OK, all the ones who don't want one, just keep saying why this or that model won't work for whatever reason you can come up with.
For anyone who really wants one here is the secret.
Be willing to let go of the small issues.
The rest is easy...00 slothead, satin, gloss etc. etc. If you have to be so particular about a rosette or trim or tuners then it's by definition not a Forum guitar. It's your particular custom guitar. And not all of us will jump on board.
As Denis has said the 12 fret models really have something. I agree. A 12 fret slothead would be my choice. Gloss, abalone, decent tuners (please), rosewood bridge and fretboard as well as headstock veneer. No Logo at all. And a bone nut!!!
Unfortunately y'all seem to want a L model which would be too big for me to play. If it's an OM or CS or LS size......................................... I am in.
Quote from: dependan on June 05, 2009, 11:13:28 PM
00 slothead, gloss etc. etc.
As Denis has said the 12 fret models really have something. I agree. A 12 fret slothead would be my choice. Gloss, abalone, decent tuners (please), rosewood bridge and fretboard as well as headstock veneer. No Logo at all. And a bone nut!!!
Sounding pretty good so far!
with
rosewood trim
and High-gloss!
all hog too
BASIC CONCEPT: Great idea. Forum IV - OO-Slothead-12fret (These are the main ingredients - the rest are options)
DEPTH:Don't forget the FOUR INCH DEPTH --- 4" deep from the lower bout/strap pin.
I believe someone may have started a similar thread about OO-Slothead but it was not necessarily to be a Forum IV as we were still waiting for our FIIIs to be completed in the factory. People were just content with it being a LTD something.
FINISH - Gloss or Satin
Gloss finish + decent tuners = $2,000+ USD guitar
My preference is Satin 03-appointments Made in Vancouver to lower the co$t - but not a deal breaker.
NAME OF BUYERS & CASH COMMITMENT
To make this come to reality and not just another thread, we need people who will commit CA$H with their name.
DEALER
A Canadian dealer has been approached in the original OO-slothead concept.
WOOD CHOICES
TOP - Adirondack or Engelmann Spruce, please! Of course, mahogany for the faithful hog fans here.
BACK & SIDES - hog (of course), rw, and one other exotic say (Walnut, Bubinga, Zircote)
BRACING (my preference) - Pre-war Scalloped - whatever will maximize top/git vibration
SCALE: 25.5" regular or Short Scale (I'm sure there are short scale fans here, was it "Big-Al"?)
Just trying to help organize to move this closer to becoming reality.
ricky [ Man, I knew I should have gone to sleep and stayed away from this place!] :humour:
I am going to cry :crying: :crying:
00 size, slot head, all hog, 12 fret. Ticks all the boxes for my third guitar. I figure four guitars is all I will ever need, with the 4th being a 12 string maybe. Pity I am totally broke!!
:crying: :crying: :crying: :angry: :mad: :angry: :mad: :doh :? :doh :wacko: :crying: :crying:
:+1: I knew it was only a matter of time right? :winkin:
Myself and some other forumites gelled some thoughts in January 2009 about a Forum IV, and the essence is as follows:
1. 12 Fret.
2. Slotted Head
3. 00, with a most responsive top in either Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce - a truly finger style monster.
4. Back & Sides Hog or Sapele (yes, Sapele!!), of a somewhat figured appearance.
5. Gloss top
6. 1 3/4" Nut
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle.
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (24,9" or 24,75").
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo body binding, headstock veneer, heel-cap and end block-wedge.
10. Bone nut and saddle.
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio)
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock, or @ the body joint, and on the label, and on a brass plate on the Case.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style)
Options include different top (including the possibility of Hog), back& Side materials like Rosewood, Walnut, and appointments.
I also took the liberty of making contact with 2 different dealers in Canada and New York, who indicated keen interest.
It all sounds great.
Would that be a Gloss top, but not back and sides?
Has anyone spoken to Mr. Larrivee yet? Sounds like this is very organized at this point. Good luck everyone. Forum builds are an interesting ride. Hopefully there will be a Facebook page again.
Here we go again....this concept is pretty much what I would have wanted from III...Here is my vote...
BASIC CONCEPT: OO-Slothead-12fret (These are the main ingredients - the rest are options)
DEPTH: Depth similar to a dread....similar to an H-13.
FINISH - Gloss
WOOD CHOICES
BACK & SIDES - hog and rosewood
SCALE: 25.5"
YES :nanadance
OO- body size - lower bout 15 inches or less
12 fret slot head
Now, becasue this is best suited as a FINGERSTYLE guitar
I want (at least as an option) a wider neck - a 1 13/16 like the OOO-50, 60 or better yet a 1 7/8 like the SD50, 60.
I prefer a Martin size 24.9 scale - like Martin uses on all their OO size guitars.
Its perfect - not as short as a Larrivee Parlor but not as long as the 25.5.
For fingerstyle this 24.9 scale is perfect - why do you think Martin uses it !
yes- I agree - no ping tuners
do not install pick guard - same way Forum III was done - put it in the box to be used if desired.
I had the opportunity to play a Forum III and the body depth on it was just perfect - 4 inch.
I suggest 4 inches on this OO - so it will fit nicely in the lap - I think most people will use this as a lap guitar for fingerstyle.
Anything over 4 inch can get uncomfortable after a while.
- I would have bought a Forum III if it was slot head and had a 1 13/16 neck.
- Larry
Ray, Mark, Jim, it's not quite summer in the States, and money is still somewhat tight, but it seems the temperature is rising.. :winkin:
Wow, F4 talk already! Aren't we still on the F3 honeymoon?
Sounds like a nice set up. I don't think Engelman is what you would want at all, sitka would be better. Adi would be great but it would need to be cut real thin to sound good on a small body like that. I think Italian would be optimal.
Sounds like it would be a real nice guitar.
If I jump in on this, I would not want Italian because my FIII has it. Why not Engleman? But I also think that Larrivee does Sitka right!
Slotheads are cool. At one point I had three (000-15S, SD-50, Yamaki 12).
Cutaway option?
Gloss would shoot the cost up to $2k at least. What does a Martin forum 00 cost?
Anyone have some pictures of 00 Larrivees?
Quote from: prof_stack on June 06, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
Gloss would shoot the cost up to $2k at least. What does a Martin forum 00 cost?
Not sure what they were new but I seem to remember seeing used ones in the $2500 range...
Wow. Fasten your seatbelts and hang on to your hats. You are in for one hell of a wild ride. Seems like there is nothing like a new forum guitar project to get this forum revved up. I'm pretty well guitared up right now so I won't be participating in this venture. But I'll be watching the whirlwind of excitement as it grows into hurricane proportions and overwhelms the masses. Oh, by the way, will you ask for 4 dots on the 12th fret ??? :laughin:
If Danny and Ricky are driving this thing it will happen; that much I am sure of.
Tuffythepug
If this F4 is...
Less than 2,000 for satin (and lots of orders like FIII) --- I hope it will go to Vancouver production again.
More than 2,000+ for gloss (say 12-20 orders VERY limited number) ---
Wouldn't it be nice to have Mr. JCL himself build each F4?
For me:
TOP - Sitka, hog, okay. For me, anything but sitka (have some already) - so Engelmann or any European Spruce please
B&S - south american hog preferred; figured sapele (yes!!!)
Last time, magic number / minimum order to make it a go is === 16.
I have seen some dealers get a "limited edition" of as few as 5 ---- or 10, or 12.
Must we start a list of Money-Committed-Buyers? and start a bare essentials Spec Features?
MONEY-COMMITTED-BUYERS (in no particular order) - danny, zohn, dotneck, ricky, larry, prof_stack
(this is not an official list - just a sample of names)
We should get a dealer as soon as Monday.
ricky (BTW, This would motivate me to sell my OO-09. Interested? PM me).
PS - I guess this is our Forum's way to stimulate the economy.
$2,000 would be too rich for my blood, I would have to fold at $1500 or over.
Why should this be any more expensive than a III ?
- Larry
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 06, 2009, 12:14:05 PMOh, by the way, will you ask for 4 dots on the 12th fret ??? :laughin:
Tuffy, this is your signature fret --- hope you can manage to jump in if all should go well and fast, like the last time. :whistling:
ricky
Quote from: lw216316 on June 06, 2009, 12:55:02 PM
$2,000 would be too rich for my blood, I would have to fold at $1500 or over.
Why should this be any more expensive than a III ?
- Larry
slothead and glossy will drive it north of 1500.
so, if we keep it satin-matte finish, we stay south of 2000 and well within 1500.
my 'fully loaded' FIII is south of 1600 - LSV-03R purfling.
I'd like to keep it MATTE, satin, 03 specs please --- with you here, Larry.
(Though if it should go gloss, I want in, also: 2nd choice).
Matte finish would make this more resonant, yeah?
ricky
I would like to see a 000, satin, no pickguard or clear pickguard, dots or no dots, 12 fret slothhead, mahogany with sitka or other form of spruce and pyramid bridge built someday.
Quote from: tikabear on June 06, 2009, 01:01:50 PM
I would like to see a 000, satin, no pickguard or clear pickguard, dots or no dots, 12 fret slothhead, mahogany with sitka or other form of spruce and pyramid bridge built someday.
OO or OOO ??? No matter which one, 4" depth is a must or I'm out. Regular production OOO is more than 4".
But I think, the interest is currently OO.
Question: If it should go (triple) OOO, will that box be similar in size to LS (FIII)? Someone please enlighten us.
ricky
Quote from: prof_stack on June 06, 2009, 11:27:15 AM
If I jump in on this, I would not want Italian because my FIII has it. Why not Engleman? But I also think that Larrivee does Sitka right!
Slotheads are cool. At one point I had three (000-15S, SD-50, Yamaki 12).
Cutaway option?
Gloss would shoot the cost up to $2k at least. What does a Martin forum 00 cost?
Anyone have some pictures of 00 Larrivees?
Here's what I thought to be the general consensus on these tonewoods. An Engelman would be my last choice, but I am definitely not the most knowlegable or experiennced source of info. I would go w/ Italian or a thinly cut Adi because it's going to need some help to an Adi top moving in a small package.
Sitka...The best all around spruce. Responds well to all styles. Has warmth and clarity. Not as dynamic a range as Adi or Italian.
Engelman... Punchy and bright, less warmth than Sitka.
Adirondack... Boom! Loud. Widest tonal range and loudest of the spruces. Adds some complexity and overtones, really shines with aggression, the hardest of spruces, has been know to be less responsive to light touch. The flat picking king.
Italian... bright and warm with the complexity and overtones of Adi but a touch softer and extremely responsive to the light touch giving the player a wide range of choices dynamic playing styles.
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 06, 2009, 12:14:05 PM
for 4 dots on the 12th fret ???
I hope not...the three micro dots are my least favorite aesthetic feature on the FIII. No markers at all would look even better....
Quote from: bluesman67 on June 06, 2009, 02:09:59 PM
Italian... bright and warm with the complexity and overtones of Adi but a touch softer and extremely responsive to the light touch giving the player a wide range of choices dynamic playing styles.
I agree with this...I love any spruce but the IS on the forum guitar I have is exactly as you describe it. Amazing!!
I won`t be hopping on the Forum IV bandwagon....when can we start to talk about Forum V? :wink:
QuoteI hope not...the three micro dots are my least favorite aesthetic feature on the FIII. No markers at all would look even better....
Dots are no biggie - you can have them put on for $15 each or less by a luthier, repair person, most any shop.
I've done that with 2 of my guitars - had some side micro dots put on.
...did it with my Pavan classical- it came with 1 micro dot - I had 3 more put on for $15 each.
- Larry
Sounds like you are describing a 00-50 with a satin finish, and maybe an alternate top material. Brand new and under $1500? Good luck - I think you're looking at a bit more, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for you - I'd be looking at what the best wholesale price you could hope to get a 000-50 for these days, and figure it's closer to that -
Tad
Quote from: Dotneck on June 06, 2009, 02:18:07 PM
I hope not...the three micro dots are my least favorite aesthetic feature on the FIII. No markers at all would look even better....
Some people liked them on the F III but, as with anything, opinions can differ. I haven't heard any negative comments about the three dots until now though. I hope the F IV, if it does come to fruition, will be more to your liking with regard to fret markers or lack thereof.
With regard to keeping this thing in a reasonable price range: Slothead and gloss are going to drive the price up more than anything with the possible exception of a sunburst finish. If you keep all the trim to a bare minimum (no herringbone or abalone rosettes, etc.) you might have a chance of keeping in near the $1,500 mark in a satin finish but don't expect Italian or Englemann spruce at that price.
In case enough folks wanted to spend north of $2000, here are some pics of an OO-50MT as possible future FIV. Love that herringbone on hog. Forum guitar V can always go back to the satin/low cost route. Just throwin' that out there...
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 06, 2009, 03:02:59 PM
Some people liked them on the F III but, as with anything, opinions can differ. I haven't heard any negative comments about the three dots until now though.
Oh, the dots are not that big a deal...that's why I never mentioned it. I just don't much care for the microdots at all. I'd rather have an inlay that has some style to it or nothing at all...to me the microdots look like a way to have fret markers but keep the cost down...
I think the next comment may belong in the category of "Larrivees are great guitars for the money..." and I know that riles some people up...
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 06, 2009, 03:02:59 PM
With regard to keeping this thing in a reasonable price range: Slothead and gloss are going to drive the price up more than anything with the possible exception of a sunburst finish. If you keep all the trim to a bare minimum (no herringbone or abalone rosettes, etc.) you might have a chance of keeping in near the $1,500 mark in a satin finish but don't expect Italian or Englemann spruce at that price.
I think when you start a project like this you need to first decide are you going to try to build a guitar at the lowest cost possible (ie good for the money) or are you going to build it the way you want it...sure the glossy finish, slothead and sunburst are features that cost more...but a slothead glossy cutaway Larrivee, even if it costs more than an 03, can be reasonably priced when compared to similar guitars by other manufacturers...
Anyway...I have a feeling if I offer much more of my opinions it may start another flame war...and since the forum has finally calmed down, I may limit my input on this project and see what you guys come up with....then I can decide if I'm interested....
OYE VEY!!....Just when I was "thinking" I was happy,I come upon this thread!!
Ok,I admit I've been Gas'ing for a 00,slothead (and a D-18A,OR H&D TDM....which is a LONG,LONG,LONG way off)....but...I have some fairly simple parameters(aside from price,and how long the "deposit" phase comes before the "balance" phase.....MUCHO important!!).
The economy has bitten be badly,but for the right "combo" I'd be presed hard.I think I'm leaning to go with you guys....I hope!!I need to see how this all develops,but I don't care for an "all" hog.I'd like a different "top",and a gloss top.....
Surely ZOHN knows my taste :winkin:...He's a bit of a Guru to me,so we'll see.
Very interesting....Now,I'm gonna start getting stingey with small purchases again,so I can start a "Git fund".When I go out to dinner,tonight,it looks like the appitizer is going to be dropped.That should give me about ten bucks for the "fund".....Bada bing!
Like I said....OYE VEY! ...In a GOOD WAY! :smile: Hey "that" rhymes!!
Best to all
Btw,forgot to mention....fuel for "really nice" thought!.....Check "this" out.....
On the Martin Guitar Forum(D-28 Lounge)..."Those folks" decided on a GORGEOUS 00 slothead,of figured hog,with fairly simple appointments.
I believe that was the last forum guitar "there".I've followed many of those posters,and they all seem to LOVE it.
Best
Perhaps it would be wise to take a poll upfront about cost range -
all the option discussion becomes academic if there are not enough to pay the price.
You could set up a poll similar to this-
I would be willing to pay -
O- $1500 or under
O- $1500 - 1750
O- $1750 - 2000
O- $2000 - 2250
O- $over 2250
Then options can be decided on based on based on the popular price range.
For example , if the $2250 or over is acceptable to 'most' then get as much as can be had for that price,
gloss, italian spruce, inlays, whatever...
There is no need for those who can't afford it to debate options -
- Larry
I like the idea of the 00 size with the simple statements, with the options to upgrade- kinda like we did the Forum III. Give most people the opportunity to participate, plus gives a little flexibility for people to personalise it.
I remember someone asking for a deep body 00. Now that may be a very unique Forum git.
00 size, but a deep 5'' or slightly more maybe 5 1/2. Then a slot head 12 fret, I like the IS myself, with the MT option as before. Satins fine, I'd love to do another ''donut run'' and be sure to include "all" who have any inclination to deliver the goodies to our friends at Larrivee. Even if d. has to arrange a bus to take us all.
1500 may be feasable on this one if it's done at Vancouver, but if we have a "forum" on gloss this time, well so be it.
I'm not getting any younger and neither is JCL, so we better keep moving forward.
Anyone who wants to run with this can have it. I just want to be "in". Unless you order a "shoulder killer" then I'm back to a Martin 000-15s (mahogany)
Quote from: L-fan on June 06, 2009, 03:47:18 PM
In case enough folks wanted to spend north of $2000, here are some pics of an OO-50MT as possible future FIV. Love that herringbone on hog. Forum guitar V can always go back to the satin/low cost route. Just throwin' that out there...
Wow ! When I saw this it blew my mind ! I think the G.A.S. list has new No. 1. :nice guitar:
Cheers, Scott.
As long as we're talking tops... has a Larrivee ever been made with cedar like classicals. I think that combination with Mahogany in the 00 would be nice. Some real projection out of a classical sized instrument.
$.02 and counting.
fred
Quote from: ffinke on June 06, 2009, 06:45:34 PM
As long as we're talking tops... has a Larrivee ever been made with cedar like classicals. I think that combination with Mahogany in the 00 would be nice. Some real projection out of a classical sized instrument.
$.02 and counting.
fred
Oh yeah!! Cedar on a OO, that would be sweet!!!! I've always wondered why there aren't more cedar topped Larrivees? Isn't BC chock full of the stuff?
Cedar would be easy for Vancouver, or for Oxnard.
I have to add in here though, I would like to see one from Oxnard. Matthew and JCL would produce some fine instruments for us and they may cost more but it's only money and Obamma will probably take it from us if we don't spend it first anyway.
That last part is for the "duck" who would have said it first if he wasn't so busy with whatever he's busy with these days.
Quote from: L-fan on June 06, 2009, 03:47:18 PM
In case enough folks wanted to spend north of $2000, here are some pics of an OO-50MT as possible future FIV. Love that herringbone on hog. Forum guitar V can always go back to the satin/low cost route. Just throwin' that out there...
WOW.... and yes... can they make a deeper body???
And a clear PG.. I just need that option since it's no biggie, I never have cared for the newer PG's much.
Quote from: L-fan on June 06, 2009, 03:47:18 PM
In case enough folks wanted to spend north of $2000, here are some pics of an OO-50MT as possible future FIV. Love that herringbone on hog. Forum guitar V can always go back to the satin/low cost route. Just throwin' that out there...
Now THATS a looker - would love to hear that someday -
Tad
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 06, 2009, 03:02:59 PM
Some people liked them on the F III but, as with anything, opinions can differ. I haven't heard any negative comments about the three dots until now though. I hope the F IV, if it does come to fruition, will be more to your liking with regard to fret markers or lack thereof.
With regard to keeping this thing in a reasonable price range: Slothead and gloss are going to drive the price up more than anything with the possible exception of a sunburst finish. If you keep all the trim to a bare minimum (no herringbone or abalone rosettes, etc.) you might have a chance of keeping in near the $1,500 mark in a satin finish but don't expect Italian or Englemann spruce at that price.
.... sounds good to me and the sunburst :-)
Quote from: magictwanger on June 06, 2009, 04:13:09 PM
OYE VEY!!....Just when I was "thinking" I was happy,I come upon this thread!!
Ok,I admit I've been Gas'ing for a 00,slothead (and a D-18A,OR H&D TDM....which is a LONG,LONG,LONG way off)....but...I have some fairly simple parameters(aside from price,and how long the "deposit" phase comes before the "balance" phase.....MUCHO important!!).
The economy has bitten be badly,but for the right "combo" I'd be presed hard.I think I'm leaning to go with you guys....I hope!!I need to see how this all develops,but I don't care for an "all" hog.I'd like a different "top",and a gloss top.....
Surely ZOHN knows my taste :winkin:...He's a bit of a Guru to me,so we'll see.
Very interesting....Now,I'm gonna start getting stingey with small purchases again,so I can start a "Git fund".When I go out to dinner,tonight,it looks like the appitizer is going to be dropped.That should give me about ten bucks for the "fund".....Bada bing!
Like I said....OYE VEY! ...In a GOOD WAY! :smile: Hey "that" rhymes!!
Best to all
So your in?
OK,since I was the guy who posted the querry last winter(not that it makes a diff),here's my take....
Let's have "the" dealer of choice take it to the next level!!
Let's see options,and the particular pricing of those features.Let's see a time table on deposit/final payment......Btw,I do agree with Dependan,about where/who bulids the guitar!
I am SO interested,but it would be a "stretch" for me.I need to be "sold" on why I'd be sorry to pass this up....Like alot of other folks I'd bet.
Btw,I love what I heard/saw/felt in my exposure to a H&D oo-sp(thanks to Zohn)...I'd hope this forum git was of light/responsive bulid,and basically "special".For reasonable monies,but it could be asking too much I'd guess.....Dealer?
I must ask, why so soon.....?
are your F3's not satisfying??
Quote from: magictwanger on June 06, 2009, 08:34:12 PM
OK,since I was the guy who posted the querry last winter(not that it makes a diff),here's my take....
Let's have "the" dealer of choice take it to the next level!!
Let's see options,and the particular pricing of those features.Let's see a time table on deposit/final payment......Btw,I do agree with Dependan,about where/who bulids the guitar!
I am SO interested,but it would be a "stretch" for me.I need to be "sold" on why I'd be sorry to pass this up....Like alot of other folks I'd bet.
Btw,I love what I heard/saw/felt in my exposure to a H&D oo-sp(thanks to Zohn)...I'd hope this forum git was of light/responsive bulid,and basically "special".For reasonable monies,but it could be asking too much I'd guess.....Dealer?
So how deep is the body on the H&D? In fact post a pic and the specs. We can have some idea about this size then.
Quote from: es-335 on June 06, 2009, 09:05:29 PM
I must ask, why so soon.....?
are your F3's not satisfying??
Because it's time. Sometimes things come in 3's. In fact quite often they come in 3's. So I would not be surprised to see Forum III Forum IV and Forum V all in a row. BAM BAM BAM.
I'm in general agreement with most, except I would like to see a "OOO" slot-head, matte finish to keep the cost down, the Adi is too much (sorry Joseph). Like the idea, but as some have said, didn't we just get our F-III's? An idea is fun to throw around, just give me enough time so I can start collecting cans! Where do you people get the money from? I know some are from retirement funds (no names!)! :humour: Some of us are just recovering from the "Saturday Night F-III Fever"! Help keep the economy going!
Could we maybe plan on around Christmas, trying to keep maybe a year between? When were the last ones before the F-III's done? Please? :?
Jeff
Quote from: es-335 on June 06, 2009, 09:05:29 PM
I must ask, why so soon.....?
are your F3's not satisfying??
I'm finding them most satisfying - but alot of people didn't want what was offered, and if there are enough of them to put together a Forum4 project, I say more power to them! I will wait by the sidelines, quietly intrigued, and if the specs and price are interesting enough, and the deadline and deposit amount are within means, I may join - but I agree, for us who are still breaking in and getting to really know our new F3s, it does seem a bit soon -
Tad
Quote from: Denis on June 06, 2009, 07:07:34 PM
Oh yeah!! Cedar on a OO, that would be sweet!!!! I've always wondered why there aren't more cedar topped Larrivees? Isn't BC chock full of the stuff?
Another thing I'm thinking is that Jean Larrivee started out as a classical guitar builder so the size (00), the tuners (slothead), the body joint (12th fret) and a cedar top with maybe EIR/Mahogany b/s would be an neat Forum IV offering but a tribute to the patriarch of the Larrivee extended family.
Okay, now I'll shut up.
fred
not that I am able to participate in F4, but I'd love to see OM/14 fret/24.9" (yes, like martin's 000, but that's just me)
well, good luck guys!
Danny,just check out the H&D site for the specs....I was turned onto that git by Zohn.He was certainly on the money regarding responsiveness!!
Egads,just blinking ones eyes while near "that" instrument got a growl from the body of the git!! :winkin: BUT...NOT CHEAP!!!!
I'm in a wait and see mode here.
Best to all
I guess a little dreaming is not a bad thing? Look how the F-III started, but in November. Jan. 2 being the end date for ordering. Maybe doing it this early will get something that ALL will be happy with? No one, other than Jeffrey, has the thought of a OOO body size, as he says, something like the Martin OM (which they call a OOO in their specs)? Think it's the perfect, small body size for a guitar that is about the most versatile. Would love to add one to my gang, but one step @ a time.
Jeff :guitar
But definitely a slot-head & 12 to the body. Wouldn't be right w/o it. :thumb
Quote from: rpm60912 on June 06, 2009, 01:17:35 AM
SCALE: 25.5" regular or Short Scale (I'm sure there are short scale fans here, was it "Big-Al"?)
Good memory Ricky! Yep -- I'm in the short scale camp -- something like 24.9 or slightly less. I would also want gloss vs satin -- I just can't make myself like the satin look/feel. The rest sounds good: 12 fret slothead, probably 00 body, 1 3/4 or 1 13/16 nut.
My "problem" is I now have a very nice Blueridge BR-341 (which is between 0 and 00 size, 24.6 scale, 12 fret, slothead, 1 7/8 neck with K&K pu &preamp). On the other hand, the BR-341and my OM-05 are both mahogany -- thought I read somewhere that everyone should have a least one rosewood guitar, hmmmmm.....I need to think about this!
Al
Quote from: dependan on June 06, 2009, 05:41:32 PM
I remember someone asking for a deep body 00. Now that may be a very unique Forum git.
00 size, but a deep 5'' or slightly more maybe 5 1/2.
I'm not getting any younger and neither is JCL, so we better keep moving forward.
Anyone who wants to run with this can have it. I just want to be "in". Unless you order a "shoulder killer" then I'm back to a Martin 000-15s (mahogany)
Danny, Am I reading this correctly that you're okay with a deep body OO even up to 5-51/2" deep? Or are you saying that could be an option but we still can order 4" depth?
Isn't the more than 4" depth the "shoulder killer" measurement? You insisted on 4" before, or am I getting this all wrong?
Please enlighten me - because now I've gotten to really like 4" depth max.
ricky
IMO, small body & deep depth.. is the most fantastic combination..
Like a nice Nick Lucas...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dNy6to7V7B4/R4KdsaHs9YI/AAAAAAAAAbI/m2Sco_5c_wE/s400/nick_lucas_bob_dylan_12_64.jpg)
Quote from: es-335 on June 06, 2009, 09:05:29 PM
I must ask, why so soon.....? Are your F3's not satisfying??
Actually, my FIII RW is starting to get scary good now. It's finally sounding like what I hoped it would. No, its not just my ears adjusting, either.
But to answer your question directly, its always fun to gas about new guitars. I'm not serious about it yet, and perhaps will not jump on board. But let's just see how it plays out.
This is very tempting and I'm potentially in on this. There wouldn't be a problem shipping to New Zealand would there? Now someone mentioned in a few posts back about pre-war scalloped bracing. Can that be done?
As for me my ideal setup would be a Glossed 00 sized 12 fret slothead with Adi/Rosewood combo, 5" depth, 1 1/3 nut, short scale with herringbone trim :thumb
Certainly interested to see how this develops....
Quote from: es-335 on June 07, 2009, 12:45:19 AM
IMO, small body & deep depth.. is the most fantastic combination..
Like a nice Nick Lucas...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dNy6to7V7B4/R4KdsaHs9YI/AAAAAAAAAbI/m2Sco_5c_wE/s400/nick_lucas_bob_dylan_12_64.jpg)
The Santa Cruz Guitar Company's H-13 is the modern Nick Lucas of note, its main feature is the 13th fret joint, and the deeper body.
That guitar sings "response".
Quote from: magictwanger on June 06, 2009, 08:34:12 PM
Btw,I love what I heard/saw/felt in my exposure to a H&D oo-sp(thanks to Zohn)...I'd hope this forum git was of light/responsive bulid,and basically "special".For reasonable monies,but it could be asking too much I'd guess.....Dealer?
The H&D 00 SP is based on the very responsive Martin 00-21 of yesteryear, and is very lightly constructed for the maximum use of Medium strings.
If I can get that response out of a Forum IV, I will almost certainly be in. Timing is of essence though.
Quote from: es-335 on June 06, 2009, 09:05:29 PM
I must ask, why so soon.....?
are your F3's not satisfying??
I was tempted for a F-III, but the LS-body was not the guitar I really wanted. I want a 00. I see forum guitars as special versions and the revival of non production models. The 00's and Jumbos I particularly fancy, and would thus have interest in for potential Forum-models.
I don't see it as a replacement for FIII owners, and by no means suggest it. :winkin:
Quote from: Muks on June 07, 2009, 04:56:11 AM
Now someone mentioned in a few posts back about prewar scalloped bracing. Can that be done?
I think that Larrivee changing from their symmetrical bracing, to a prewar Martin style bracing, is highly unlikely. It would be a serious longshot, at best. If they were going to do that, it seems to me, they would have done it with the Traditional series guitars which were visually modeled after the Martins of yesteryear.................
Quote from: rpm60912 on June 07, 2009, 12:40:36 AM
Danny, Am I reading this correctly that you're okay with a deep body OO even up to 5-51/2" deep? Or are you saying that could be an option but we still can order 4" depth?
Isn't the more than 4" depth the "shoulder killer" measurement? You insisted on 4" before, or am I getting this all wrong?
Please enlighten me - because now I've gotten to really like 4" depth max.
ricky
When the lower bout size is reduced to 14'' or less a deeper body is not a problem. The waist is much tighter also, which will drop the body and the end result would be "more" comfortable to play than the F-III which is over 15 '' on the lower bout and the waist is wider than even a standard OM.
Just look at your 00 and think an inch deeper in body depth. It would'nt extend my shoulder in the end more than the F-III does now.
Also I have a Martin OM-21, which most know is the same size as their 000 gits, it is easier to play than the F-III for me because of the tighter waist, the other specs. are almost identical. In fact my F-III now has a very nice Martin 000 case that it fits in nice and snugly. (and extremely protected)
The only issue I get in comfort with the OM-21 vs. the F-III is the 12 fret neck on the F-III is much easier on my fretting arm/hand position.
I never had any comfort issues playing my 00-09FM and it was at least 4 1/2 inches on the body depth. I think 5 !/2 would be no problem.
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 05:34:16 AM
The Santa Cruz Guitar Company's H-13 is the modern Nick Lucas of note, its main feature is the 13th fret joint, and the deeper body.
That guitar sings "response".
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 05:37:36 AM
The H&D 00 SP is based on the very responsive Martin 00-21 of yesteryear, and is very lightly constructed for the maximum use of Medium strings.
If I can get that response out of a Forum IV, I will almost certainly be in. Timing is of essence though.
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 05:43:43 AM
I was tempted for a F-III, but the LS-body was not the guitar I really wanted. I want a 00. I see forum guitars as special versions and the revival of non production models. The 00's and Jumbos I particularly fancy, and would thus have interest in for potential Forum-models.
I don't see it as a replacement for FIII owners, and by no means suggest it. :winkin:
Howdy Zohn, glad to hear from you. I think we may be on to something here. Most folks who don't know Gibson gits won't know about the Nick Lucas model, but it is one that I also would enjoy having. I think we can put together a very nice Larrivee with a similar "response". I know the light build of the H&D and the Gibson won't be there. But our F-III's came out with that "light" build feel to me and with a high level of responsiveness. Part of that may be due to the IS tops.
I would like my F-IV to be made with that IS, I think JCL found some very special top wood there.
As the proud new owner of a 00-50MT I'd agree that you guys are definitely on to a winner with the specs for F4.
In the words of a friend of mine when I told him about the new acquisition "If that isn't just about the perfect guitar I don't what is"
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Hey guys, I've been poking around for a 00 with slot-head for a while here. I'm in unless you push the price into the stratosphere (ie used 'cruz prices).
I like the 00 specs quoted by Danny and Zohn at the beginning of this already too long thread. :thumb
If I could have my way, the back and sides would be Madagascar Rosewood and the top would either be regular sitka or more of that luscious Italian Spruce. I'm open to just about any wood combination here with the exception of the sapele or hog tops, love the look but can't get into the sound.
I'm assuming this would be a California build starting at double the price point of the FIII guitars?
Wow! You have really got me interested. I've already been planning my next 00 purchase to be kept upstairs, but had in mind something under $500.00--a beater of sorts. What's an extra $1500? Oh, sadly, an exta 1500 is the difference between a happy marriage and a "frought" one. I don't think I can play in this sandbox.
What's the upcharge, btw, for a slot-head?
Oh, and Shuffle's pics need to be nominated for GoTM if they haven't been already. Great photos.
Quote from: GA-ME on June 07, 2009, 08:55:43 AM
I think that Larrivee changing from their symmetrical bracing, to a prewar Martin style bracing, is highly unlikely. It would be a serious longshot, at best. If they were going to do that, it seems to me, they would have done it with the Traditional series guitars which were visually modeled after the Martins of yesteryear.................
I remember JCL saying that the Traditional models are made with traditional aesthetics like the herringbone trim, Pyramid bridge, angled bone nut, slot head, volute dart, and fretboard inlays. He made it clear though that he specifically retained the parabolic bracing to retain the unique Larrivee sound. My point is I don't think there's any way that they would scallop and thus alter the very attribute they're famous for nl. the even balance. Just my opinion though. They might be game to brace the tops lightly for a better response with finger style in mind.
Quote from: dependan on June 07, 2009, 10:02:27 AM
Howdy Zohn, glad to hear from you. I think we may be on to something here. Most folks who don't know Gibson gits won't know about the Nick Lucas model, but it is one that I also would enjoy having. I think we can put together a very nice Larrivee with a similar "response". I know the light build of the H&D and the Gibson won't be there. But our F-III's came out with that "light" build feel to me and with a high level of responsiveness. Part of that may be due to the IS tops.
I would like my F-IV to be made with that IS, I think JCL found some very special top wood there.
Hey Dan - likewise buddy
Yes indeed, he seems to have found some seriously good stash there!!
deep and small body would be very nice.... too bad I am not able to chime in :(
but I told myself my next guitar will be 000-28ec!! :D.. I don't even know when that'd be...
anyhow you guys sound like have some good ideas!
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 12:02:53 PM
I remember JCL saying that the Traditional models are made with traditional aesthetics like the herringbone trim, Pyramid bridge, angled bone nut, slot head, volute dart, and fretboard inlays. He made it clear though that he specifically retained the parabolic bracing to retain the unique Larrivee sound. My point is I don't think there's any way that they would scallop and thus alter the very attribute they're famous for nl. the even balance. Just my opinion though. They might be game to brace the tops lightly for a better response with finger style in mind.
Zohn, that is my point as well. If Larrivee didn't significantly alter the symmetrical bracing, when specifically trying break into the Bluegrass market, with a production series line of guitars, it seems like a longshot that they would for a run that's likely to be 50 or less. As far as thinning the regular symmetrical bracing pattern profile, that is a better possibility, but I imagine that would be a difficult option to get as well. Potential warranty issues, concerns, and such, would have to factored into the equation for the company. That being said, it never hurts to try ta get what ya want!
I will say the standard 00 Trad. Series was the favorite Larrivee I ever played. It took all my self-control a couple of years ago to not buy a 00-50 from the Music Emporium in Lexinton, Mass. It was one of the nicest guitars, from any maker, I ever played. It was one of those production guitars that everything lined up on and it was a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, nice instrument!
Zohn's specs from yesterday' post pretty much nailed it for me.
1. 12 Fret.
2. Slotted Head
3. 00, with a most responsive top in either Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce - a truly finger style monster.
4. Back & Sides Hog or Sapele (yes, Sapele!!), of a somewhat figured appearance.
5. Gloss top
6. 1 3/4" Nut
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle.
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9"). (Typo?: I think he meant 24.9)
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo body binding, headstock veneer, heel-cap and end block-wedge.
10. Bone nut and saddle.
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio)
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock, or @ the body joint, and on the label, and on a brass plate on the Case.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style)
My only addition to his list would be:
Give an option of maple back and sides. I have played 6 Larrivees with maple back and sides (including my parlor) and every one of them has had truly phenomenal sound and clarity.
QuoteShort scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's
The true spirit of vintage OO's would be a wider neck, back then 1 7/8, - my favorite size -
but I could live with a 1 13/16.
I bought an L-03R as my first Larrivee and sold it at a loss because I could not adjust to the 'smaller' 1 3/4 -
after having a 1 7/8 for so many years....and bought the 1 7/8 SD-50 -
The OOO-50 and 60 have 1 13/16 -
since this IV is obviously, designed primarily as a finger style guitar , I suggest the 1 13/16 like its bigger brother the OOO-50, and bigger sister the OOO-60.
At least take a vote on it. Others have expressed interest in 1 13/16 -
could it be an option ? or even an option for 1 7/8 ?
My opinion may not matter much - since the final specs may put it out of my price range.
- Larry
Quote from: teh on June 07, 2009, 01:44:39 PM
Zohn's specs from yesterday' post pretty much nailed it for me.
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9"). (Typo?: I think he meant 24.9)
:tongue: yeah of course, it must be 24,9!!
Quote from: teh on June 07, 2009, 01:44:39 PM
My only addition to his list would be:
Give an option of maple back and sides. I have played 6 Larrivees with maple back and sides (including my parlor) and every one of them has had truly phenomenal sound and clarity.
:+1: Naturally every interested party should at least be inquired for. I have yet to see a Maple Larrivee myself. Would love to play one, might just change my specs hey? :smile:
I wonder if Larrivee will do the 24.9 scale? it seems too much like martin like
Larrivee parlor's short sclae is 24" correct??
even 24.75" would be nice too..
What about us flat pickers? I love the sound of all of the specs, but the OO is a finger style guitar. Are some just being a little selfish? :humour: I thought the idea of a Forum guitar was to appeal to all of the masses, not just those that desire a "finger picker's dream"? All will agree that the OOO-50, or -60, is a picker's dream. But it would also be a great size for us flattees. "Why can't we all just get along?" :?
Are we thinking down the road aways also, as I had mentioned, since alot of us still have or are getting over F-III fever? H***, I just got mine back from Jim about almost 2 weeks ago, so I'm still trying to "play the snot out of mine"! And, when we start looking @ "Traditional Series" specs, the price just goes up & up. I thought the whole idea was to work out a limited run, one of a kind, affordable guitar, not just available to those that are prospering in this economy?
I know this is just tossing ideas around, but it seems that when Danny & Ricky get involved, it turns into reality! Danny, IS? I thought he only had a pile "yea-high" & after ours it was "less-high"? Why don't we just ask for a special "Traditional" guitar, costing a fairly large amount, & have @ it? Heck, that should work! I only mention money because all don't have it to afford an expensive build. The F-III's were priced right & couldn't be passed up. Can we think about a OOO body, to satisfy all? And somehow work out a great deal that will appeal to all?:thumb
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: es-335 on June 07, 2009, 02:21:04 PM
I wonder if Larrivee will do the 24.9 scale? it seems too much like martin like
Larrivee parlor's short sclae is 24" correct??
even 24.75" would be nice too..
Jeffrey, indeed they do. The LSV-11 Finger style model has a 24,75" scale length.
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 07, 2009, 02:47:41 PM
What about us flat pickers? I love the sound of all of the specs, but the OO is a finger style guitar. Are some just being a little selfish? :humour: I thought the idea of a Forum guitar was to appeal to all of the masses, not just those that desire a "finger picker's dream"? All will agree that the OOO-50, or -60, is a picker's dream. But it would also be a great size for us flattees. "Why can't we all just get along?" :?
Are we thinking down the road aways also, as I had mentioned, since alot of us still have or are getting over F-III fever? H***, I just got mine back from Jim about almost 2 weeks ago, so I'm still trying to "play the snot out of mine"! And, when we start looking @ "Traditional Series" specs, the price just goes up & up. I thought the whole idea was to work out a limited run, one of a kind, affordable guitar, not just available to those that are prospering in this economy?
I know this is just tossing ideas around, but it seems that when Danny & Ricky get involved, it turns into reality! Danny, IS? I thought he only had a pile "yea-high" & after ours it was "less-high"? Why don't we just ask for a special "Traditional" guitar, costing a fairly large amount, & have @ it? Heck, that should work! I only mention money because all don't have it to afford an expensive build. The F-III's were priced right & couldn't be passed up. Can we think about a OOO body, to satisfy all? And somehow work out a great deal that will appeal to all?:thumb
Jeff :guitar
By the look of the posts on this thread, the majority seem keen for a 00. I didn't want a FIII, because I wanted a 00. Am I selfish then? Btw, I'm hardly prospering in this economy, and my country's currency is very weak against the US$. We haven't taken orders either, I see this thread as speculating at this time gathering interest, or did I miss something?
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 03:00:03 PM
By the look of the posts on this thread, the majority seem keen for a 00. I didn't want a FIII, because I wanted a 00. Am I selfish then? Btw, I'm hardly prospering in this economy, and my country's currency is very weak against the US$. We haven't taken orders either, I see this thread as speculating at this time gathering interest, or did I miss something?
As a matter of fact, count me out - I'll just have mine custom made...
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 07, 2009, 02:47:41 PM
What about us flat pickers? I love the sound of all of the specs, but the OO is a finger style guitar. Are some just being a little selfish? :humour: I thought the idea of a Forum guitar was to appeal to all of the masses, not just those that desire a "finger picker's dream"? All will agree that the OOO-50, or -60, is a picker's dream. But it would also be a great size for us flattees. "Why can't we all just get along?" :?
well, those who only flat pick would have to sit out on F4 :) I am sure there will be a F5 run...
My all hog F3 turns out to be a fantastic flat picking guitar... as well as finger picking..! I think it was win, win for both parties...
For the flatpickers in the group, a 000 would be the ticket. My Martin OM (same body as an 000) does well with a flat pick or finger style (more balanced and less bass than a dread). Since I have a D-35, I get dissed by the D-18 and D-28 purists over on the Martin Forum.
For what it's worth, I lobbied for a 12 string jumbo w/ maple back and sides on another thread and it looks like interest for a 12 string forum guitar died on the vine. Take heart and read this article about Norman Blake and his preference for smaller bodied 12 fret guitars for flatpicking including Gibsons and Martins. His signature model Martin is a 000-18 w/ 24.9 scale and 1 & 13/16 neck width.
http://www.flatpick.com/Pages/Featured_Artist/norman.html
Instead of OO and OOO used to define size, I would prefer to see actual dimenions used.
Larrivee's OOO size is not the same as Martin's OOO size.
Let's define the proposed dimensions for
upper bout
waist
lower bout
depth
overall length
body length
depth and lower bout are the more important ones to me.
I'd prefer 15" max, 14 3/4 ok for bout
depth max of 4 1/4 , 4 ok.
The letter OO and OOO (the original Martin standard) do not mean to same thing to everybody - just a caution.
- Larry
Talk of a Forum IV already? Are people bored with their Forum III's already and looking onwards to the next one? I'm still getting to know my Forum III and couldnt begin to contemplate another Forum guitar.
Well,I think this will eventually become a reality...There is money to be made,and with a poor economy, for "sellers too,someone will make a move(a dealer,obviously will get going....just good business sense).
Me? GADS, I'd feel like I was being a copout if I hesitated,but in all honesty I have an impending wedding of my daughter and think it might be a bit irresponsibe of me.....Yet,business has picked up...a bit!...Hmm. :winkin:
I'd gotten "two" fabulous OM's last winter...on hog/adi,one RW/sitka...Both very responsive and fabulous.I mean "incredible" instruments!Not a OO,but rally SO responsive and small bodied that the OO I'd want would really have to have magic....That H&D that Zohn is so hot on has that quality in "spades"!
I'd put out a thread asking if my GAS for a OO was viable,having such good OM's and the responses were 75% against my querry of really needing one....but....
of course I kinda want one....Very tough call!
Btw,this "Gas thing" sorta sucks! :tongue:
Best to all
I'm gonna happily sit on the sidelines for this one. However, if there is a factory tour at the end of this, I would love to be there. :cheers
Well so far... "We ain't goin nowhere"
But that's fine too. It may be too soon. And if anyone wants a "flatpicker F-IV" or any kind of forum guitar, nothings official about this thread yet.
So just make comments, throw in ideas and if it dies, we just let it die. I certainly don't see any need to make it a negative issue.
This is the "Larrivee Forum"and we all are just talking about a "Forum Larrivee"
Zohn can have a custom made, and frankly it wouldn't make me sad to add a SCGC or Collings or H&D to my little herd. I just like the specs. I've seen. If you look back at the F-III thread that "ricky" first started, I wanted a 00 slothead. Tadol suggested an LS, ricky posted LS and we went off to the races. I'm very happy with the F-III. But I still have a sweet tooth for a deep bodied 00 slothead and a F-IV order of 16 would be very special indeed.
But...if not...life goes on.
Quote from: teh on June 07, 2009, 03:43:54 PM
For what it's worth, I lobbied for a 12 string jumbo w/ maple back and sides on another thread and it looks like interest for a 12 string forum guitar died on the vine.
A "Forum" 12 string did not ever make it too far, unfortunately, but interest in a smaller body 12 string has not died. I'm afraid your jumbo maple is not likely to be the consensus, but I'm sure I've seen at least one on eBay in the last year, and there has been a J-09-12 in rosewood and in koa within the last couple weeks, and Jim Holler has an amazing L-09-12 Quilted Maple in stock that you may want to consider.
We are waiting for Jim to let us know if Larrivee factory will consider an LS body 12 string, and especially if they would consider a 12 fret neck option. Once we get some feedback from them, I think there are a number of us who will actively work on refining a spec. I don't think it will be a Forum instrument, but just a guitar that a number of people on the Forum have enough interest in to hopefully convince the factory to run out a few -
We'll see where it goes -
Tad
I'm with the "why so soon?" guy? Methinks that the real issue here is that Larrivee needs to reopen the custom shop.
Just my two cents' worth. I'll shaddup now.
My last post/opinion....I promise. :smile:
I believe that if this were to be "most" viable(economically,for many.....I'd think)it would be best to appear "after" Summer.Let's face it,many folks(like me) are just coming off of a scary downturn with all the economic reporting and scare tactics we are bombasted with regularly,especially in the media.We are reminded regularly how lousey things are,and "can" get....Not fun!!
That does not bode well for confidence,and spending excess I'd bet.Not to mention not wanting to even open my latest Mutual Fund info,I get regularly.Sheesh,very annoying to see investments reeling! :angry:
Yet,this time of year,many folks might actually "need" to take a breather from all the past season has offered in "angst" alone....It is called a vacation. :guitar...........They do cost some extra cash(the vacation....and mine is gonna be "really small",but oysheeesh,I need one).
Financially, I think after Labor Day,here in the U.S. would probabl be the best "business time" to approach this.
Just my "final" two cents.
Best regards
Quote from: dependan on June 07, 2009, 10:02:27 AM
Howdy Zohn, glad to hear from you. I think we may be on to something here. Most folks who don't know Gibson gits won't know about the Nick Lucas model, but it is one that I also would enjoy having. I think we can put together a very nice Larrivee with a similar "response". I know the light build of the H&D and the Gibson won't be there. But our F-III's came out with that "light" build feel to me and with a high level of responsiveness. Part of that may be due to the IS tops.
I would like my F-IV to be made with that IS, I think JCL found some very special top wood there.
Hey Dan, Check out these "Nick Lucas" models - expensive though but made with top materials and appointments...
http://www.dreamguitars.com/preowned/bozung/bozung_special_1007-189/bozung_special_1007-189.php
The Benetau is a 13-fretter, and has the original fret board markers as well. Oh boy, where can I get $8k?
http://www.dreamguitars.com/preowned/beneteau/beneteau_nick_lucas_180108/beneteau_nick_lucas_180108.php
The bridge and rosette (with contrasting darker border rather than the Abelone) are amongst others features I had in mind.
I think I might investigate some other builders as well though - The H-13 is top of my list, and the H&D 00-SP second. a Martin 00-18V is another.. :rolleye:
Zohn, you didn't miss anything. I know this is just a throw ideas around thread. But the reality of the specs being dreamed of push this guitar way up in price, & too close in time to the F-III build. Not knocking anything said, just stating my feelings about it and the final cost of such a guitar. That's all. Besides the size. This is how things come to fruition, through throwing out ideas & then Randy or someone doing a "Vulcan Mind-Meld" on us so we all agree. The more planning, the better. Gets what we all want in the end, w/o things being throw together so quickly, which seemed to work out fine for the F-III, fortunately.
Larry, I agree with you about going by Martin specs. Sammies had a guitar labeled as an "OM" Custom (-16GT series, after I requested info from Martin). When I got the info on this custom, which I had played & put on hold ($1500 used), I found the body size to actually be a OOO size, even though they called it an OM-16gt Custom. The damn fretboard turned out to be that micarta crap, also the bridge, which I hate when paying that much. Had asked the salesman & he said it was ebony. Didn't play it long enough for my fingers to start sticking to the fretboard. The only things custom on this were the S/B top & fake T/S binding. I think using the Martin body size specs, esp. for a OOO, would be the icing on the cake.
Seems most has been worked out, as given 2 body wood choices, something a little exotic but not Adi. slot-head, 12 to the body, etc.. The gloss would add $300-400, so matte would be a good choice, possibly polishing the finish if you wanted. Have to try to keep all down to as low as possible, w/o sacrificing our specs.
Enough, or too much, said.
Jeff :thumbsup
QuoteThe gloss would add $300-400, so matte would be a good choice
the gloss seems to be a popular idea for a proposed IV -
Personally I'd rather save $300-400 and have the matte - that I like anyway, I like gloss ok too.
I don't see why gloss or satin could not be an option - for a IV.
Maybe this was discussed in the III debates - I don't know - I did not follow them.
- Larry
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 08, 2009, 10:47:57 AM
Zohn, you didn't miss anything. I know this is just a throw ideas around thread. But the reality of the specs being dreamed of push this guitar way up in price, & too close in time to the F-III build. Not knocking anything said, just stating my feelings about it and the final cost of such a guitar. That's all.
Jeff :thumbsup
Hey Jeff!
No problem mate - if anything, your post confirmed that I actually need to save until I can get the 00 guitar I really want, which is not a Larrivee after all. Unless I get a really good deal on a nurtured 00-50, but I'd still want that finger style monster...
Thanx. :thumbsup
Quote from: lw216316 on June 08, 2009, 10:54:05 AM
the gloss seems to be a popular idea for a proposed IV -
Personally I'd rather save $300-400 and have the matte - that I like anyway, I like gloss ok too.
I don't see why gloss or satin could not be an option - for a IV.
Maybe this was discussed in the III debates - I don't know - I did not follow them.
- Larry
Larry, I think the decision on the f-III was based on the fact that Vancouver does the satin finish and Oxnard does the gloss, so it was one or the other, and affordability was always key to the f-III specifications.
Quote from: BenF on June 08, 2009, 11:05:45 AM
Larry, I think the decision on the f-III was based on the fact that Vancouver does the satin finish and Oxnard does the gloss, so it was one or the other, and affordability was always key to the f-III specifications.
I'm sure gloss can be done in Vancouver though. David Ianone's Morgans are made in the same Larrivee facility, using JCL wood, and all his guitars are gloss UV-Polyester as well.
They might have decided to do satin only as a business principle though.
I think there is just alot less hand work (thus cost) involved in the satin finish -
Zohn - Jim has 00-50 for a ridiculously good price. If anyone really wanted a 00 body and a slothead, this would have been gone weeks ago either when Denis offered it, or more recently now that Jim has gone over it. Anything that you get built new by Larrivee is going to be FAR more expensive if it matched those specs -
I think that part of the fun of the Forum is being able to dream about guitars that you would like to own/play/see - as well as some fantasy about what you wish might be possible to build. Larrivee is not a custom shop - they've made that decision. Maybe they would build a short run of something really custom if the project intrigues them and they have time in their schedule - thats the best hope anyone can have.
But I continue to enjoy hearing what people think they would love to hear and play, and this thread should continue to give people a chance to express those dreams, and maybe, JUST maybe, a spec and a price and a commitment can come out of it, and it will become the Forum 4 - I would enjoy seeing that.
Tad
QuoteJim has 00-50 for a ridiculously good price. If anyone really wanted a 00 body and a slothead, this would have been gone weeks ago
I passed on it because it has a 1 3/4 neck -
I'm looking for 1 7/8 or could live with 1 13/16 like the ooo-50, 60 have (which are not true Martin size OOO) they are bigger.
If the proposed IV has at least an option for 1 13/16 or 1 7/8
and at least an option for satin finish (to reduce price) then I'm interested.
I think this is more than a 'dream' -several people have indicated they WOULD buy.
- Larry
Quote from: lw216316 on June 08, 2009, 11:52:00 AM
I passed on it because it has a 1 3/4 neck -
I'm looking for 1 7/8 or could live with 1 13/16 like the ooo-50, 60 have (which are not true Martin size OOO) they are bigger.
If the proposed IV has at least an option for 1 13/16 or 1 7/8
and at least an option for satin finish (to reduce price) then I'm interested.
I think this is more than a 'dream' -several people have indicated they WOULD buy.
- Larry
Larry start a particular thread with these specs. It may get off the ground. The only thing I would say is 1 13/16 might make it, but 1 7/8 will probably be too wide for a consensus.
Tad, I think customs are being made at Larrivee quite often. The 12th fret is always coming up with custom made stuff, mostly from Vancouver.
Quote from: dependan on June 08, 2009, 11:56:55 AM
Larry start a particular thread with these specs. It may get off the ground. The only thing I would say is 1 13/16 might make it, but 1 7/8 will probably be too wide for a consensus.
Tad, I think customs are being made at Larrivee quite often. The 12th fret is always coming up with custom made stuff, mostly from Vancouver.
:+1: they have them made all the time, and in small quantities too.
Yes, the 12th Fret does offer some customs more frequently than most other dealers - I believe it was explained to us that the owner of the 12th Fret is almost as close to Jean as his sons - it is a unique and wonderful relationship that they share, and one that I don't think any other dealer can come close to. For that reason, it may well be worth seeing if they would act as the intermediary in putting together this order, especially if you want to do something VERY custom.
Its just surprising to me that this beautiful 00-50, with everything so many of you say you want so badly ( except possibly a 1/16" in neck width ) is sitting there at a price I would guess is 2/3 or less than what I think you're gonna find its gonna cost to do as the F4, and you could have it in your hands in a week probably at most.
Makes no matter to me - just saying what I think - I truly hope you are all able to come to a consensus and eventually get it built, whatever it ends up to be -
Tad
Quote from: tadol on June 08, 2009, 12:21:30 PM
Yes, the 12th Fret does offer some customs more frequently than most other dealers - I believe it was explained to us that the owner of the 12th Fret is almost as close to Jean as his sons - it is a unique and wonderful relationship that they share, and one that I don't think any other dealer can come close to. For that reason, it may well be worth seeing if they would act as the intermediary in putting together this order, especially if you want to do something VERY custom.
Its just surprising to me that this beautiful 00-50, with everything so many of you say you want so badly ( except possibly a 1/16" in neck width ) is sitting there at a price I would guess is 2/3 or less than what I think you're gonna find its gonna cost to do as the F4, and you could have it in your hands in a week probably at most.
Makes no matter to me - just saying what I think - I truly hope you are all able to come to a consensus and eventually get it built, whatever it ends up to be -
Tad
Tad just speaking for myself, I would only want a 00-50MT as a standard Larrivee. The model I would like would have a deeper body, same bout sizes, just deeper. ANd I would also like the IS or MT top.
David Wren was one of JCL's first apprentices.
Quote from: lyric_girl on June 08, 2009, 12:31:07 PM
David Wren was one of JCL's first apprentices.
Yea, there is some history on the 12th fret site about him working for Jean, and sleeping on his porch etc.
I want to visit the 12th fret one day and sometimes I feel jealous of y'all, but if we had a 12th down here I'm afraid I'd be flat broke.
Quote from: dependan on June 08, 2009, 01:05:53 PM
Yea, there is some history on the 12th fret site about him working for Jean, and sleeping on his porch etc.
I want to visit the 12th fret one day and sometimes I feel jealous of y'all, but if we had a 12th down here I'm afraid I'd be flat broke.
It's a very dangerous place to spend an afternoon, my friend. It's like GAS Central...
jb
I want to sleep on the front porch, just like Dave did @ Jeans! :humour: But there is no front porch & I, like Danny, would love to experience the store other than just the website. There seems to be something special in the air!
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: Zohn on June 08, 2009, 11:10:01 AM
I'm sure gloss can be done in Vancouver though. David Ianone's Morgans are made in the same Larrivee facility, using JCL wood, and all his guitars are gloss UV-Polyester as well.
They might have decided to do satin only as a business principle though.
Officially, Vancouver is satin finished gits. John Jr. did say they can do "anything." You're right, Zohn, I believe they have made a business decision to keep operations simple. Vanc-matte Oxnard-gloss.
ricky
Quote from: dependan on June 08, 2009, 01:05:53 PM
I want to visit the 12th fret one day and sometimes I feel jealous of y'all, but if we had a 12th down here I'm afraid I'd be flat broke.
I'd try to ask if Mr. D. Trump or Microsoft Gates would adopt me.
Quote from: jimmy buffett on June 08, 2009, 01:16:11 PM
It's a very dangerous place to spend an afternoon, my friend. It's like GAS Central...
Sounds like "paradise" on this side of eternity for me.
ricky
Quote from: dependan on June 07, 2009, 09:51:43 AM
When the lower bout size is reduced to 14'' or less a deeper body is not a problem. The waist is much tighter also, which will drop the body and the end result would be "more" comfortable to play than the F-III which is over 15 '' on the lower bout and the waist is wider than even a standard OM.
Just look at your 00 and think an inch deeper in body depth. It would'nt extend my shoulder in the end more than the F-III does now.
Also I have a Martin OM-21, which most know is the same size as their 000 gits, it is easier to play than the F-III for me because of the tighter waist, the other specs. are almost identical. In fact my F-III now has a very nice Martin 000 case that it fits in nice and snugly. (and extremely protected)
The only issue I get in comfort with the OM-21 vs. the F-III is the 12 fret neck on the F-III is much easier on my fretting arm/hand position.
I never had any comfort issues playing my 00-09FM and it was at least 4 1/2 inches on the body depth. I think 5 !/2 would be no problem.
Hey Bro! I always learn something new from you, thanks!
Okay... If we go with "GAS Central" in Toronto, David Wren could order this in small quantities thro' either Oxnard or Vanc
depending on if we decide gloss or matte.
This is more than "just a dream" or "opinions / ideas thread" - to me anyways. Timing due to recent FIII orders maybe an issue to those who have FIIIs, but there are those who did not buy FIIIs and may already be ready for FIV OO-slothead.
I think, we may be on to something here.
I'm now a satin 03 convert - so I prefer matte/satin finish for its affordability and thinner finish = more vibes.
If this is a go, I'd order it in IS/mahogany (is that better holly?) or OO-03MT.TWO MORE THINGS:
(1) At 5" depth - if Factory says yes, I believe this will be a pretty decent "strummer"... esp with IS top or Engelmann.
With a deep body OO, do they make OHSC this deep?
(2) I prefer Paddle Head - Slothead - I confess I'm not a big fan (but, hey, you guys already got me into OO, parlor, clear PG, open gear tuners - things that I did not care about and I've gotten used to them now and actually like 'em) - Can the regular "paddle head" be an option?
Will it make a difference in sound whether you have Slothead vs Paddlehead?
ricky
Quote from: Zohn on June 06, 2009, 07:06:02 AM
:+1: I knew it was only a matter of time right? :winkin:
Myself and some other forumites gelled some thoughts in January 2009 about a Forum IV, and the essence is as follows:
1. 12 Fret.
2. Slotted Head
3. 00, with a most responsive top in either Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce - a truly finger style monster.
4. Back & Sides Hog or Sapele (yes, Sapele!!), of a somewhat figured appearance.
5. Gloss top
6. 1 3/4" Nut
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle.
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9").
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo body binding, headstock veneer, heel-cap and end block-wedge.
10. Bone nut and saddle.
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio)
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock, or @ the body joint, and on the label, and on a brass plate on the Case.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style)
Options include different top (including the possibility of Hog), back& Side materials like Rosewood, Walnut, and appointments.
I also took the liberty of making contact with 2 different dealers in Canada and New York, who indicated keen interest.
I've sat here long enough and listened to you guys try to put this FIV git together, definately, this is my choice too, and if the going price is below K2, I'm sure I'd be in on it as well. I had my $$$ saved for my last Lav git, which was a PV-09, but I'll wait and see if this FIV, progresses. I think this is my choice over the PV-09. I've always wanted a small body with a slothead, a hog body and maybe a cutaway version, preferably a 'C' model :bgrin:. So go ahead, 'Make my day'
cheers
fongie
Question: Are there at least 6-10 buyers ready to order this OO Forum IV?
I need to know soon because I'm about to make a deposit on my Go-Guitar if we're still waiting until October order and Christmas 2009 or New Year 2010 delivery.
If we are ordering soon, I will put my Go-Guitar order on hold.
ricky
Quote from: rpm60912 on June 08, 2009, 09:19:43 PM
Question: Are there at least 6-10 buyers ready to order this OO Forum IV?
I need to know soon because I'm about to make a deposit on my Go-Guitar if we're still waiting until October order and Christmas 2009 or New Year 2010 delivery.
If we are ordering soon, I will put my Go-Guitar order on hold.
ricky
Rick if you can give me the details, $$$ and the specs, I'm in
cheers
fongie
Quote from: dependan on June 08, 2009, 01:05:53 PM
Yea, there is some history on the 12th fret site about him working for Jean, and sleeping on his porch etc.
I want to visit the 12th fret one day and sometimes I feel jealous of y'all, but if we had a 12th down here I'm afraid I'd be flat broke.
Danny,
I would be happy to take you there. Therefore, if you ever make it to Toronto, or it's environs, let me know.
Quote from: fongie on June 08, 2009, 09:29:30 PM
Rick if you can give me the details, $$$ and the specs, I'm in
cheers
fongie
Thanks Fongie. Don't know all the details at this point; but I'm hoping south of 2,000 and closer to 1,500.
Unofficially then and no particular order:
(1) Fongie
(2) Danny (I think he said he wants in several times)
(3) ricky
MODIFIED within an Hour: I can't believe I'm doing this publicly. Okay, a friend reminded me of my desire to live by a higher principle to thin out the herd and I have not told my manager about this FIV yet (that would be my beloved Beth, my wife). So, I have no intentions to provoke / enable us Forumites in haste here. I believe we're all watching with interest here. My heart wants in. My reality may prefer a later order date.
Rick, by the way I'm from Australia, so who ever organises this, can they consider our $$$ and post
cheers
fongie
o wow this is seriouly happening!
small body/deep depth.. you guys'll love it!!
I just thought I would mention that when we were in Vancouver for the FIII tour, I heard John Jr. say they would not make an -03 series (satin finished) slothead because if they did no one would buy the higher priced models. Don't know if that would apply to a special order or not.
Quote from: tadol on June 08, 2009, 11:43:48 AM
I think there is just alot less hand work (thus cost) involved in the satin finish -
Zohn - Jim has 00-50 for a ridiculously good price. If anyone really wanted a 00 body and a slothead, this would have been gone weeks ago either when Denis offered it, or more recently now that Jim has gone over it.
Tad
:+1: Thanx Tad
That is indeed a very good deal, but getting it out to SA is the challenge - between $600 and $700.. I keep my eyes open for one locally. There is actually an used LV-05 I have an eye on at the moment for the equivalent of $900 which is in good condition but for a battle scar or two, no cracks though. That is one major luxury we have here, guitars don't crack that easily because of favourable weather.
Jim has an amazing inventory - how's that SD-50? - he has the knack of finding them used hasn't he?
Quote from: fongie on June 08, 2009, 09:17:41 PM
I've sat here long enough and listened to you guys try to put this FIV git together, definately, this is my choice too, and if the going price is below K2, I'm sure I'd be in on it as well. I had my $$$ saved for my last Lav git, which was a PV-09, but I'll wait and see if this FIV, progresses. I think this is my choice over the PV-09. I've always wanted a small body with a slothead, a hog body and maybe a cutaway version, preferably a 'C' model :bgrin:. So go ahead, 'Make my day'
cheers
fongie
Hey Fongie!
Note that the scale length on my original spec as quoted by your post was wrong nl. 29,9" - That would make an interesting guit: a
SERIOUS Baritone in a rather small body... :winkin:
It should be 24,9" (std Martin short scale) or 24,75" as used by Larrivee on the LSV-11's.
Quote from: Zohn on June 09, 2009, 02:34:39 AM
Hey Fongie!
Note that the scale length on my original spec as quoted by your post was wrong nl. 29,9" - That would make an interesting guit: a SERIOUS Baritone in a rather small body... :winkin:
It should be 24,9" (std Martin short scale) or 24,75" as used by Larrivee on the LSV-11's.
Thanks bro', yeah thats kool, even better still :thumb
cheers
fongie
1. 12 Fret Yes
2. Slotted Head Yes
3a. 00 YES, YES
3b. Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce Any
4. Back & Sides Rosewood (am I the only one?)
5. Gloss top Satin all around, for price
6. 1 3/4" Nut Yes
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle. No opinion
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9"). (Typo?: I think he meant 24.9) Whatever is most traditional
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo Standard 03 body binding, headstock veneer*, heel-cap and end block-wedge.
10. Bone nut and saddle. Saddle only (for price, plus I use a capo pretty often)
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio) Depends on price
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock** No, or @ the body joint ??, and on the label Yes, and on a brass plate on the Case Depends on price.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood Uncertain, but leaning no
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style) Pyramid
* As much as I love showing off the Larrivee name, I like someone's suggestion of no name on the headstock in the traditional style. I'd absolutely love a stamped or burned name on the back of the headstock like the old Martins, but I wouldn't to go to the mats for it.
** For the "IV" marker, I like the idea of the 4 dots at the 12th fret. But for those who aren't into it, what about a simple/discreet roman numeral IV at the 12th fret or at the very end of the fretboard near the sound hole? Just a suggestion.
I like alot of the suggestions made so far and I missed out on the FIII. I'd love having a 00-slothead, but I think my aim would be more of a simple, vintage style 00-03R rather than bling, which also eases the pain on the wallet, but also for aesthetics too. I don't judge anyone who does want a lot of nice appointments on the FIV. It would certainly be gorgeous, however it turns out.
Also, I wouldn't be able to commit if we're thinking this year. I'd be interested planning it for production next year though.
Thanks.
There's too many fingerstyle players around here. :humour: You guys just got a fingerstyle guitar for the Forum 3, and now you're looking at another one for 4! I don't have the funds right now anyways, so go for it.
But, as a player who always has a pick in his right hand, I just want to plant the seed now that the Forum 5 should be a model that lends itself to flatpicking/strumming. What about an 03 slope-shoulder dread with 1 3/4 nut and flat peghead? That would be something different.
Quote from: Brodie001 on June 09, 2009, 09:16:26 AM
But, as a player who always has a pick in his right hand, I just want to plant the seed now that the Forum 5 should be a model that lends itself to flatpicking/strumming. What about an 03 slope-shoulder dread with 1 3/4 nut and flat peghead? That would be something different.
I'm a fingerstyle player Brodie001 and I still think a 12 fret L-03, L-03R or even L-03MT would be a killer guitar. And with a 1 3/4" nut? Yeah, I would pick, strum, tap...whatever, it would be a beautiful instrument I'm sure. It would be great for fingerstyle and you strumming/flatpicking fans would probably love it just as much.
Quote from: Brodie001 on June 09, 2009, 09:16:26 AM
There's too many fingerstyle players around here. :humour: You guys just got a fingerstyle guitar for the Forum 3, and now you're looking at another one for 4! I don't have the funds right now anyways, so go for it.
What about an 03 slope-shoulder dread with 1 3/4 nut and flat peghead? That would be something different.
That's the best suggestion I've heard. :thumb
Quote from: bluesman67 on June 09, 2009, 09:37:57 AM
That's the best suggestion I've heard. :thumb
I have to agree with that. :+1:
Quote from: bhika on June 09, 2009, 10:26:47 AMis
I have to agree with that. :+1:
Hmmmmmmm... very interesting. in essence you're talking about an SD-03 with a standard peghead. Would you want it to be a 12-fretter like the SD-50 / SD-60 ?
Tuffythepug
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 09, 2009, 10:55:21 AM
Hmmmmmmm... very interesting. in essence you're talking about an SD-03 with a standard peghead. Would you want it to be a 12-fretter like the SD-50 / SD-60 ?
Tuffythepug
a 14 fret SD would look plain weird would it not, I thought it was a 12 fret by design?
Quote from: BenF on June 09, 2009, 10:56:15 AM
a 14 fret SD would look plain weird would it not, I thought it was a 12 fret by design?
Not at all. Martin makes serveral sloped dreads that are 14 fretters...but I don't think Brodie's suggestion specified 12 or 14 frets.
Quote from: BenF on June 09, 2009, 10:56:15 AM
a 14 fret SD would look plain weird would it not, I thought it was a 12 fret by design?
I don't know Gibson has done well with the J-45, which is a short scale Slope D
Quote from: BenF on June 09, 2009, 10:56:15 AM
a 14 fret SD would look plain weird would it not, I thought it was a 12 fret by design?
It is. It's based on the early Martin 12 fret dreads. Having a 14 fret neck on that body would put the bridge too far forward. That body style usually has a slotted headstock so a solid headstock might look a little weird.
Quote from: bluesman67 on June 09, 2009, 11:04:08 AM
Not at all. Martin makes serveral sloped dreads that are 14 fretters...but I don't think Brodie's suggestion specified 12 or 14 frets.
The Larrivee SD is based on the Martin 12 fret D shape (long body). The only 14 fret Dread Martin makes that is a slope shoulder that I'm aware of is the CEO-4R (Slope Shoulder) and it's not the 12 fret D
shape , it is more of a Gibson J-45 shape. Not many realize that 'slope shoulder dreadnought' isn't a useful term to describe a body shape because a slope shoulder Gibson dread is about as different to a 12 fret Martin slope shoulder dread as a 000 is to a 12 fret Martin dread. If you guys ordered a run of 14 fret slope shoulder Larrivee dreads with a 1 3/4" nut you would be ordering L-03's.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 09, 2009, 11:18:44 AM
... If you guys ordered a run of 14 fret slope shoulder Larrivee dreads with a 1 3/4" nut you would be ordering L-03's.
Pretty close, I agree. 12-fret is the way to go. On the Martins, they make a sloped shoulder DM model (dread mahogany) that is a 14-fret. I thought there were more but maybe not.
Quote from: bluesman67 on June 09, 2009, 11:04:08 AM
but I don't think Brodie's suggestion specified 12 or 14 frets.
I never said he did by the way, I was just trying to add my tuppence worth. Probably shouldn't, as I am not part of the forum IV party this time. I'll keep me nose out.
I still think a 12 fret L-03, 03R and 03MT is the way to go....for the Forum V.
I think you guys should keep going with the plans for a OO for the Forum IV though.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 09, 2009, 11:18:44 AM
The Larrivee SD is based on the Martin 12 fret D shape (long body). The only 14 fret Dread Martin makes that is a slope shoulder that I'm aware of is the CEO-4R (Slope Shoulder) and it's not the 12 fret D shape , it is more of a Gibson J-45 shape. Not many realize that 'slope shoulder dreadnought' isn't a useful term to describe a body shape because a slope shoulder Gibson dread is about as different to a 12 fret Martin slope shoulder dread as a 000 is to a 12 fret Martin dread. If you guys ordered a run of 14 fret slope shoulder Larrivee dreads with a 1 3/4" nut you would be ordering L-03's.
One of the local Larrivee dealer employee's calls the" L" series a slope dread.
The Larrivee SD shape is definitely different from the L shape - more boxy/less curvy; the SD is what I had in mind. I don't like a 1 7/8 nut, though, which is my problem with the current SD model, and I'm indifferent about the peghead - I figured a flat peghead would be cheaper based on the conversation here. 12 fret seems to be the way to go with that body. So basically I'm talking about an SD-03 with 1 3/4 nut... and an adi top :smile:
Sorry about jacking the thread...
Quote from: Brodie001 on June 09, 2009, 12:10:27 PM
The Larrivee SD shape is definitely different from the L shape - more boxy/less curvy; the SD is what I had in mind. I don't like a 1 7/8 nut, though, which is my problem with the current SD model, and I'm indifferent about the peghead - I figured a flat peghead would be cheaper based on the conversation here. 12 fret seems to be the way to go with that body. So basically I'm talking about an SD-03 with 1 3/4 nut... and an adi top :smile:
Sorry about jacking the thread...
No thread jack at all. It is for these ideas. I don't care for yours much, but that doesn't mean others might not jump on it. I do agree that the L is different than the SD, I just think if you go with a SD it would not be so appealing with a paddle head. But that's just me.
Ricky, all sounds good, but I hate to disagree with you about it being a picker (will sound tinny). Closer to a large parlor, even if it's 5' deep. Will still lack a good sound if strummed. You guys plan on whatever YOU want, leaving many of us, some who I've PM'd & agree with me, HANGING! There will be An F-V, so that one will be another story! :humour:
As I've told you, I'm 6'6", so an OM or OOO is just right for me. Fits me perfect. A OO, just too small. Enjoy!
Jeff :guitar
If'in I was to get Larrivee to make something different and truly unique it would be something I've never seen them make. I'd be looking for a parlor with a punch. I'd order a simple 0-50, 03 version, with these changes: 1 13/16 nut and a 25.5 inch scale length. I'd try to shoot for a really small maple bridge plate, 12 fret neck joint, bracing pattern closer to the Forum III with the bridge splittig the rear tone bars or perhaps, even a single rear tone bar. I'd ask for a thiner top profile and thinner bracing profile. No fretboard markers(ala 0-16 NY) only markers along the binding. While I was at it I'd get herringbone/maple bidinding and rosette. If I could get all of this I'd also try to get them to make the body a wee bit deeper. Now that would be one to sit around picking! I'd have to sit down with the measurements to see how the long scale, 12 fret joint, would place the bridge to see if a slightly different mold would be needed.
Wasn't the FIII a good picker?... and strummer I may add.
Quote from: Brodie001 on June 09, 2009, 12:10:27 PM
The Larrivee SD shape is definitely different from the L shape - more boxy/less curvy; the SD is what I had in mind. I don't like a 1 7/8 nut, though, which is my problem with the current SD model, and I'm indifferent about the peghead - I figured a flat peghead would be cheaper based on the conversation here. 12 fret seems to be the way to go with that body. So basically I'm talking about an SD-03 with 1 3/4 nut... and an adi top :smile:
Sorry about jacking the thread...
I too like this idea. I share no love for the slotted peghead, and a 1 /34 nut is still very comfortable to play (I can play both and everything in between). Keep the finishing standard on an -03 model (okay, maybe throw in deluxe bridge inlays, or one other pricer option) and we've got ourselves a very budgetable SD.
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 09, 2009, 03:00:47 PM
Ricky, all sounds good, but I hate to disagree with you about it being a picker (will sound tinny). Closer to a large parlor, even if it's 5' deep. Will still lack a good sound if strummed.
My new-to-me Parlor Walnut Special Edition which is a P-03 is quite a picker/strummer and it ain't tinny. I used to say that I always hear the "boxy" even in my OO-09 and my "tinny" sounding Ami. But not anymore! I can't believe that the Walnut/Sitka combo does make a huge difference even in such a small real estate in the box. In saying my parlor is a strummer, it ain't as deep sounding as a dread, L, LS or OM - but my my my..... does it ever growl without ever falling apart. It's a little screamer of a guitar. You'll have to hear mine to believe it - my FIII LSV-03R has not seen any playing time since I got my P-03 Walnut almost 2 weeks ago. I believe I have two favorites in my possession: my FIII and my parlor.
So, imagine what an IS-top deep body OO may be able to do.
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 09, 2009, 03:00:47 PM
You guys plan on whatever YOU want, leaving many of us, some who I've PM'd & agree with me, HANGING! There will be An F-V, so that one will be another story! :humour:
As I've told you, I'm 6'6", so an OM or OOO is just right for me. Fits me perfect. A OO, just too small. Enjoy!
Jeff :guitar
Jeff, there were good folks here who sat out the FIII because they really wanted an OO. Could it be that it's their turn for the Forum IV - if this will come to fruition? As much as I want to jump in with both feet, I only got approval for a GO-Guitar and I can't even commit to the FIV - whatever it will be - unless my wife buys it for me.
Should there be a Forum V and it's a L or SD - I may have to sit that one out, because as you know, I'm 5'2" and shrinking as I get closer and closer to 50 :laughin: and talks of 1 13/16 or 1 7/8 nut width is too wide for my short fingers. I'm making do with the standard 1 3/4 but my Ami's 1 11/16 is perfect for fretted chords again my fingers are short.
Please don't feel as if you and others are being left out. I thought the 5" depth is incentive to win a few more who are sitting on the fence (and makes this git interesting enough for them to jump in) because that means more real estate and more ooooomph "thump" for a deep body OO with good sound when strummed. I'm a strummer too and deep bass is important to me too.
So, if you (possibly me too) and others sit this FIV-OO out, then as you said, there'll always be the Forum V - that may be a bigger body like L, SD, OOO, or OM.
I'll have to pull the trigger on my Go-Git because that one has house approval (better that my wife buys all my guitars and when I'm really good her twin sister too) and Sam Radding is waiting for my depo$it.
ricky
For the 00 FIV I would want the 4" depth.
However, since someone mentioned it, I wouldn't mind the slope shouldered dred, either (12 or 14 fret). I think a tobacco sunburst option is a MUST in this case!
Quote from: hellostarling on June 09, 2009, 11:53:01 PM
However, since someone mentioned it, I wouldn't mind the slope shouldered dred, either (12 or 14 fret). I think a tobacco sunburst option is a MUST in this case!
Wow, I'm not the only one dreaming of a tobacco sunburst ----- that would be sweet, though I'm still thinking satin.
ricky
I haven't been here for awhile. Imagine my surprise in seeing this thread. All I can say is, you guys are freaking crazy.....lol! Last episode dependan was bowing out of the forum and Ricky was selling all his gits but one, and now this? :rolleye:
:humour:
Quote from: dragon1952 on June 10, 2009, 12:31:40 AM
I haven't been here for awhile. Imagine my surprise in seeing this thread. All I can say is, you guys are freaking crazy.....lol! Last episode dependan was bowing out of the forum and Ricky was selling all his gits but one, and now this? :rolleye:
:humour:
Life happens. ricky (3 for sale & 3 to keep ==> FIII and 2 parlors)
Ricky, I'm just throwing out my thoughts. I personally would have a hard time coming up with funds this soon anyway. If the F-III was a OO size, I don't think that 78 would have been ordered. Just my opinion. I agree with all you said except that. I don't think the OO or parlor size is as popular as an OM or OOO would be, or is. And I don't think there are that many waiting to jump on this size. It's aForum, so alot is said & tossed around. By me included! Even an L or SD wouldn't appeal to me, not because I have both, but because I want it to be special, as you do, but also something I will play alot. Because of the problems I had with my F-III, it just sat until I sent it back to Jim & really have been enjoying it for just a little over 2 weeks. I have come to love this guitar, would love to have a RW also, but my L-10 fills my needs for a beautiful sounding RW guitar. I know the OO is unique, but like the F-III, shouldn't it be something alot can enjoy rather than those that just want & like a minnie-me guitar? :humour:
Depending on wood choices, I might consider an all HOG version, since that seemed to work well in that size for Martin way back. But still a piece of eye-candy, in my opinion again. Might be wrong & it would be one cool little guitar. Normally, RW works best with that one, but I know Martin made a few OO all HOGS, about 60-75 years ago. Sunburst, like you, would love it, but cost would make me prefer a matte finish. And I'm reconsidering buffing out the finish on my F-III. And it would have to be a 12 to the body, no arguments about that. That's one reason why our F-III's sound so great. So many attribute the sound to the IS, which is sweet, but with the LS body, I just don't think those new ones are going to sound near as good as ours, based on the neck & bridge placement, being 14 to the body. You know what a difference it makes. And only a poke with the comment above. Try buying clothes & shoes when you wear a size 15 shoe, 37" sleeve, 36" inseam (notice i didn't mention waist?), etc.. Thank God my son should only be about 6'3", having better luck. It sucks!
And I, like you, have to do the old sell something to get something routine, me having a wife that is starting to not put up with my "hobby", as yours does. Maybe if she (my wife) got a job, things wouldn't be so tense. Everytime I pick up a guitar to play, she asks "which one is that one now", not really smiling. As long as I don't have to put out money, all's cool. Otherwise, Mount Vesuvius! (She's from Italy, fluent, & only 4'10", but, what an attitude when she wants!)
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 10, 2009, 02:34:53 AM
And I, like you, have to do the old sell something to get something routine, me having a wife that is starting to not put up with my "hobby", as yours does. Maybe if she (my wife) got a job, things wouldn't be so tense. Everytime I pick up a guitar to play, she asks "which one is that one now", not really smiling. As long as I don't have to put out money, all's cool. Otherwise, Mount Vesuvius! (She's from Italy, fluent, & only 4'10", but, what an attitude when she wants!)
Jeff :guitar
I'd sure be joining the ranks of hobby-guitarists-collector-wannabes with a frowning wife if I ask Beth about a Forum IV.
I was playing my parlor tonight and she begged me to play guitar during the day; okay, I admit, I was strumming
like a maniac between 11pm-midnight ---- I bet (if I was a betting man) even fellow Forumites would be annoyed.
Gotta keep our Mrs (miss-us) happy and satisfied !!! When we're sweet to them, they're even sweeter back.
When they buy us (approve) guitars, it's the sweetest. :roll :nana_guitar
ricky
Quote from: dependan on June 09, 2009, 11:37:24 AM
One of the local Larrivee dealer employee's calls the" L" series a slope dread.
I think of the "L" more as a sloped shouldered SJ ("Small" or "Shallow" Jumbo)
I want to caution you all about putting too stiff of a wood on a small bodied guitar. If you put adi on a small body, the top will not move the way it would on a larger guitar. Not to mention it will take YEARS for this little guy to open up. I speak the truth on this... This is not some ficticious data I have created or read on the web. I own a small body with adi top from a differnt boutique builder and it sounds good. Its going to be years before it opens up. There is a guy I know who also has onther 00 deep bodied guitar with adi top. He has been trying to sell it for 7 months and no takers as it is just too stiff. You are creating a tight little beast if you do something as stiff as adirondack spruce on a 00. If you pick adi, the strummers will love it and the finger pickers will hate it. I would go no stiffer than German or Carpathian. For price, I would go for engleman or sitka. To add something else to the party, I would also ask if a soundport in the side is an option. A players dream as you can hear what you play. It does NOT affect the overall vloume of the guitar. I have played many and am getting ready to have one of mine professionally cut. Do something original and that you will enjoy. Just my 2 cents and food for thought.
Cheers :cheers
Quote from: rpm60912 on June 10, 2009, 03:00:06 AM
Gotta keep our Mrs (miss-us) happy and satisfied !!! When we're sweet to them, they're even sweeter back.
When they buy us (approve) guitars, it's the sweetest. :roll :nana_guitar
ricky
Ricky,
Just had to say that some of us just buy our own guitars and other stuff too.
If I waited for David to buy me a guitar, I would still be waiting.
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 07:36:01 AM
I want to caution you all about putting too stiff of a wood on a small bodied guitar. If you put adi on a small body, the top will not move the way it would on a larger guitar. Not to mention it will take YEARS for this little guy to open up. I speak the truth on this... This is not some ficticious data I have created or read on the web. I own a small body with adi top from a differnt boutique builder and it sounds good. Its going to be years before it opens up. There is a guy I know who also has onther 00 deep bodied guitar with adi top. He has been trying to sell it for 7 months and no takers as it is just too stiff. You are creating a tight little beast if you do something as stiff as adirondack spruce on a 00. If you pick adi, the strummers will love it and the finger pickers will hate it. I would go no stiffer than German or Carpathian. For price, I would go for engleman or sitka. To add something else to the party, I would also ask if a soundport in the side is an option. A players dream as you can hear what you play. It does NOT affect the overall vloume of the guitar. I have played many and am getting ready to have one of mine professionally cut. Do something original and that you will enjoy. Just my 2 cents and food for thought.
Cheers :cheers
The benifit of stiffer top wood is that you can thin it to a greater extent than you can a top wood that is less stiff and still have it remain structurally sound. You can build the guitar lighter. So, putting Adi on a 00 doesn't translate to an unresponsive top unless the builder doesn't utilize the greater stiffness to weight ratio correctly.
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 07:36:01 AM
I want to caution you all about putting too stiff of a wood on a small bodied guitar. If you put adi on a small body, the top will not move the way it would on a larger guitar. Not to mention it will take YEARS for this little guy to open up. Cheers :cheers
Yes, I made this point before. Adi would be a bad choice for a small body, it will sound terrible to the light touch...dead. A good builder would compensate and cut a thinner top to get it moving but a 00 size is so small I still don't think it would be a good choice. Italian would be far more suitable, it's not quite has stiff as Adi and it's already proven to sound great in the LS size.
Quote from: GA-ME on June 10, 2009, 08:41:02 AM
The benifit of stiffer top wood is that you can thin it to a greater extent than you can a top wood that is less stiff and still have it remain structurally sound. You can build the guitar lighter. So, putting Adi on a 00 doesn't translate to an unresponsive top unless the builder doesn't utilize the greater stiffness to weight ratio correctly.
True, but does this still make it the best sounding top for a small body? I think the properties of the other spruces may make them more optimal.
Bluesman, I have a Braz, Adi topped, ladder braced, concert, guitar that is the loudest guitar I have ever owned. It is 14 inches, on the lower bout, and a little under 10 inches, on the upper bout, and is a really unique instrument. I really hate terms like the "best sounding top" and such, because each set of wood is different. My point in the post you quoted is the materials used are not the largest determining factor in the overall voice of an instrument. It is the decisions that the folks putting the guitar together that most effect the final voice of the instrument.
Making sweeping generalized statements such as Adi on a 00 means a stiff tight guitar is simply not accurate. I think folks get stuck on the fact that a lot of desirable guitars today are old and it is the age of the instrument that makes them sound so good and they fail to understand that those guitars sounded damn good when they were first built. I've played quite a few really old guitars, made of superb materials, that were dogs and many brand new guitars, also made of superb materials, that were outstanding.
So, in answer to your question as to whether Adi is the best sounding top for a small body, I don't know. But what I do know is many fine small body guitars have been built using Adi on the top.
Larrivee does not build thin topped guitars. Thier CNC machines build consistant guitars that sound good for a good price. I own a 00 deep bodied guitar with adi spruce and mahogany b/s. It was hand build with the top as thin as the luthier could build it to last and sound good without blowing up. The guitar sounds great when strummed. I will say it agian..... when I tell you fingerstylist won't like it like they would something else that is true. The thinness of the top has nothing to do with how stiff it is. Adi is stiff and it is very expensive. A deep bodied 00 is a lap guitar. So, actually if you ask around to some of the top builders in the world that hand build guitars they will tell you this is true. My statement is very accurate as I have done my home work...
And to clarify what I just read.... There is NO such thing as a BEST sounding top. That statement would actually qualify as an opinion and IS purely subjective. It all depends on what sound you want and what style you play. My point in case... Adi is NOT for everyone...and yes it is VERY stiff and takes a LONG time to be broken in properly.
Bluesman... Your assumptions are correct based on guys that have been building guitars for over 25 years by hand....That's where I get my info from.
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 09:31:10 AM
The thinness of the top has nothing to do with how stiff it is.
This statement makes no sense to me...of course thickness and stiffness are very closely related :? That said I've never played an adi topped guitar smaller than an 000...so I have no first hand knowledge....I tell you what though...that 000 sounded GREAT!
Blue
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 09:31:10 AM
The thinness of the top has nothing to do with how stiff it is.
From Frank Ford:
"Individual luthiers, by the way, commonly take into account the stiffness of a top and may use different thickness and or bracing for tops of different stiffness. It's usually best to let the individual builder do his own thing. As a player, you can just request tone, but it's not a good idea to try to tell the builder how to achieve that!" Respectfully sir, the thickness of the top has quite a bit to do with how stiff a top is. If you take two peices of identical strength/stiffness spruce, of any variety, and leave one top at say .125 and profile the other to .100, are you telling me that the tops remain equally stiff. Are you asserrting they would still measure the same deflection and that it will take equal energy to move those tops? If this is your assertion, may I suggest doing some more homework?
In addition, if you carefully read what I said, it was I hate terms like
"best sounding top" because each set of wood has it's own propeties. Also, I AM a FINGERSTYLE player and I do like my Adi topped concet guitar. It is not dead and does respond to the lighest of touch and posesses ample headroom to drive without breaking up.
Red spruce makes a great top for small guitars. Two of the best smaller than OM guitars I've played had Adi tops. The '27 0-18 I had was more responsive than anything Larrivee makes no matter what the soundboard material they use. Of course if that 80+ year old Martin weighed any less it would float. I do agree that if they don't thin the top appropriately it may be too stiff. Of course Adi does tend to be the stiffest of the spruces but it doesn't mean you can't have a flexible Adi top or a Sitka top that is stiffer than the average Adi top. If it were me ordering a 00 from Larrivee I'd want an Englemann top with sitka or Adi bracing.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 10, 2009, 10:10:25 AM
Red spruce makes a great top for small guitars. Two of the best smaller than OM guitars I've played had Adi tops. The '27 0-18 I had was more responsive than anything Larrivee makes no matter what the soundboard material they use. Of course if that 80+ year old Martin weighed any less it would float. I do agree that if they don't thin the top appropriately it may be too stiff. Of course Adi does tend to be the stiffest of the spruces but it doesn't mean you can't have a flexible Adi top or a Sitka top that is stiffer than the average Adi top. If it were me ordering a 00 from Larrivee I'd want an Englemann top with sitka or Adi bracing.
Jeremy, I thought that it was clear I was asserting that the profile of the Adi top was was the important variable. Its high stiffness to weight ratio, in the aggregate, makes it a wonderful tonewood for about any application a skilled builder chooses to utilize it in. Perhaps, on a Larrivee, Adi isn't the best choice given the company's propensity to overbuild, but folks are asserting that Adi doesn't make a good material for small guitars, period! These folks simply do not understand thickness to weight ratios and how they are manipulated to produce good resulting instruments. Its is those type of sweeping, generalized, uninformed, comments that I am taking umbrage towards.
Perhaps, I misunderstood the initial posts and folks were indicating that on a Larrivee Adi isn't a good choice. If this is the case, then I'll agree. But, if on the other hand, my initial observations are correct and the assertion is that Adi isn't good on small guitars period, well that's just poppycock!
Quote from: GA-ME on June 10, 2009, 10:31:57 AM
Jeremy, I thought that it was clear I was asserting that the profile of the Adi top was was the important variable.
My post wasn't addressed to anyone in particular.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on June 10, 2009, 10:42:39 AM
My post wasn't addressed to anyone in particular.
'Kay :cheers
".....uninformed, comments that I am taking umbrage towards....."
This is the sort of know-it-all comment that I take umbrage towards.
Quote from: Walkerman on June 10, 2009, 10:47:19 AM
".....uninformed, comments that I am taking umbrage towards....."
This is the sort of know-it-all comment that I take umbrage towards.
Walkerman, hope you are having a nice day. Rather than attack what I say or how I say it, can we stick to the actual content and validity of what is being debated rather than making things personal? When a person asserts that the thinness of a guitar top has nothing to do with the resulting stiffness of that top, that is an uninformed statement. It doesn't take a know it all to understand that. It is only pejorative in that it corrects erroneous information.
Because, I am correct in my statements, and you can not refute those statements, you took a pock shot at me.You may not like the choice of my language, and that's okay, but it doesn't change the validity of what I am saying. So, I am asking that you stick to the actual debate and not simply fly in and take shots. I assure you I am not a know it all. There are many, many domains in which I have no knowledge at all. For instance, this dang Spanish class I'm enrolled in that makes me feel like a two year old......... :cheers
Sitting on the sidelines, this is where it feels this all is so far-
New Forum 4, basically a 00-60 with -
Option on neck width ( 1-3/4, 1-13/16, or 1-7/8 )
option on top wood ( everything )
option on body depth ( 4" to 5" )
option on finish ( assuming that satin would actually save money )
New Forum 5, basically a L or SD
If L - 12 fret neck , if SD - 1-3/4 nut
satin finish to save money?
Is that a fair synopsis?
Tad
Looks good Tad,....maybe need to address scale - Martin 24.9 seems popular and sure fits that type of guitar
- Larry
Quote from: Walkerman on June 10, 2009, 10:47:19 AM
".....uninformed, comments that I am taking umbrage towards....."
This is the sort of know-it-all comment that I take umbrage towards.
I rarely ever take an umbrage with me, even with black clouds in the sky. That's cause I usually am wearing a cowboy hat and if it does rain I don't get too wet. Besides those umbrage's are too bulky to carry around all day and some of them have pointy ends that might jab someone accidentally. :donut
Quote from: dependan on June 10, 2009, 12:14:32 PM
I rarely ever take an umbrage with me, even with black clouds in the sky. That's cause I usually am wearing a cowboy hat and if it does rain I don't get too wet. Besides those umbrage's are too bulky to carry around all day and some of them have pointy ends that might jab someone accidentally. :donut
LOL, point taken!
"...Because, I am correct in my statements, and you can not refute those statements, you took a pock shot at me.You may not like the choice of my language, and that's okay, but it doesn't change the validity of what I am saying...."
Well, no, you are incorrect that folks here are uninformed. Consider that statement refuted.
What the heck is a "pock shot?"
You know, you stick a big chip on your shoulder when you make degrading generalizations about posters here, and then you act surprised when someone steps up and knocks it off.
I think to clarify my portion of this... Of course a thickness will make a difference. We don't put 1in thick tops on guitars or even close to that so obviosly it makes a difference. I was trying to iterate the stiffness factor. Stiffness, does however have a lot to do with sound of the top. The species of wood plays in to that. Like I said... I have a 00 deep bodied guitar with adi top. It is stiff. It sounds better flat picked than bare finers... Thats all I was saying.
I digress.........
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 07:36:01 AM
I want to caution you all about putting too stiff of a wood on a small bodied guitar. If you put adi on a small body, the top will not move the way it would on a larger guitar. Not to mention it will take YEARS for this little guy to open up. I speak the truth on this... This is not some ficticious data I have created or read on the web. I own a small body with adi top from a differnt boutique builder and it sounds good. Its going to be years before it opens up. There is a guy I know who also has onther 00 deep bodied guitar with adi top. He has been trying to sell it for 7 months and no takers as it is just too stiff. You are creating a tight little beast if you do something as stiff as adirondack spruce on a 00. If you pick adi, the strummers will love it and the finger pickers will hate it. I would go no stiffer than German or Carpathian. For price, I would go for engleman or sitka. To add something else to the party, I would also ask if a soundport in the side is an option. A players dream as you can hear what you play. It does NOT affect the overall vloume of the guitar. I have played many and am getting ready to have one of mine professionally cut. Do something original and that you will enjoy. Just my 2 cents and food for thought.
Cheers :cheers
Bltprf,
Seems like you know something about the "bidness end" of a guitar. I'm curious about your opinion of cedar. It's used in some of the better classicals and they tend to be in the size of the 00. Any thoughts?
fred :?
Quote from: ffinke on June 10, 2009, 01:05:56 PM
Bltprf,
Seems like you know something about the "bidness end" of a guitar. I'm curious about your opinion of cedar. It's used in some of the better classicals and they tend to be in the size of the 00. Any thoughts?
fred :?
Pardon me for jumping in here, but I have a Goodall parlor with a cedar top. It's superb for fingerstyle, but it also holds up well to strumming. However, it is a bit more "fragile" and you need to handle your guitar with care.
Walkerman, a "pock shot" is a shortened colloquial expression, arising from the African American pool hall phrase, of the 40's and 50's, "out of pocket" which originally referred to a ball that was almost a good shot, but bounced around at the pocket and then, out of the pocket, thus causing a loss of turn. It was extended to mean behaving badly, in general, and subsequently shortened to "pock shot" in my local area and perhaps others areas as well. It still means behaving badly.
Now, let me get this done and over with, once and for all. It is not possible to reason or debate anything with you, because you seem fundamentally incapable of understanding the concept of disagreeing with information and then presenting a logical rebuttal. Instead, when your limited reasoning ability fails you, you generalize, personalize, and attack the messanger, rather than the message. You have consistently engaged in fundamental attribution error, towards the things I say, and engage in multiple forms of logical fallacy. From this point forward, say what you will, I will no longer respond to you or your weak mind. Good Day, good life.
Quote from: tadol on June 10, 2009, 11:28:46 AM
Sitting on the sidelines, this is where it feels this all is so far-
...
New Forum 5, basically a L or SD
If L - 12 fret neck , if SD - 1-3/4 nut
satin finish to save money?
... Tad
I'm interested in that SD-03 Forum V, right after career reinvention I and income replenishment II. :guitar
Norman
QuoteWalkerman, a "pock shot" is a shortened colloquial expression, arising from the African American pool hall phrase, of the 40's and 50's, "out of pocket" which originally referred to a ball that was almost a good shot, but bounced around at the pocket and then, out of the pocket, thus causing a loss of turn.
true - that's why you will often see a professional player (good for amature to do also) - remove balls from one pocket and place them in another before making a shot. I've only had it happen once but it was a very painful experience. especially since I was playing 8 ball and in the process of making the 8 ball for the win. :crying: :mad: :angry:
It is especially important to do if you are shooting hard or the pocket is almost full.
- Larry
The sky is blue.
Fred,
Walkerman is correct about the fragile nature of the cedar. I love the sound of a cedar top on a small to mid sized guitar. By no means is is inferior to other woods, but different in many ways. It is much softer than the spruce woods. If not properly humidified, it can crack much easier and it has a higher probability to ding the top due to its softness. It doen't take any more himidification than any other wood, but you have to make sure it is humidified without missing a lick. The sound is just a lucious, woody and warm sound when played with bare fingers or light picking. A GREAT choice for finger style no doubt. It is easily overdriven if flat picked with aggression. It does not have the same volume headroom as any of the spruces, but maybe more than a mahogany or Koa top. There again the stiffer tops are harder to move where as softer tops (such as cedar) move with less energy from the strings. All is all if you want a great choice for a fingerstyle guitar or light picking and like a warm sound, I personally think cedar is a fine choice. I don't know much, but I do as much homework before I buy. I, Like may others on this forum have owned many guitars. Enjoy the great hunt!
Rich
Quote from: GA-ME on June 10, 2009, 01:15:47 PM
Walkerman, a "pock shot" is a shortened colloquial expression, arising from the African American pool hall phrase, of the 40's and 50's, "out of pocket" which originally referred to a ball that was almost a good shot, but bounced around at the pocket and then, out of the pocket, thus causing a loss of turn. It was extended to mean behaving badly, in general, and subsequently shortened to "pock shot" in my local area and perhaps others areas as well. It still means behaving badly.
Now, let me get this done and over with, once and for all. It is not possible to reason or debate anything with you, because you seem fundamentally incapable of understanding the concept of disagreeing with information and then presenting a logical rebuttal. Instead, when your limited reasoning ability fails you, you generalize, personalize, and attack the messanger, rather than the message. You have consistently engaged in fundamental attribution error, towards the things I say, and engage in multiple forms of logical fallacy. From this point forward, say what you will, I will no longer respond to you or your weak mind. Good Day, good life.
Now that's funny...I don't care who you are. Great imagination. The phrase is "potshot" not "pock shot."
Main Entry: 1pot·shot
Pronunciation: \-ˌshät\
Function: noun
Etymology: from the notion that such a shot is unsportsmanlike and worthy only of one whose object is to fill the cooking pot
Date: 1858
1 : a shot taken from ambush or at a random or easy target
2 : a critical remark made in a random or sporadic manner
Pock shot.....LMAO...the fact that you would make up that pool story cracks me up.
Or, are you saying that when you posted this "Because, I am correct in my statements, and you can not refute those statements, you took a pock shot at me...."
What you were saying was....Because I am correct in my statements, and you cannot refute those statements, you took a behaving badly at me?
Sorry, it just doesn't have that "ring" to it.
"...GA-ME says"...you generalize, personalize, and attack the messanger, rather than the message. ..."
Actually you are the one who generalizes and attacks posters here, saying they are unwilling to be educated or uninformed when they don't agree with you. I simply disagree with your assessment.
I thought it was the North and South that took pot shots, not the East and West. :donut
Quote from: GeeNorm on June 10, 2009, 01:20:05 PM
I'm interested in that SD-03 Forum V, right after career reinvention I and income replenishment II. :guitar
Norman
Right there with ya! Especially since at this point this is all primarily entertainment, as the boys and girls argue about technical details that don't seem to advance the goal of the majority - but I may be wrong. I thought the goal was to spec a reasonably affordable custom guitar that was within the normal construction processes of the Larrivee FACTORY - not the probable capabilities of JCL or any particular member of his family, or the theoretical use of materials that they may or may not have on hand, or alternate construction techniques that other builders use. I think the reason we got IS on the Forum 3 at such a good price was because they had it in stock, and this was a very generous use of some of the material that might not otherwise be up to their standards for -09 and -10 instruments which the rest is probably destined to be used on - But as I said, I may very well be completely wrong -
Tad
One thing that seemd odd to me was the fact that so many different tone woods were used. I thought that a particular run of forum guitars should all be the same. I guess the only thing that is similar on the last set of forum guitars was the appointments.
Quote from: dependan on June 10, 2009, 03:21:48 PM
I thought it was the North and South that took pot shots, not the East and West. :donut
Danny, I never did much hunting, except the occasional coon hunt, with my paternal grandfather and his hounds, and I ain't been to war, so I don't know about the pot shot as much. I guess I gave up on the coon hunting pretty quickly because, once the coon was treed, any shot seemed like a pot-shot to me! I did, however, hang out in pool halls around my neck of the woods, quite frequently, when I was more predisposed to the activities that go on in such establishments. As far as pock, or pot shots coming from the East and West, the East side of the equation is through with that exchange, permantly.
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 01:53:38 PM
Fred,
Walkerman is correct about the fragile nature of the cedar. I love the sound of a cedar top on a small to mid sized guitar. By no means is is inferior to other woods, but different in many ways. It is much softer than the spruce woods. If not properly humidified, it can crack much easier and it has a higher probability to ding the top due to its softness. It doen't take any more himidification than any other wood, but you have to make sure it is humidified without missing a lick.
I would have to agree with these statements. I've owned many, many acoustic guitars with spruce or mahogany tops but only one with a cedar top. Guess which was the only one to develop a crack in the top. And, for the record, I admit that I was probably lax in the humidification department; this was well before I really knew anything about the need to prevent drying out of the wood. Still, it should be noted that cedar is notorious for cracking if not meticulously cared for. Just use proper humidification techniques and all should be well.
Just for the record, this forum has officially jumped the shark for me.
Quote from: Yoyodyne on June 10, 2009, 04:45:52 PM
Just for the record, this forum has officially jumped the shark for me.
Jump the shark: "
a term to describe a moment when somethin that was once great has reached a point where it will now decline in quality and popularity. Origin of this phrase comes from a Happy Days episode where the Fonz jumped a shark on waterskis. Thus was labeled the lowest point of the show."
Okay, I guess I agree.
Back on the Forum IV track: Today I played a couple of small Santa Cruz guitars, (1) a cute Firefly and a (2) H-13. Both had amazing sound but the H-13 was a depth monster what with about 5 inches of thickness at the lower bout. That depth really brought out the bass, a really smooth sound. The 4k price tag brought me back to reality.
Quote from: tuffythepug on June 10, 2009, 04:32:17 PM
I would have to agree with these statements. I've owned many, many acoustic guitars with spruce or mahogany tops but only one with a cedar top. Guess which was the only one to develop a crack in the top. And, for the record, I admit that I was probably lax in the humidification department; this was well before I really knew anything about the need to prevent drying out of the wood. Still, it should be noted that cedar is notorious for cracking if not meticulously cared for. Just use proper humidification techniques and all should be well.
Thanks for that tip fellows. I have a cedar top instrument, and I didn't realize that.
Quote from: hellostarling on June 09, 2009, 08:46:30 AM
1. 12 Fret Yes
2. Slotted Head Yes
3a. 00 YES, YES
3b. Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce Any
4. Back & Sides Rosewood (am I the only one?)
5. Gloss top Satin all around, for price
6. 1 3/4" Nut Yes
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle. No opinion
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9"). (Typo?: I think he meant 24.9) Whatever is most traditional
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo Standard 03 body binding, headstock veneer*, heel-cap and end block-wedge.
10. Bone nut and saddle. Saddle only (for price, plus I use a capo pretty often)
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio) Depends on price
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock** No, or @ the body joint ??, and on the label Yes, and on a brass plate on the Case Depends on price.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood Uncertain, but leaning no
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style) Pyramid
* As much as I love showing off the Larrivee name, I like someone's suggestion of no name on the headstock in the traditional style. I'd absolutely love a stamped or burned name on the back of the headstock like the old Martins, but I wouldn't to go to the mats for it.
** For the "IV" marker, I like the idea of the 4 dots at the 12th fret. But for those who aren't into it, what about a simple/discreet roman numeral IV at the 12th fret or at the very end of the fretboard near the sound hole? Just a suggestion.
I like alot of the suggestions made so far and I missed out on the FIII. I'd love having a 00-slothead, but I think my aim would be more of a simple, vintage style 00-03R rather than bling, which also eases the pain on the wallet, but also for aesthetics too. I don't judge anyone who does want a lot of nice appointments on the FIV. It would certainly be gorgeous, however it turns out.
Also, I wouldn't be able to commit if we're thinking this year. I'd be interested planning it for production next year though.
Thanks.
OK, if this F-IV don't proceed this year, how about a definate next year? This will give 'F-111' owners time to sell theirs in time for the 'IV' :humour: :humour: :humour:
Hellostarling, definately love your added specs, especially the 'IV' being placed at the 12th fret or the very end. As for the top, I'd like mine to be 'Hog', and glossed, if thats ok? But if it keeps the $$$ down, then I'd follow suit. I think 'Blings' should be optional and with your choice, so is the PG. Deeper body, 'Yes', but again $$$
If the F-IV can be tabled to Jean now for next year, and the members given the 'Specs', 'Options', '$$$', this will help with the preparations regarding saving $$$ and truely be appreciated to most overseas buyers.
cheers
fongie
cheers
fongie
if you guys get a chance, try the Elvis Costello Sig.
It is a great guitar.. Probably what F4 could turn out to be.
Fongie, I'm liking what I'm seeing, esp. the HOG top. Think it will work out as I said, in the style of older Martin all HOGS? I think they were OO size, different designation (O-17?). If it's similar to those, I'll hold off on my Martin OOO-15s for this one. Also will give me time to save some dinero?
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 10, 2009, 07:51:34 PM
Fongie, I'm liking what I'm seeing, esp. the HOG top. Think it will work out as I said, in the style of older Martin all HOGS? I think they were OO size, different designation (O-17?). If it's similar to those, I'll hold off on my Martin OOO-15s for this one. Also will give me time to save some dinero?
Jeff :guitar
Definately, I don't have a 'all Hog', and the more I get to see members display theirs, the more I want one. Definately looks great too :thumb
cheers
fongie
Quote from: prof_stack on June 10, 2009, 06:30:46 PM
Back on the Forum IV track: Today I played a couple of small Santa Cruz guitars, (1) a cute Firefly and a (2) H-13. Both had amazing sound but the H-13 was a depth monster what with about 5 inches of thickness at the lower bout. That depth really brought out the bass, a really smooth sound. The 4k price tag brought me back to reality.
Here is part of the SCGC H-13 description. It is what I would like to see built as an F-IV but I know it won't.
"With its player-driven design that has 13 frets clear of the body, plus special soundhole and bridge locations, Santa Cruz Guitar Company's H 13 Fret joins the SCGC H lineup with a sweet tone that capitalizes upon the best attributes of a 12-fret's resonance and a 14-fret's access. As a result, it's ideally suited to fingerpicking, coaxing the sonic character of each note while projecting an overall tonal depth.
Despite its small appearance, the H 13 Fret employs a body depth approaching that of a much larger dreadnought-sized guitar, producing extra volume and bass support to bolster its rich tone. Its comfortable size and complex tonal characteristics make it especially appealing to traditional players, soloists, and recording artists who demand maximum warmth and tonal versatility."
Quote from: hellostarling on June 09, 2009, 08:46:30 AM
1. 12 Fret Yes
2. Slotted Head no prefrence
3a. 00 yes
3b. Adi, Engelman, or Italian Spruce Not Adi, Sitka, Engelman, Italian
4. Back & Sides Rosewood -or- any wood that they want to present ( i never heard of Sliver Oak before i playeda really good one)
5. Gloss top Satin all around, for price +1
6. 1 3/4" Nut prefer 13/16 -or- 7/8
7. 2 5/16" string spacing at the saddle. yes
8. Short scale was also mentioned in the true spirit of 00's (29,9"). (Typo?: I think he meant 24.9) 24.9l
9. Rosewood or Cocobolo Standard 03 body binding, headstock veneer*, heel-cap and end block-wedge + 1
10. Bone nut and saddle. what ever keeps costs down, i will replace them myself anyway
11. Upgraded tuners (at least Gotoh or Grover Sta-tites in 18:1 ratio) what ever keeps costs down, i will replace them myself anyway
12. Unique IV marked on the head stock** No, or @ the body joint ??, and on the label Yes, and on a brass plate on the Case Depends on price + 1.
13. Very simple rosette in a figured wood what ever keeps costs down, but sounds nice
14. Ebony finger board and bridge (bridge in a straight traditional, or a Pyramid style) Pyramid + 1
I would like to see the orignal JCL logo as seen on the re-isssue 09's recently on the headstock.
Quote from: dermot on June 11, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
I would like to see the orignal JCL logo as seen on the re-isssue 09's recently on the headstock.
Hey dermot, thats a great idea, I'll be in for that as well
cheers
fongie
Quote from: dermot on June 11, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
I would like to see the orignal JCL logo as seen on the re-isssue 09's recently on the headstock.
That would be really kewl. Good idea.
Quote from: dermot on June 11, 2009, 12:25:34 AM
I would like to see the original JCL logo as seen on the re-isssue 09's recently on the headstock.
I love that logo, but when it was suggested for the forum III it was noted that JCL doesn't like it because it is his initials, and it is not just his company now, it is him and his wife and sons. It was used on the 40th anniversary model because that was his tribute model. Suspect you might struggle to get this agreed, although it is the nicest logo in my opinion.
Quote from: prof_stack on June 10, 2009, 06:30:46 PM
Back on the Forum IV track: Today I played a couple of small Santa Cruz guitars, (1) a cute Firefly and a (2) H-13. Both had amazing sound but the H-13 was a depth monster what with about 5 inches of thickness at the lower bout. That depth really brought out the bass, a really smooth sound. The 4k price tag brought me back to reality.
What did you think of the Firefly. I saw one at the Sta. Cruz shop. It reminded me of a jumbo shape in a parlor size. How would you compare it to a Larrivee parlor?
Quote from: dependan on June 10, 2009, 10:28:52 PM
Here is part of the SCGC H-13 description. It is what I would like to see built as an F-IV but I know it won't.
"With its player-driven design that has 13 frets clear of the body, plus special soundhole and bridge locations, Santa Cruz Guitar Company's H 13 Fret joins the SCGC H lineup with a sweet tone that capitalizes upon the best attributes of a 12-fret's resonance and a 14-fret's access. As a result, it's ideally suited to fingerpicking, coaxing the sonic character of each note while projecting an overall tonal depth.
Despite its small appearance, the H 13 Fret employs a body depth approaching that of a much larger dreadnought-sized guitar, producing extra volume and bass support to bolster its rich tone. Its comfortable size and complex tonal characteristics make it especially appealing to traditional players, soloists, and recording artists who demand maximum warmth and tonal versatility."
I've been thinking of these lately also. Have not played one for a number of years but I was completely taken by the light build and tone of the guitar. Starting to think I should pursue a real Santa Cruz instead of keep trying to find a less expensive guitar that's almost as good...
Quote from: Walkerman on June 11, 2009, 09:39:10 AM
What did you think of the Firefly. I saw one at the Sta. Cruz shop. It reminded me of a jumbo shape in a parlor size. How would you compare it to a Larrivee parlor?
The Firefly is an amazing short-scale tone monster. Off the showroom wall it had a nicer tone than ANY Larrivee parlor I have played. Deeper body contributes, I'm sure. That and lighter bracing. Very, very nice small guitar.
The sale price was just a little north of US 3k, more than most any of us would spend for a parlor guitar. But in a perfect world ...
Quote from: Bltprf502 on June 10, 2009, 01:53:38 PM
Fred,
Walkerman is correct about the fragile nature of the cedar. I love the sound of a cedar top on a small to mid sized guitar. By no means is is inferior to other woods, but different in many ways. It is much softer than the spruce woods. If not properly humidified, it can crack much easier and it has a higher probability to ding the top due to its softness. It doen't take any more himidification than any other wood, but you have to make sure it is humidified without missing a lick. The sound is just a lucious, woody and warm sound when played with bare fingers or light picking. A GREAT choice for finger style no doubt. It is easily overdriven if flat picked with aggression. It does not have the same volume headroom as any of the spruces, but maybe more than a mahogany or Koa top. There again the stiffer tops are harder to move where as softer tops (such as cedar) move with less energy from the strings. All is all if you want a great choice for a fingerstyle guitar or light picking and like a warm sound, I personally think cedar is a fine choice. I don't know much, but I do as much homework before I buy. I, Like may others on this forum have owned many guitars. Enjoy the great hunt!
Rich
This is for Tuffy and Walkerman too.
I was just checking in to the Martin forum and happened to run across a discussion about tonewoods. Check out the red cedar top comments from this Rockbridge guitars: http://www.rockbridgeguitar.com/cedar.htm. You guys are probably right about the appropriateness for a ForumIV because of the variety of playing styles but for us fingerstylers it might be a real treat in a small bodied guitar.
Thanks for the many varied opinions.
fred
The problem is Larrivee won't use cedar any more....
I have a cedar guitar about the size of a LSV, and it's very diffrent from the spruce toped guitars... not better or worse, but i think one would want to play a cedar guitar before comitting to a custom with that top wood.
d.
Here is what James Goodall says about cedar. You notice that he mentions fragility, with regards to scarring and shearing of braces. He also says it is LESS sensitive to humidity changes, rather than more sensitive, as some have suggested.
"....Cedar
Slightly less strength than Engelmann. Color ranging from light cocoa brown to reddish brown to medium dark chocolate. Doesn't exhibit medullary silking. Scars fairly easily and braces can shear off if bumped. My personal opinion is it's better suited to classical building than steel string but our cedar/rosewood Grand Concerts and Standards sound quite impressive right from the start. Light gauge strings only. Powerful fingerstyle tone with lots of brilliance and sustain, exceptional clarity, and focused bass (with a dry, woody sound). Less sensitive to humidity variations, and dampens the string noise less than the spruces. Some small question about long term tone quality...."
Are some seriously considering cedar? Yes, less break-in period, initially warmer, but a softer top wood that requires being very carefull when touching your guitar. A nice spruce would be a better choice, IMO. As some said, maybe an Engleman. But the cost would go up with the quality of the top. Keep the cedar on the classicals, where it works best. A smaller body like this needs a brighter, snappier top on it. Cedar is used by alot of builders, but mainly on OM & OOO sized guitars, one that comes to mind , James Olson. Made a cedar topped RW body for James Taylor for years, but on a larger body than a OO. There's a method behind his madness! And a reason!
Ben & Lynda, yes, the logo would be nice, but as Ben said, there are reasons it won't be used. Unless someone comes up with a new one that incorporates the "family"? Someone start designing & maybe it will be such a nice one that they might incorporate it into a guitar? A generic but sweet one that uses letters, maybe 4 instead of 3? There are some good graphics people here (Matt?), so someone might come up with a good one! Matt, I have faith in your work, seeing how that's what you do for a living.
If the OO body is the one of choice, I'd like to see, as I said, an all HOG choice in the wood options. Think it would be a sweet blues guitar. That's what Martin made them for. If all comes to fruition, I hope that is possible! :thumb
Jeff :guitar
I'm going to PM Matt & challenge him to come up with a new letter logo. See what he can do.
Quote from: Walkerman on June 11, 2009, 12:47:46 PM
Here is what James Goodall says about cedar. You notice that he mentions fragility, with regards to scarring and shearing of braces. He also says it is LESS sensitive to humidity changes, rather than more sensitive, as some have suggested.
to humidity variations, and dampens the string noise less than the spruces. Some small question about long term tone quality...."
The Rockbridge site mentioned in a post above also notes cedar is less susceptible to humidity issues - I never realized that:
"While spruce is the more traditional wood for steel string guitars, the use of cedar has been gaining acceptance in the last few decades and we love the sound it imparts. When properly braced, cedar soundboards provide a combination of CRISPNESS, VOLUME, DEPTH, and RESPONSIVENESS. That is a real eye-opener to the uninitiated. As an additional bonus, cedar tops reach their full tonal maturity or "get broken in" much faster than spruce. They're also less susceptible to variations in humidity than spruce. Cedar is often the choice wood for finger-style guitarists, and it is best used on small bodied instruments."Al
Quote from: ARK on June 11, 2009, 02:12:36 PM
The Rockbridge site mentioned in a post above also notes cedar is less susceptible to humidity issues - I never realized that:
"While spruce is the more traditional wood for steel string guitars, the use of cedar has been gaining acceptance in the last few decades and we love the sound it imparts. When properly braced, cedar soundboards provide a combination of CRISPNESS, VOLUME, DEPTH, and RESPONSIVENESS. That is a real eye-opener to the uninitiated. As an additional bonus, cedar tops reach their full tonal maturity or "get broken in" much faster than spruce. They're also less susceptible to variations in humidity than spruce. Cedar is often the choice wood for finger-style guitarists, and it is best used on small bodied instruments."
Al
That's why I'm keeping my cedar-top Ami with laminate cherry b&s. My cheapest git yet can ham it up with any of the big name baby or travel gits.
dermot's cedar/rosewood Webber steel string round body - is one of the most memorable guitars I've every played. I can't believe how warm it sounds.
ricky
There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: lw216316 on June 11, 2009, 02:39:34 PM
There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......
I didn't know rabbits climbed trees :humour:
Quote from: Walkerman on June 11, 2009, 02:44:36 PM
I didn't know rabbits climbed trees :humour:
The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Danny, it is disturbing that you had that photo to hand.
Quote from: dependan on June 11, 2009, 03:41:21 PM
The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.
Actually Hawks often give rabbits a free ride up a tree. It's the ride of thier life.
James Goodall and Rockbridge guitars do state that Cedar tops are less susceptible to humidity issues. I won't refute their statements or the science behind them but I can only say that this runs contrary to personal experience. I'm not the only one who has run into splitting and cracking of a cedar topped guitar: there was a series of posts having to do with this issue about a year ago and there were many responses from folks who had cedar topped guitars that developed cracks and had never had the problem on other guitars. One factor that could be at work here: Ovation and ovation-type bowl backed guitars have used cedar tops quite a bit in the past. Some people stated that they thought the splitting and cracking of the cedar could be due to the fact that the non-wood kevlar body of the guitar did not expand or contract with the top in fluctuating humidity condiditons; this might have cause undue stress on the top as a result. I'm not an expert so I will accept Goodall and Rockbridge statements to be factual. There is no debate, however about the fact that it is an excellent tonewood for certain guitars. Of course with any guitar, regardless of wood used, precautions should be taken to protect it from being banged up or dried out. I would not be afraid to get another guitar with a cedar top if it sounded good; I'd just be real careful with it.
Quote from: dependan on June 11, 2009, 03:41:21 PM
The only variety of rabbit I am aware of that does spend time in trees, is the Texas Jackalope. They just jump up into the trees, don't actually climb.
Danny...that brings back childhood memories of many family vacations. Seems like every truckstop restaurant on Rt 66 had jackalope postcards. Those certainly were simplier times. And to my way of thinking, much better times to be a kid growing up in America. But, that's another thread.
Quote from: lw216316 on June 11, 2009, 02:39:34 PM
There's a RABBIT around here somewhere, I just know there is......
Is that a 'Wabbit' or a 'Wat'?
cheers
fongie
Lynn, what you say is true. A good builder can take virtually any wood & make it sound good. Cedar is a good tonewood, when used properly. Some builders swear by it. I have only played cedar topped guitar, having never owned one, so I can't comment on the long term durability of them. I do know they are warm, ding easily, but open up much quicker than Sitka. Still would rather have a spruce top, but the right person can make a sweet sounding cedar topped guitar. They are normally used on smaller sized bodies, but I think, contrary to what some have posted, that spruce would have a quicker, brighter response, due to the higher density of spruce. Warm sounding OO? Would want a little more zip to it, just my opinion. As I said before, J. Taylor played cedar topped Olsons for years, but they were OM sizes, I think. Possibly OOO's. Should someone start a thread on the tonal differences between cedar & spruce? Not me, but I'm sure there are those that would love to debate this! :thumb
Jeff :guitar
Hmm,"So" you want to "talk" Cedar. hey?...and on a OO forum thread,hey( I'm no longer holding my breath,yet who knows :winkin:)
Take a look over on the Guitar Adaptions site.....The Northwood QM-80!!!....YEEEEE-OWZA!!!!
NOW "THAT" IS A FORUM/CEDAR TOPPED BEAUTY THAT WOULD GET ME GOING AGAIN!! :cheers
Call Dave & talk to him about it. He's a swell guy! And maybe buy it, to get it out of your system! :humour: Start the thread about cedar on a OO body or a F-IV & see how many chime in positively. I'm curious. :?
Jeff :guitar
I was just looking at the AGF and look what I found: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155641
The tops don't dent if you take care of them.
Only and opinion but it's mine!
fred
:bgrin:
Quote from: ffinke on June 12, 2009, 11:11:32 PM
I was just looking at the AGF and look what I found: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155641
The tops don't dent if you take care of them.
Only and opinion but it's mine!
fred
:bgrin:
MMMMMMMM,,,,,,,,
ummmm.... did Danny like the cedar toped Webber too?
I loved Ricky's discription of it, he does way better than me at this;
Quotedermot's cedar/rosewood Webber steel string round body - is one of the most memorable guitars I've every played. I can't believe how warm it sounds.
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/cedar%20top.jpg)
It's a 10 year old guitar that has traveled around the world several times, and it's crack free, a only a few tiny dings, this box has been around, taken care of, but not babyed... chucked in the cargo hold evey time, cedar's fine in my experience.
now, for me the question is; would Larrivee build with it?
Okay. I'm getting attached to my parlor walnut. I can't put it down. Flatpicking, fingerstyle, I hug it, smell it,
search it inch by inch with my naked eyes (okay that's because I really need bifocals and don't have one yet).
I expect to play more git and less time here....... I wonder into the Forum and catch up with what's going on...
Then I see dermot's Webber red cedar/rosewood --- even David Webber himself says dermot's guitar is a "freak of nature."
Thanks to this Forum and this Forum IV discussion (special mention 'bltprf502' Rich, Zohn),
I am positively dreaming about a Webber. As far as "custom built guitars" go, this may be one of the best ones out there,
for a third or fourth of the cost of the MacPhersons, Bourgeois, and other boutique gits. Scalloped/radiused bracing, Yummy!
So thanks for the picture dermot - I'd forgotten that yours is a cutaway - and do I see a delicious cocobolo binding - whatever
that red binding is.
As Zohn puts it, we are in the golden era of acoustic guitars where so many great luthiers are walking this earth
during our lifetime. It's such a privilege to actually be speaking to the creator's of these fine musical instruments.
dermot's git definitely has got Mojo and I'm sure lots of stories to tell - if it could speak... I already know it can sing!
ricky
Quote from: dermot on June 13, 2009, 01:01:25 AM
ummmm.... did Danny like the cedar topped Webber too?
d. you know I enjoyed using your guitar. It was very warm and clear. A nice finger style guitar similar to the LSV-11 only it had more resonance and sustain. The build was a 10 out of 10 from what I remember.
I think it was a 14 fret standard scale wasn't it?
Another Cedar top checking in....this one is a Takamine that I rescued from our local craigslist. Looks like this poor cedar/rosewood was used for rock and roll guitar and the cedar has the scars to prove it...fFrom this angle you cannot even see some of the pick marks left where a pick guard would be....yes, cedar is soft.....
The other unusual feature of this guitar is the neck...1 7/8" nut and the neck carve feels like a big round baseball bat. I love the neck!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/3610790146_5ed6e6ba7f_b.jpg)
Quote from: dependan on June 13, 2009, 06:33:25 AM
d. you know I enjoyed using your guitar. It was very warm and clear. A nice finger style guitar similar to the LSV-11 only it had more resonance and sustain. The build was a 10 out of 10 from what I remember.
I think it was a 14 fret standard scale wasn't it?
yup to both... and two things i would change if ordered today ;-)
i have a hard time discribing tone tho... and you and Ricky have a gift for explaining & defining the indefinable ;-)
the best i can say is;
1) if a cedar topped 00 is under discussion for FVI, get thee to a guitar store and try a small body'd cedar topped git against a spruce one and let your ears decide
2) if my Webber is any thing to go by.. after 10 years and alot of air miles it's fine, not mint, but fine.... i would not worry about a Larrivee lasting a lifetime in any case.. it would be there a century after i'm gone....
i'm only playing 30 min a day to give my left hand a rest these days, and most of that time is on the OM19, working on El Mcmeen's "Star of the County Down Waltz" in CGDGAD.. so i spend an hour running the tune in my head and studying the tab, and make the most of the 30 min with strings.. the OM sounds beyond awesome in low C (with a .60 on the bottom)
The Webber is the second choice these days (but that's subject to change at my whim tho)
d.
I had a solid-cedar topped Yamaki 12-string for over 30 years and sold it last summer. The cedar WAS softer and showed impacts quite quickly. But it seemed to hold up fine otherwise. Laminated rosewood back, probably sides, too. Never really played it.
Oh yeah, a 12-string slothead, of all things:
[attachment deleted by admin]
The best guitar I've ever heard, was an Olson SJ with Cedar and Indian Rosewood, played by Brian Doerksen. It is the same model Phil Keaggy and James Taylor use as well.Olson, Kevin Ryan and Bill Wise of Charis guitars use Ceder extensively with Indian, Madi, and Braz. rosewoods.
I personally would love to own a Taylor 514 with Cedar and Hog, and the Cedar/Indian Walden I own, is my personal favourite to gig with.
Nothing dents if you take care of it. My only point about that is it will dent even if your nail hits it, it's that soft. Has a nice sound when used right, but I don't know how Larrivee will do cedar, as far as the sound of it. Want to chance it? I just think spruce wpuld be a better sounding top over a cedar one on a OO size. Or a HOG top. They've been used many times by Martin on what was considered a OO size. Sorry for saying it again, but it's true. Has someone started a thread on cedar vs. spruce? That would be a good place to debate this, with the end results being posted here. Everyone doesn't want cedar & don't think Larrivee would go for it as an option. Someone want to send a smoke signal to them & see what their response is? Then the discussion about it as an option can continue seriously. I would wait for an all HOG OO with the specs listed, being one special guitar. Someone have a Larrivee cedar topped guitar that they can post a pic of? And as far as taking care of a guitar, all should be done so with the same care. Take care of your guitars & they will always be nice & fresh looking. And they'll take care of you! Cedar is just needs extra special care.
And as far as a Webber, nice guitars with a price that fits the builder. Don't think you can really compare a Webber to a Larrivee as far as cost benefits. Like comparing a Larrivee to a Collings or SCCG. Some will hold up, but most won't, for the money. Special guitars all handmade by special builders.
Jeff :guitar
I'm with ya Jeff, i have my cedar fix already, what i'm looking for is short scale, cutaway & 1 & 13/16 -or- 1 & 7/8.... I was truly impressed with the two FIII's i tried, one spruce/mahog, and one spruce/irw... and both wonderful
On paper the LSV11 is a great fit for me, or another custom from a local builder with similar spec's, but i am following along with FVI as it might turn out to have spec's i would buy into.. and like i said the FIII's are pretty amazing guitars.... my expactations were exceeded.. i have confidence in John Larrivee Jr's ablity to bring the best out of a mass order on a spec sheet, and turn that into a musical tool that will last a life time, and keep ya smiling.. really... that is why i'm following along
d.
Sheeesh!!! :humour:
12 pages in two weeks,and NO forum OO in sight!!!
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 13, 2009, 02:36:50 PM
Nothing dents if you take care of it. My only point about that is it will dent even if your nail hits it, it's that soft. Has a nice sound when used right, but I don't know how Larrivee will do cedar, as far as the sound of it. Want to chance it? I just think spruce wpuld be a better sounding top over a cedar one on a OO size. Or a HOG top. They've been used many times by Martin on what was considered a OO size. Sorry for saying it again, but it's true. Has someone started a thread on cedar vs. spruce? That would be a good place to debate this, with the end results being posted here. Everyone doesn't want cedar & don't think Larrivee would go for it as an option. Someone want to send a smoke signal to them & see what their response is? Then the discussion about it as an option can continue seriously. I would wait for an all HOG OO with the specs listed, being one special guitar. Someone have a Larrivee cedar topped guitar that they can post a pic of? And as far as taking care of a guitar, all should be done so with the same care. Take care of your guitars & they will always be nice & fresh looking. And they'll take care of you! Cedar is just needs extra special care.
And as far as a Webber, nice guitars with a price that fits the builder. Don't think you can really compare a Webber to a Larrivee as far as cost benefits. Like comparing a Larrivee to a Collings or SCCG. Some will hold up, but most won't, for the money. Special guitars all handmade by special builders.
Jeff :guitar
I'm with you Jeff, I think 'Hog' or 'Spruce' are my choice :thumb
cheers
fongie
Magicman, I think the longer that goes into the planning, the better the results & our "asking" will be. I think we lucked out on the F-III planning, thanks to someones quickly put together ideas, such as Danny's idea of the IS, others, who know who they are, with their input also. Quickly put together, quickly built (1 & 1/2 months!). If we take our time on this one, get a general mutual consensus on all specs, I think it will be a well thought out guitar that might result in a "new" Larrivee guitar being offered, as the LS is now. Maybe they'll give us a good deal based on the outcome of the F-III, them profiting twice from reintroducing the LS into a series. Maybe we'll be appreciated for what we did for them, since we sure are for what was done for us, & expressed it many times! :humour:
I, too, have faith in the Larrivee clan for bringing dreams on paper into fruition as an actual guitar. We all learned a lesson from the F-III build. Have 250 (?) pics saved on my pc of the build, which I check out every now & then. Pretty cool stuff. And having Jim Holler didn't hurt either. I think he's still recovering from that one, having taken on alot on & hopefully profiting enough to make it worth it. Just wish I had enough money to keep my future plans going, as I plan on getting a Martin OOO-15s if this thing doesn't happen. I still have to sell my Baden, being a great guitar but have enough of those. I want something that will fill a certain need I have, being the perfect blues box. My F-III IS/HOG really meets these needs, but want to be just like my hero, Joseph, & get the ultimate HOG machine! :beer
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 13, 2009, 06:47:00 PM
Magicman, I think the longer that goes into the planning, the better the results & our "asking" will be. I think we lucked out on the F-III planning, thanks to someones quickly put together ideas, such as Danny's idea of the IS, others, who know who they are, with their input also. Quickly put together, quickly built (1 & 1/2 months!). If we take our time on this one, get a general mutual consensus on all specs, I think it will be a well thought out guitar that might result in a "new" Larrivee guitar being offered, as the LS is now. Maybe they'll give us a good deal based on the outcome of the F-III, them profiting twice from reintroducing the LS into a series. Maybe we'll be appreciated for what we did for them, since we sure are for what was done for us, & expressed it many times! :humour:
I, too, have faith in the Larrivee clan for bringing dreams on paper into fruition as an actual guitar. We all learned a lesson from the F-III build. Have 250 (?) pics saved on my pc of the build, which I check out every now & then. Pretty cool stuff. And having Jim Holler didn't hurt either. I think he's still recovering from that one, having taken on alot on & hopefully profiting enough to make it worth it. Just wish I had enough money to keep my future plans going, as I plan on getting a Martin OOO-15s if this thing doesn't happen. I still have to sell my Baden, being a great guitar but have enough of those. I want something that will fill a certain need I have, being the perfect blues box. My F-III IS/HOG really meets these needs, but want to be just like my hero, Joseph, & get the ultimate HOG machine! :beer
Jeff :guitar
I'm thinking of culling down my collection to just 4 and have this FIV as my 5th, last, ultimate and perfect guitar. Jeff, so true, careful thoughts and planning is so important to make this dream machine come true.
cheers
fongie
Fongie, let me know about the Larrivee catalog?
Jeff :guitar
Quote from: BluesMan1 on June 13, 2009, 07:55:12 PM
Fongie, let me know about the Larrivee catalog?
Jeff :guitar
Hey Jeff, can you help me out here? I've got this mind block, do you think I can find the post on the catalog? Where did we post? Thanks
cheers
fongie
Yes,I admit the "Blue one" is right on....as usual! :winkin:
Yet,I cannot help thinking that business must be good at Larrivee,for this kind of absence,with this interest level....In my local neck of the woods,someone would have been on this already.The economy "is" that lousey around here!
Cash is tight!....I'm gonna have to see a pretty special git(multi options,and a fair price) to jump on that band wagon.....Zohn to the rescue,I'd expect :winkin:
From Larrivee's site ten years ago;
QuoteThe Larrivee "OO" style body guitars were originally created for Joan Baez. At first glance, this guitar looks like it would produce a 'smaller' sound because of it's size, but with it's 12 frets to the body it packs a sound comparable to much larger guitars
back then it was only offered in 05/09/10/72 series.... no 03's
So would this be the first time an 00-03 has been done?
d.
If the F-IV gets off the ground and is a 12-fret 00, I'll likely be in for the all-hog version.
Now, that wasn't so hard...
Quote from: prof_stack on June 14, 2009, 01:04:35 AM
If the F-IV gets off the ground and is a 12-fret 00, I'll likely be in for the all-hog version.
Now, that wasn't so hard...
:+1:
cheers
fongie
Quote from: magictwanger on June 13, 2009, 09:16:21 PM
Cash is tight!....I'm gonna have to see a pretty special git(multi options,and a fair price) to jump on that band wagon.....Zohn to the rescue,I'd expect :winkin:
Hey Mark, ever so kind aren't you? - thanx to this thread though, I finally saw the light and realized I'm officially out of the Forum-guitar-equation. I'm rather saving for the guitars I really want instead. I'm watching proceedings with great interest though - this could end up in a great guitar yet.
In all honesty Zohn,I picked up on your sentiment a while ago.No problemo from me,and I usually take your lead anyway....Look what you influenced me into,last Winter. :smile:
In my case it is really/honestly a BIG "if"....I'd hope everyone gets what they'd like,but I am going to "need" a git(as a new forum model OO) that I know would match your exquisite standards.
I'd expect that would be a bit over what we(and myself) would want to pay....so it is still a mystery....
Who doesn't like a good mystery anyway. :winkin:
very clear that OO 12-fret slothead may very well be the Forum IV
"exquisite appointments" more than 2,000 - Oxnard built
"lowly 03 series" sub-1700 - Vancouver built
There's only 1 dealer known to order as few as 5-10 units from either factory locations.
If the state of economy is better than what we're in now, we would be ordering by now.
Except for scalloped bracing, the factories will do anything for
(1) passion & interest and (2) $$$$$
not always in that order.
ricky
Thats a good thought ricky, but I will say that I believe that Jean will not do anything the customer wants regardless of the qty and $$s involved. He still puts his name on it, and he has very strong feelings about what does or does not make a good guitar. Listen to a couple of interviews with him, and you can tell that the idea of doing more hi-end expensive and custom instruments has been brought up many times, and he's made it clear that his goal of hi-quality at affordable prices is what he has chained his artistic soul to - to all of our benefit - not that it cannot change in the future, but I think his integrity of purpose will only stretch so far -
Tad
Quote from: tadol on June 14, 2009, 09:15:27 PMhe's made it clear that his goal of hi-quality at affordable prices is what he has chained his artistic soul to - to all of our benefit - not that it cannot change in the future, but I think his integrity of purpose will only stretch so far -
Tad, I guess 'exquisite' will have to be limited to 09 or 10 appointments and perhaps "AAA" grade woods or some exotic woods.
Before I bought my OO-09, I was considering a OO-10 Custom in FS-section here listed at $2500, which I think went for 2300. The only thing that I could see in the "custom" was the fancy 'woman dancing' inlay on the headstock and koa binding. The rest was basically the same as the 09.
ricky
Hey ricky - I probably didn't make myself as clear as I should have - I think Jean would happily let Wendy or whoever do custom inlays, change body bindings, headstock overlays, different woods, whatever - I think they understand that there are a variety of tastes, and none of those really affect the basic guitar. But if you think that for enough money he'll start building ladder braced, or scalloping braces, or modifying top thickness to a customers spec, well, I wouldn't hold your breath. He's built alot of guitars, and found what works and sounds right to him, and I don't think that a little more money is going to change that. I'm sure that there are a few people who could convince him to give something new a try, and he is still an outstanding craftsman who could very possibly get intrigued with an interesting build technique or style that he finds in his travels. But a customer waving money at him - I just don't think so - but that's just my opinion based on reading and hearing him speak, not speaking to him myself, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from offering them alot of money if that's what they want to do -
Tad
I agree with you Tad. I've come to accept that Larrivee would not alter his tried n true formula for guitar building. That's why I further qualified the adjective to mean 09-10 specs.
Exquisite = boutique gits (or small shop luthiers that do modified bracing) at 3,500 & up.
ricky
As of yesterday I am out of the "I'm in" category on the F-IV. First things first...and Bonnie's health is number one.
Here's a thought...
A couple of times Larrivee has made guitars from wood provided by the 12th Fret. That opens the door for a non-standard wood if the FIV team is willing to procure the wood sets (or back/side sets), and Larrivee would agree to work the wood. I'm not sure how warranty would be handled?
Danny... take care of Bonnie. Our thoughts will be with you.
Quote from: dependan on June 16, 2009, 07:24:39 AM
As of yesterday I am out of the "I'm in" category on the F-IV. First things first...and Bonnie's health is number one.
Whenever I remember you and Bonnie, I'll be praying for you both especially regarding this health concern. ricky
Quote from: rpm60912 on June 17, 2009, 02:33:07 AM
Whenever I remember you and Bonnie, I'll be praying for you both especially regarding this health concern. ricky
I missed that one, but you can bet that I'm "in on prayers" too Danny. Please keep us informed will you?
Quote from: Zohn on June 17, 2009, 05:34:06 AM
I missed that one, but you can bet that I'm "in on prayers" too Danny. Please keep us informed will you?
Zohn, incase you missed Dan's thread on this subject, go to 'Non guitar discussion' under 'Things that happens in 3'
cheers
fongie
A friendly BUMP to see if F-IV is still on anyone's radar. An 00-03MT sounds about right to me.
Quote from: prof_stack on June 23, 2009, 02:01:59 PM
A friendly BUMP to see if F-IV is still on anyone's radar. An 00-03MT sounds about right to me.
very much. this MT would be my order with a paddle headstock.
pending my wife making the actual purchase for me... timing issue.
ricky
I'd love to see a OO Larrivee, though I'd go for standard headstock with 14 frets to the body, gloss finish, 1 3/4" nut width, 24.9" scale length, rosewood back & sides, with engleman top.
Has Larrivee ever made any OO models?
Yes, they've made 00s before...I think they have usually been 12 fretters though...not sure I've ever seem a 14 fret 00...
Definately! But still doin my search for a OO, incase FIV don't go ahead
My Specs Are :
- OO
- Hog top
- 12 fret
- Slothead
- Tortoise PG
- Herringbone
- :bgr :bgr :bgrin:in:in:
cheers
fongie
Quote from: fongie on June 23, 2009, 07:09:04 PM
Definately! But still doin my search for a OO, incase FIV don't go ahead
My Specs Are :
- OO
- Hog top
- 12 fret
- Slothead
- Tortoise PG
- Herringbone
- :bgr :bgr :bgrin:in:in:
cheers
fongie
they've made those before
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=19497.0
My spartan specs Are :
- OO
- Hog top / sides / back
- 12 fret
- Paddlehead (to keep the cost down)
- No pickguard
- Herringbone rosette
- 03 satin finish
Quote from: Denis on June 23, 2009, 10:35:46 PM
they've made those before
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=19497.0
Oh well, my search will continue.......Still dreamin', still hopin', no alteration on the specs
cheers
fongie
Quote from: Zohn on June 07, 2009, 12:02:53 PM
I remember JCL saying that the Traditional models are made with traditional aesthetics like the herringbone trim, Pyramid bridge, angled bone nut, slot head, volute dart, and fretboard inlays. He made it clear though that he specifically retained the parabolic bracing to retain the unique Larrivee sound. My point is I don't think there's any way that they would scallop and thus alter the very attribute they're famous for nl. the even balance. Just my opinion though. They might be game to brace the tops lightly for a better response with finger style in mind.
This is going to be the crux of the issue in IMHO. While I have not read thru this entire post, personally I'd be looking for a guitar braced more lightly than the standard Larrivee line up. All, the other specs thrown around are interesting, but if the guitar is not a tonal variation from the standard line up, it might be a tougher sell, especially if it approaches the $2K range. I feel the beauty of the Forum III was that fact that you got a guitar with some unique features priced like an OM-03 :winkin:
Nonetheless it will be fun to follow the progress of this discussion.
~ Ray ~