it took a while to talk him into it.

It's a pretty simple scenario, if your guitar hasn't had its saddle properly intonated, the guitar will be out of tune as you progress up the neck.
frets that aren't crowned properly will have the same effect.
so will will older strings (they go flat when dead).

If you want to record, play with others, or be in tune when moving into 2nd, 3rd or 4th positions (or using a capo).
Compensated saddles are a must.

The factory compensation, like set up, is general and a real carved/shaped saddle made by a technician is about the best thing you can do for your guitar.

just my 2  cents.

 :cheers Really good to read several opinions about this, I'm a believer in compenasted saddles too, but after reading a lot of opinions and googled for quite a while:

1.- I'm intrigued really!, I got to say, several members vote for a non compensated, and say their guitars sound nice and even across the fingerboard! there's got to be a reason! and I believe them when they say so...

2.- The mention of a non-compensated placed in the guitar slot working just as fine "because the already slanted saddle position" so it works as a compensation already! except for the B string which is set back...

3.- As Unclrob mentioned, he placed a plain piece of bone, with no compensation at all, not even for the B string as I understood...and he's made several saddles like this with perfect results,

I confess, I'm really interested in trying a plain piece of bone like this, and with no pre-ideas that I may already have, give it a fair shot...and see...

After reading lots of opinions, and conversations about how a fully compensated is a must... I'm totally eager to try a plain saddle, and see if the SLANT that is already present from factory is ALL THAT'S NEEDED!  :donut :donut2 :donut :donut2 :donut :donut2 :donut :donut2 :coffee

PS. unclrob guys, if you don't have a b string compensated, do you fine tune it flat a bit? ar at all?

I tune normal.I also fine that I'm at most 2-3 cents either way depending on the guitar.My own guitars are all set up with non-compensated saddle's and play past the 12 fret with no issue.I have many players that want the intonation spot on {I do make compensated saddle's when ask too} and then complain that the intonation is out when the play and I have to remind them that when the press too hard that there pulling the string sharp,also as they get more excited or strum harder the press down harder again pulling the strings sharp.I also don't like pre-made compensated saddle's due to no two guitars being the same.This means that when compensating a saddle it should be done for that guitar.Even with the pre-fab saddle's the B can be off.

I concur with uncrob on the fact that every guitar is different.
there are many factors, (not just the saddle that will pre determine intonation.
A player who prefers high action (like myself) will have different intonation issues than a person who prefers a lower action.

interesting to note as well, most classical guitars (until very recently) didn't have intonated saddles.

There was a brief time when Gibson had metal tuno-matic type bridges on their acoustic guitars, set in metal posts, which was just HORRID!

to each his own I guess.....

i think another interesting thing to consider is slightly flat intonation on any or all strings sounds waaay better than slighty sharp.
To my ear anyways.
I feel like when the note is under, its still trying to reach the desired tone, still able to fully resolve. when the note is sharp and has gone past its destination, it's like it fell off the proverbial tuning cliff or something  : )

Quote from: headsup on April 22, 2013, 03:21:52 PM
I concur with uncrob on the fact that every guitar is different.
there are many factors, (not just the saddle that will pre determine intonation.
A player who prefers high action (like myself) will have different intonation issues than a person who prefers a lower action.

interesting to note as well, most classical guitars (until very recently) didn't have intonated saddles.

There was a brief time when Gibson had metal tuno-matic type bridges on their acoustic guitars, set in metal posts, which was just HORRID!

to each his own I guess.....

That horrible adjustable bridge on Gibsons ruined the value of many otherwise great vintage Gibsons. They even put a cheap plastic bridge on some models in the 60's. That was also HORRID!

I totally agree, they looked terrible :angry:  I totally agree too as the preference to have slightly flat notes instead of going sharp, no doubt,

I confess being intrigued by these comments, I've never put a plain (totally plain) saddle on my Larri OM05, I have a bone piece at home, which is solid and nicely rounded for the strings to make contact...I think I'll try it, the same at 3/32s on the Low E at 12th fret, and see the results, will play several chords, tunes, jazzy chords, up down the neck, everything, and see the results...i'm quite curious right now to be honest...

So far what I've tried has been the regular Larrivee saddle, and a graphtech fully compensated, this will be interesting for me,

I only wish I had spare new strings 'cause every time you lossen or tighten the strings, besides ruining their sound...they break! :blush:

I've seen more and more classical guitars coming in with the "G" string compensated.The saddle is still straight.Also maybe I don't have a problem due to the fact that I'm a tele player and prefer the original style three saddle,that by the way aren't tilted for intonation.My newist addition is a set neck tele that has a hardtail strat style bridge with six saddle's and as soon as I can get to a bandsaw I'll be cutting down a tele bridge with the three saddle's so I can fit it to the guitar.

 :wave Hi Duque
Thanx for the donuts and welcome, oh and congratulations with that OM-05
:smile:

Good comments, and Zohn thanks for the welcome! :beer

I have not played the other guitars since getting the OM05, it's incredible the balance Larrivee gets, no other guitar I own vibrates like this, hey! My Collings OM1 engelmann, costed twice the Larrivee, and got to admit, both are up there sound wise!

Will try in a while the plain saddle I shaped yesterday for the Larrivee....can't wait :guitar

Make sure that as much string as possible come's in contact with the saddle.

Thanks unclrob, I will, I tried last night to give it a nice angle, rounding the contact point, If needed I'll sand a bit more, evenly across the six strings :thumb

I'm just afraid that the bone saddle is a hair thiner than the original saddle, looks almost the same, once I remove the original I'll know if it fits snugly on the slot...

If it doesn't, a luthier once told me a provisional remedy, is to smear one side of the saddle with a thin coat of crazy glue, across the saddle, thus making it .00x inches wider, so it sits better it tighter on the slot...

Is it a good idea just for now? hopefully, well, i remember once Bob Colosi told me to coat a bit with crazy glue a bridge pins set I bought from him, to fit them tighter,
It may do the trick too this time...

not a fan of super glue but if it works for the experiment I don't see a problem.

Yeah me neither, I sort of don't like having an "almost right" work too using glue, being a saddle or a nut fixed, but I guess to try it should work.. will do it as I get back from work...