Hey Everyone

Very new to recording here and looking to make my first purchase. Can a condensor mic be patched right into your line in on a computer audio card or do  I need a preamp first.   (the preamp will be coming no matter what)  ..but I just wanted to get started.

Thanks

Assuming this is a built in sound card (not an external USB or Firewire type with phantom power) no. A condensor mic requires a power (phantom) source.

Quote from: ronmac on March 28, 2006, 08:08:19 PM
Assuming this is a built in sound card (not an external USB or Firewire type with phantom power) no. A condensor mic requires a power (phantom) source.

What if the mic has batteries?  Don't most condensor mics have a space for them.  If so, do I still ned the amp?

Thanks

What model mic?

Quote from: ronmac on March 28, 2006, 08:15:11 PM
What model mic?

Hey Ron

No specific model in mind although i just watched a video on Acoustic Player Mag and the condenser mic they showed - Audio Technica Atr-55 -  takes batteries.

Cheers

Whether or not it needs phantom power or has its own batteries, you need a pre-amp to bring it up to line level. If you want to go the cheap route and not get a pre and just plug into the cheap mic pre in yoursound card, I would just get a cheap dynamic mic from the Shack. Cause anything you run through those cheap pres on non-recording specific cards is gonna sound like poo anyway. You need a dedicated sound card and a mic pre. If you can't afford that all at once, save up. also, those condensors with the batteries in them are usually bottom of the line. Get a pre with 48v and a decent condensor.

I've been looking at the Samson CO1U which is an USB condenser mic... It gets its power through the USB cable. No mic preamp needed.

http://www.music123.com/Samson-CO1U-USB-Studio-Condenser-Microphone-i155787.music

Most of the reviews on Amazon are favorable. Although there seems to be problems with the drivers, mostly with MacOS.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000AP1RE8/102-2836414-4078507

BTW, would anyone know what "DAW app" stands for?

DAW app is Digital Audio Workstation Application.

MXL has a recording package where you get a 990 and 991 for $100.  These are fantastic mics for the money.  Combine that with a Behringer UB-802 mixer and you have a very useable sound for about $150.
Here is a recording I did of my new OM-50.  Its a song I have started working on.  I need to polish it up but wanted to record something.  Levels are flat with just a touch of reverb.
http://web.mac.com/jwieties/iWeb/Site/Podcast/C169D525-63A2-42AD-B8BA-AD6B3D899834.html

-josh

Quote from: Gemnoc on March 28, 2006, 11:31:28 PM
I've been looking at the Samson CO1U which is an USB condenser mic... It gets its power through the USB cable. No mic preamp needed.

http://www.music123.com/Samson-CO1U-USB-Studio-Condenser-Microphone-i155787.music

Most of the reviews on Amazon are favorable. Although there seems to be problems with the drivers, mostly with MacOS.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B000AP1RE8/102-2836414-4078507

BTW, would anyone know what "DAW app" stands for?

Most of the reviews are favorable because there's no frame of reference from the reviewers.  That Samson mic is at the low end of the low end.  It's major selling point is the USB connectivity.  However, if you use one, you cannot use a second one (in another USB port) to record in stereo.  Hardly any room for expansion.  Best bet, even on a limited budget, is to get a two channel preamp or firewire/USB recording interface, and one or two inexpensive condenser mics.

I was in a similar situation about a year ago trying to figure out a reasonably priced but quality sound solution for recording to my computer.  And I'll preface everything by saying that I am a total recording newbie and by no means an expert on gear  -_-  I just did a lot of research and asked around to people with more knowledge.

So, I ended up with a Studio Projects B1 condensor mic, PreSonus TubePre and M-Audio Audiophile USB interface.  This setup works remarkably well for me and gives me clear, wide range recordings which are also noise free.

The B1 is highly rated and very reasonable (compared to high end mics) at around $100.  The TubePre is also very nice (with a 12Ax7 tube) for warming up the signal and also right around $100 (I think Behringer makes a similar unit which is about $60 but no tube).  The USB interface is something you'd have a lot of choices to pick from....I ended up with the Audiophile USB because it had MIDI in/out which I wanted for my keyboard and it was around $130.

Good luck in your search!

So,  Mic and Pre-amp is the way to go. Now I have also heard  of a "DI Box"  what is that?  How does it fit into this equation?

In the larger plan I want to get a simple small Amp to hear my self.  Where does that fit into this.  There has got to be a good website somewhere with simple explanations and pics to straighten this newbie out.

Cheers

A DI box is a small pre-amp in a box which a guitar with pickup and 1/4inch connector would plug into to get:

1: signal boost
2. tone, volume,  and eq adjustments (besides what might already be on the guitar)
3. convert to balanced output (usually).

Pretty much necessary for a passive pickup unless you have a very short cable run to the amp, but many people use them in addtion to active pickups for various reasons.

I will typically use an acoustic with no pickup into a condensor mic into a small preamp/mixer. The mixer into both my PC's soundcard and into a set of headphones.

I need to get an upgraded soundcard or one of the USB connections as:  mixer-->soundcard isn't the best quality sound.

Quote from: Randy_R on March 29, 2006, 07:20:12 PM
A DI box is a small pre-amp in a box which a guitar with pickup and 1/4inch connector would plug into to get:

1: signal boost
2. tone, volume,  and eq adjustments (besides what might already be on the guitar)
3. convert to balanced output (usually).

Pretty much necessary for a passive pickup unless you have a very short cable run to the amp, but many people use them in addtion to active pickups for various reasons.

Hey Randy

So it's a type of pre-amp?  When I look at the K&K preamps..are they doing as much as a DI box...and more?  Is the DI box a smaller version of  these.?

Chris

I paired my Apex condensor mic up with a Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 Preamp. The MIC200 has built in phantom power and has some interesting modelling as well.

http://www.behringer.com/MIC200/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 29, 2006, 07:24:48 PM
Hey Randy

So it's a type of pre-amp?  When I look at the K&K preamps..are they doing as much as a DI box...and more?  Is the DI box a smaller version of  these.?

Chris

external vs internal

Actually, makes me think that the next pickup I get is going to be passive, with a belt DI. Why put electronics in the guitar if you're going to use an external DI anyway????

If your just looking for something to get you started recording go with a cheap dynaimic mic.

I bought a Phillips that comes with a cord and an adapter plug that went right into my Creative Live sound card.  I went to a music store a bought a little floor standing boom mic stand and clip.  Have under $50. in the whole thing.  Got the mic a WalMart for $9.99.
Dowloaded Audacity for free to do the recording.

Take a listen.

Windows
(http://steve.ps8318.com/mymusic/Windows3_28_06.mp3.mp3)

Quote from: SteveK on March 29, 2006, 09:05:12 PM
If your just looking for something to get you started recording go with a cheap dynaimic mic.

I bought a Phillips that comes with a cord and an adapter plug that went right into my Creative Live sound card.  I went to a music store a bought a little floor standing boom mic stand and clip.  Have under $50. in the whole thing.  Got the mic a WalMart for $9.99.
Dowloaded Audacity for free to do the recording.

Take a listen.

Wheels
(http://steve.ps8318.com/mymusic/Windows3_28_06.mp3.mp3)

Good work Steve!  Appreciate the posting of the recording.   Can anyone post a recording of a low end condensor mic/pre-amp onto a computer?  I'd love to be able to compare.

Chris

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 29, 2006, 09:12:03 PM
Good work Steve!  Appreciate the posting of the recording.   Can anyone post a recording of a low end condensor mic/pre-amp onto a computer?  I'd love to be able to compare.

Chris

The sound clip I did of my L-09CE is into a low end condenser mic ($39 on ebay Superlux) into a low-end mixer into the sound card of my PC using free Audacity.

http://randyrick.us/guitars/L09CE.htm

Quote from: Randy_R on March 29, 2006, 11:01:52 PM
The sound clip I did of my L-09CE is into a low end condenser mic ($39 on ebay Superlux) into a low-end mixer into the sound card of my PC using free Audacity.

http://randyrick.us/guitars/L09CE.htm

Awesome Randy..in your opinion where does all the background hiss come from and what would you do to take it up a level. Although I am a beginner player...i am a freak about quality sound.

Thanks.. Chris

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 29, 2006, 07:24:48 PM
Hey Randy

So it's a type of pre-amp?  When I look at the K&K preamps..are they doing as much as a DI box...and more?  Is the DI box a smaller version of  these.?

Chris

Although some (many actually) DI boxes can boost a signal, none of them boost enough to handle a microphone, which needs alot of gain.  For recording, you need a microphone (or two), a preamp (it will boost the signal enough - that's what it is designed to do), an AD converter (translates analog signals to digital) and a computer with appropraite software.  You also need a DA converter (translates digital back to analog) and a power amp and speakers (called reference monitors) to hear what you recorded.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 29, 2006, 11:10:38 PM
Awesome Randy..in your opinion where does all the background hiss come from and what would you do to take it up a level. Although I am a beginner player...i am a freak about quality sound.

Thanks.. Chris

I know.  :UND> Which is probably why I don't use this setup more.. My presumption of the source of the hiss is the low-end audio card in my laptop, but am not 100% sure. Which is why I'll buy a USB mixer some time soon.

Quote from: sdelsolray on March 30, 2006, 01:46:41 AM
Although some (many actually) DI boxes can boost a signal, none of them boost enough to handle a microphone, which needs alot of gain.  For recording, you need a microphone (or two), a preamp (it will boost the signal enough - that's what it is designed to do), an AD converter (translates analog signals to digital) and a computer with appropraite software.  You also need a DA converter (translates digital back to analog) and a power amp and speakers (called reference monitors) to hear what you recorded.

OK, so I am getting familiar with the need for a preamp..especially when using a condensor mic (phantom power)..but now you've mentioned this AD convertor thingy...WHAT the HECK is that?  Never head of a 2nd device between a preamp and computer. Can you send me a URL to one so I can see it.  Why do many preamps have a USB port for your computer of a AD convertor box is needed?

Thanks

Hey Crunchy Wacko, (what does that mean anyway??)

Have you read this article?

Home Recording Demystified from APM
(http://www.acousticplayermagazine.com/apm001/techtalk001/homerecord1_001.html)

If the preamp has a usb output the AD converter is included.

The analog signal has to be converted to digital. This is what your soundcard is for. And yes there are different levels of converters, which is why no serious "home recording engineer" would use the cheap stock onboard audio cards or a sound blaster. Dedicated audio cards start out a reasonable prices and are easy to install.
Also USB is not the ideal connection for recording. USB 1.1 is WAY to slow, latency city blah. Also if you use a USB device that has it's own preamp, realize that all that power will have to be drawn from your usb connection. Here's a review of a popular usb audio interface: http://www.mojopie.com/mobilepre.html
Do yourself a favor and by a mic pre and a seperate dedicated sound card. PCI or at least firewire. I'm not sure why so many recording newbies gravitate toward the usb, maybe cause it seems easy just plug it in and go. But trust me you'll find the art of recording many times more complicated than installing a PCI card.

o yeh AD converter translates to; Analog to Digital converter

homerecording.com is a useful place for gaining recording knowledge. Check out the forums, they are helpful. and just to warn you they may not be as ummmm ...  "civilized" over there.

Quote from: SteveK on March 30, 2006, 06:38:02 PM
Hey Crunchy Wacko, (what does that mean anyway??)

Have you read this article?

Home Recording Demystified from APM
(http://www.acousticplayermagazine.com/apm001/techtalk001/homerecord1_001.html)

Hi

Re: my name...i had no idea of a unique name when I signed up so I went to a website with a name convertor on it...put in my first/last name and it generated Crunchy Wacko...go figure.

Yes, i watched all 3 videos..don't remember seeing anything about a AD box but some great info on mics - preamps and recording SW.

Cheers

Quote from: jeremy3220 on March 30, 2006, 07:06:17 PM
The analog signal has to be converted to digital. This is what your soundcard is for. And yes there are different levels of converters, which is why no serious "home recording engineer" would use the cheap stock onboard audio cards or a sound blaster. Dedicated audio cards start out a reasonable prices and are easy to install.
Also USB is not the ideal connection for recording. USB 1.1 is WAY to slow, latency city blah. Also if you use a USB device that has it's own preamp, realize that all that power will have to be drawn from your usb connection. Here's a review of a popular usb audio interface: http://www.mojopie.com/mobilepre.html
Do yourself a favor and by a mic pre and a seperate dedicated sound card. PCI or at least firewire. I'm not sure why so many recording newbies gravitate toward the usb, maybe cause it seems easy just plug it in and go. But trust me you'll find the art of recording many times more complicated than installing a PCI card.

o yeh AD converter translates to; Analog to Digital converter

homerecording.com is a useful place for gaining recording knowledge. Check out the forums, they are helpful. and just to warn you they may not be as ummmm ...  "civilized" over there.

Thanks for all the info!  Is this a good eg of a MIC-PRE 

http://www.behringer.com/MIC200/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Does it conenct to a PCI card via line in?

Now what happens though when I also want to record via my intermal pickup.?  I want to be sure to get a box that will do both pickup and mic...call it future-proofing. What options to i have?

This is where an online chat forum would be awesome.

I'm not familiar with that one, but the general rule is to stay away from cheap tubes. Those modeling features are probably junk too.
M-Audio makes some decent low end pres, the Audio Buddy is the cheapest and the DMP3 is a step up. The Studio Projects VTB-1 is a tube blend pre, but I thought it was decent. It's only one channel though. These pres also have 1/4" inputs so yes you can plug your guitar/pedals into it.

Dedicated sound cards should have balanced inputs. So you just run a balanced cable from the pre to the sound card. Pay attention to whether you need a TRS(1/4") or XLR(mic style) cable though.

If you were to ask this stuff over at the home recording forum you would get alot of responses, btw.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 30, 2006, 07:24:49 PM

Now what happens though when I also want to record via my intermal pickup.? I want to be sure to get a box that will do both pickup and mic...call it future-proofing. What options to i have?

Crunchy - I really think you should take a look at the PreSonus TubePre that I mentioned earlier.  I ended up getting this over other choices because of its functionality, price and good reviews.  It should be able to provide you with the different recording options you've stated that you need, i.e., direct and mic'd.

Here is an in-depth review of it and you can find many more reviews simply by googling "review presonus tubepre":
http://www.sonicstate.com/articles/article.cfm?id=72

Hope this helps  -_-

Hey Everyone

Stopped in at 12th Fret in Toronto to get some advice and although they aren't recording specialists they did suggest I look at these 2 devices
http://line6.com/toneport/overview.html          $259 Canadian..  seems to do all i need it to do.. love the ability to hook up some powered
speakers and use both by guitar pickup and mic at same time. I questioned them on the USB hookup because I had heard some bad stories but they said this one was rock solid as long as your computer is up to the task.

http://www.apexelectronics.com/index.php?tmp=4&id=76       ..nice condensor mic...  $80 Canadian.

Any thoughts on the HW above.

Also asked to have a go on their LSV-11...but i had just missed it..it walked out the door a few minutes ealer. More to come though!

Cheers..chris

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on March 30, 2006, 06:27:37 PM
OK, so I am getting familiar with the need for a preamp..especially when using a condensor mic (phantom power)..but now you've mentioned this AD convertor thingy...WHAT the HECK is that?  Never head of a 2nd device between a preamp and computer. Can you send me a URL to one so I can see it.  Why do many preamps have a USB port for your computer of a AD convertor box is needed?

Thanks

Crunchy,

Sorry to confuse you.  You're wanting to create a home recording setup.  Here's what I said you need in my prior post:

For recording, you need a microphone (or two), a preamp (it will boost the signal enough - that's what it is designed to do), an AD converter (translates analog signals to digital) and a computer with appropraite software.  You also need a DA converter (translates digital back to analog) and a power amp and speakers (called reference monitors) to hear what you recorded.

There are products out there that combine some of these functions into one unit.  Take, for example, the Digidesign MBox2:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MBox2/

It includes 2 mic preamps, AD converters, DA converters and the recording/editing software, as in one product.

There are numerous similar products around:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FireBox/
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/US122/

There are also computer soundcards that are designed for audio which often contain most or all these functions too.

Quote from: sdelsolray on April 01, 2006, 10:50:16 AM
Crunchy,

Sorry to confuse you.  You're wanting to create a home recording setup.  Here's what I said you need in my prior post:

For recording, you need a microphone (or two), a preamp (it will boost the signal enough - that's what it is designed to do), an AD converter (translates analog signals to digital) and a computer with appropraite software.  You also need a DA converter (translates digital back to analog) and a power amp and speakers (called reference monitors) to hear what you recorded.

There are products out there that combine some of these functions into one unit.  Take, for example, the Digidesign MBox2:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MBox2/

It includes 2 mic preamps, AD converters, DA converters and the recording/editing software, as in one product.

There are numerous similar products around:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/FireBox/
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/US122/

There are also computer soundcards that are designed for audio which often contain most or all these functions too.

Hi

Thanks for all the info.  The LINE 6 seems to do all that (minus the AMP part because it does say i need a pair of powered speakers)

But to just record via condensor mic to computer the specs just show the LINE 6 Toneport in the middle. It must be doing all the analog to Digital conversion. The website for it has a diagram of hookups and there are no other devices other than the Toneport. Am i missing something.?

Thanks

I'd stay away from the Line 6 stuff for recording an acoustic guitar.  The product you listed is not quite what you need.

Hey Wacko,

I went to my favorite music store last night and asked about home recording and came out confused. :UND>

According to the tech guy there, a minimal set-up providing acceptable results would cost 700$CAN (not including the 15% taxes!). Ouch! He told me a good condenser mic was 300$, preamp 200$, basic sound card 125$, and don't forget a good mic stand, don't want to drop that mic. (US readers just divide by 1.2 for USD)

He even said that for 100$, it was better to buy a dynamic mic rather than a condenser.

I wouldn't mind spending that kind of money, if I knew that I would keep at it. I sometimes shift my interests very quickly. :rolleyes:

A $1,000 initial budget for a basic home recording setup in probably a minimum amount.  Some folks get by with less but they do this by not building the basic setup completely.  A frequent "cost cutting" step is to not buy reference monitors, choosing instead to use a home stereo or simple headphones for monitoring.  Bad move.  To many in the know, the monitoring chain is the most important part of any studio because it allows you to hear what is being recorded, mixed, etc.

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 01, 2006, 01:17:52 PM
Hey Wacko,

I went to my favorite music store last night and asked about home recording and came out confused. :UND>

According to the tech guy there, a minimal set-up providing acceptable results would cost 700$CAN (not including the 15% taxes!). Ouch! He told me a good condenser mic was 300$, preamp 200$, basic sound card 125$, and don't forget a good mic stand, don't want to drop that mic. (US readers just divide by 1.2 for USD)

He even said that for 100$, it was better to buy a dynamic mic rather than a condenser.

I wouldn't mind spending that kind of money, if I knew that I would keep at it. I sometimes shift my interests very quickly. :rolleyes:

Don't listen to salespeople. This kind of elitist recording snob stuff alway makes me mad. You don't need to purchase the finest equipment right off the bat to get "acceptable results". That's BS. It is all subjective anyway. My advice is to start small and affordable and upgrade your equipment as you go.

Six years ago, I started with a Radio Shack $20 microphone plugged into a laptop computer and a free four track recording program. Were the results acceptable? Not by my standards today! But I learned a lot about recording! Slowly I improved my system. I upgraded the mic immediately (Apex dynamic) and purchased a M-Audio Audiophile sound card. Then a mixer, then better software (Sonar), then a condensor mic (Apex 425) and a tube preamp (Behringer MIC200).

So your tech guy says it is better to buy a dynamic for $100 rather than a $100 (cheap) condensor mic? Well listen to this recording:

http://www2.mtroyal.ca/~drathbun/MP3/tilltherewasyou.mp3

The vocal (my wife... she sang for free), the classical guitar lead (LaPatrie Etude $300 elcrapo deluxo), the acoustic rhythm track (Larrivee L05 hmm... okay, kinda acceptable) and the percussion track (me slapping a $0.99 box) was recorded by an Apex 425 condensor (OMG!! $100 POS!) into a Behringer Tube Preamp (ooh... ick... cheapo crap) into an Alto mixer ($125 POS!) into Sonar 4 Studio (anything less than Logic is crap). The bass was run direct into the Behringer.

Maybe it isn't "professional" quality, but it is certainly "acceptable" for my purposes.

LOL, thanks for the advice Doug. And nice tune! -_-

I read again Little Brother's article on home recording. "Acceptable sound" is a relative notion and I think for now I can get by with something even crappier than your setup. :WNK>

Norm AKA Gemnoc

Quote from: sdelsolray on April 01, 2006, 01:49:12 PM
A $1,000 initial budget for a basic home recording setup in probably a minimum amount.  Some folks get by with less but they do this by not building the basic setup completely.  A frequent "cost cutting" step is to not buy reference monitors, choosing instead to use a home stereo or simple headphones for monitoring.  Bad move.  To many in the know, the monitoring chain is the most important part of any studio because it allows you to hear what is being recorded, mixed, etc.

Hi Wacko, I'd have to agree with sdelsolray on this, but I do think $1K is a bit high.  Here's my home recording setup:

• Behringer B2 Pro Large condensor mic -  $150
• M-Audio Duo (USB Digital/analog interface) $250
• Alesis M1 MKII active  monitors - $349
• Total: $750

I use nTrack, but Audacity should be fine.

You can wait on the monitors, but your mixing will suffer. 

Here's a sample recording of the above setup.  It is exaclty how thiis guitar sounds live.
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=10959.0

I'd be glad to talk more.  PM me or we can talk on the phone.

David

Quote from: dberch on April 01, 2006, 03:08:31 PM
Hi Wacko, I'd have to agree with sdelsolray on this, but I do think $1K is a bit high.  Here's my home recording setup:

• Behringer B2 Pro Large condensor mic -  $150
• M-Audio Duo (USB Digital/analog interface) $250
• Alesis M1 MKII active  monitors - $349
• Total: $750

I use nTrack, but Audacity should be fine.

You can wait on the monitors, but your mixing will suffer. 

Here's a sample recording of the above setup.  It is exaclty how thiis guitar sounds live.
http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=10959.0

I'd be glad to talk more.  PM me or we can talk on the phone.

David

Hey David

Thanks for posting your setup and the link to the recording.  Nice work!

As you can probably tell from my posts, its the device in the middle, between the mic  and the computer I am trying to nail down.

I've been given lots of product names,  but its the FUNCTION of that device I am trying to understand.  For now...forget about the monitors. I just want to get it from my strings to the harddrive using a condensor mic.

I don't think the M-audio duo is sold anymore since I don't see it on their website, but their Mobile Recording  page seems to have lots of products like it that allow recording from a mic/pickup to a computer.  I know it can be done with 1 device..but all these great folks keep mentioning different devices/terms.  My head is spinning and the wall next to my computer has a dent in it.

Cheers..chris

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 01, 2006, 02:56:18 PM
LOL, thanks for the advice Doug.

Though this is not my thread, I want to extend my thanks to everyone who posted their advice so far. Searching for and reading reviews, articles is fine but there's nothing like straight and direct info from actual people who use the stuff.

Keep them coming. -_-

Here's another USB Digital interface that should work fine for you. I've heard good things about it.

Tascam US-122
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASUS122

It has the mic pre-amps and phantom power to drive your condensor mic, and line out to drive your powered monitors when you decide to get them.

Requires USB 2.0.  Check your computer documentation to make sure you have 2.0.

David.

Why are the powered monitors so much better than headphones?

I would think less feedback worries with headphones.

btw, I see the Tascam US122 on ebay for around $140 new/warranty. thanks

If you are mixing and you have feedback, you got some big problems with your setup. Headphones are for tracking. Use monitors for everything else(mixing). Headphones distort the stereo image, when ever you listen to something on speakers, both ears hear each channel. You want to hear the mix in more real life setting and headphones don't offer that.

Wacko, if you think the equipment setup is complicated wait till you start recording and have to deal with untreated room reflections.

Quote from: jeremy3220 on April 01, 2006, 06:15:28 PM
If you are mixing and you have feedback, you got some big problems with your setup. Headphones are for tracking. Use monitors for everything else(mixing). Headphones distort the stereo image, when ever you listen to something on speakers, both ears hear each channel. You want to hear the mix in more real life setting and headphones don't offer that.

Wacko, if you think the equipment setup is complicated wait till you start recording and have to deal with untreated room reflections.

Great..as if things are bad enough already.  But thanks to all i think my headache is subsiding and i am close to making a decison on the limited budget i have.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on April 01, 2006, 07:21:30 PM
Great..as if things are bad enough already.  But thanks to all i think my headache is subsiding and i am close to making a decison on the limited budget i have.

I sing to my dogs. It always sounds good to them (if I give them a biscuit first).

Its also less complicated... -_-

LOL Randy. ^_^

drathbun, I decided to follow your route and went to Wall-Mart and bought a cheap Philips mic. It was almost $17, talk about inflation in 7 years. :WNK>

I tried it tonight. Well some editing is needed to get a passable result. The "center" of the waveform was at -25dB instead of zero, and talk about noise. I somehow got to reduce it with the settings (I'm very much a novice at this) but the track sounds tin and metallic (and very weak). It looks like I may upgrade sooner than I expected.

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 01, 2006, 11:09:24 PM
LOL Randy. ^_^

drathbun, I decided to follow your route and went to Wall-Mart and bought a cheap Philips mic. It was almost $17, talk about inflation in 7 years. :WNK>

I tried it tonight. Well some editing is needed to get a passable result. The "center" of the waveform was at -25dB instead of zero, and talk about noise. I somehow got to reduce it with the settings (I'm very much a novice at this) but the track sounds tin and metallic (and very weak). It looks like I may upgrade sooner than I expected.

Hey Gemnoc

I believe the next level (cheapest) upgrade is to get one of these all-in-1 boxes.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MobilePreUSB-main.html

It is a preamp (for your mic) and AD adatper all in one..  So rather than buying separate devices (mic pre..AD convertor) ..which costs more but will give better results, you get all in one...cheaper but results not as good.  It's really a trade off.

Let me know what road you take...cheers

The one thing you don't EVER want to do is to record with a microphone in the MIC IN of a standard PC sound card. Even when I was recording directly into my laptop, I ran the mic into an old 4 track reel-to-reel (to use its preamps) and then into the sound card LINE IN input. The MIC IN of any PC card is really unacceptable.

I plugged it into the line in.

Wacko, I'm about as confused as you. Now I'm looking at those preamps with audio/MIDI interfaces. I wonder what's the MIDI for, apart from plugging a keyboard?

This talk about microphones & the comment about noise in the couple of recordings I've done got me investigating. There appears to be a low level hum everywhere in my house, and even outside, that is there all the time. There is a small manufacturing facility about 2 blocks away, and I think that may be the source of at least some of it, maybe all. bummer... I suppose that doing a 'silent' recording and looking at the audio waveform might tell me something.

That's a great way to see where some of the problems may lie. Most modern audio editors will allow you to analyze the waveform.

If you want to post a couple of samples here I will have a look at them and give you some feedback.

Quote from: ronmac on April 02, 2006, 09:03:50 AM
That's a great way to see where some of the problems may lie. Most modern audio editors will allow you to analyze the waveform.

If you want to post a couple of samples here I will have a look at them and give you some feedback.

Ron Thanks. will do

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 02, 2006, 06:26:14 AM
I plugged it into the line in.

Wacko, I'm about as confused as you. Now I'm looking at those preamps with audio/MIDI interfaces. I wonder what's the MIDI for, apart from plugging a keyboard?

Hi

I think the MIDI interface is exactly that...for a keyboard.  Go to that m-audio page where is shows the  M-audio Mobile pre..if you look at that device  there are some simple diagrams under the DETAILS TAB that show all the types of connections.

Just remember...these all-in-one devices do the function of a pre-amp  (boosting signal of mic or guitar)  ..and Analog to digital converter....so you can send it do your computer. There are lots of other functions (condensors..special affects..etc)..but I would not worry about those on a limited budget.

If you are looking at a device that is specifically a PREAMP..then you most likely  have to get something that is a AD convertor also.

Cheers

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on April 02, 2006, 09:59:02 AM
Hi

I think the MIDI interface is exactly that...for a keyboard.  Go to that m-audio page where is shows the  M-audio Mobile pre..if you look at that device  there are some simple diagrams under the DETAILS TAB that show all the types of connections.

Just remember...these all-in-one devices do the function of a pre-amp  (boosting signal of mic or guitar)  ..and Analog to digital converter....so you can send it do your computer. There are lots of other functions (condensors..special affects..etc)..but I would not worry about those on a limited budget.

If you are looking at a device that is specifically a PREAMP..then you most likely  have to get something that is a AD convertor also.

Cheers

Vrunchy,

That's right.  And the "all-in-one" products also have DA converters, to convert the digital siganl on the computer back toa nalog and send it to your monitoring chain.  These products hook up to the computer in one of three common ways: (i) USB, (ii) Firewire or (iii) PCI (as a card mounted in a slot in your computer.  Also, these products usually come with a particular brand of recording/editing software, although many of them will run with several different software products.

I know it's confusing, but once you get the info in your head, it all makes some sense.  After you have used the gear for a while, the hardware part is very clear.  It's the software that takes time to learn how to use, which hould be expected.  Then there's the recording engineering skills....

The Doug Jones video from APM is a great primer on computer recording. I found this book extremely helpful in understanding the techniques of mixing and processing:

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0872887235/qid=1144000296/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_3_1/701-8664495-7626740

Especially helpful was the section on stereo imaging... balancing the instruments, voices etc. within the stereo field.

Another great source of help and information is the Homerecording BBS:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/

Well I went ahead and made the purchase this afternoon.

- M-Audio FastTrack Pro
- Audio-Technica AT2020 condenser mic
- cable
- microphone stand with boom

The MobilePre was not in stock at the 2 stores I visited. My other option was the FastTrack USB, which had no phantom power. Then it was either the Edirol UA25 or the FastTrack Pro, in the same price bracket (sensibly cheaper than the MSRP on M-Audio's website).

As for the AT2020, I know a couple of forumites have said they possess one, and I didn't remember them being unhappy with their mic.

I wanted to install all of this and do some test recording tonight, but I just realized the thread on the mic stand mount is smaller than on the stand. There should have been a thread adapter supplied with the mic according to the doc but it's not there. Damn. :angry:

That's a great starter setup. The Fastrack Pro has a pretty decent feature list, especially considering the price.

A little bit of money buys a lot these days.

Of course we are patiently awaiting some clips...

Nicely done!

Quote from: drathbun
Nicely done!

Well, I received a nice bonus on Friday (actually, overtime pay that was long overdue) and after the quick try with the el-cheapo mic from Wal-Mart, didn't want to wait any longer. :GRN>

Quote from: ronmac on April 02, 2006, 08:39:29 PM
Of course we are patiently awaiting some clips...

Uh, not sure I'd do that. It may be considered torture in some countries. :TON>

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 02, 2006, 10:16:18 PM
Well, I received a nice bonus on Friday (actually, overtime pay that was long overdue) and after the quick try with the el-cheapo mic from Wal-Mart, didn't want to wait any longer. :GRN>
Uh, not sure I'd do that. It may be considered torture in some countries. :TON>

Sounds like a great purchase and very close to what I will be getting.  If you can just record some chords.  ..E  A  D G C ...etc..just so we can here what the setup sounds like.

Cheers.

I'll try to do that tomorrow night. I need to get that adapter so I can fasten the mic to the stand.

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 02, 2006, 08:32:30 PM
Well I went ahead and made the purchase this afternoon.

- M-Audio FastTrack Pro
- Audio-Technica AT2020 condenser mic
- cable
- microphone stand with boom

The MobilePre was not in stock at the 2 stores I visited. My other option was the FastTrack USB, which had no phantom power. Then it was either the Edirol UA25 or the FastTrack Pro, in the same price bracket (sensibly cheaper than the MSRP on M-Audio's website).

As for the AT2020, I know a couple of forumites have said they possess one, and I didn't remember them being unhappy with their mic.

I wanted to install all of this and do some test recording tonight, but I just realized the thread on the mic stand mount is smaller than on the stand. There should have been a thread adapter supplied with the mic according to the doc but it's not there. Damn. :angry:

I've got that AT2020 and for the price, it's awesome.  Very clean and very good reproduction.

Frustrating evening. Today I called 3 music stores and the mic stand thread adapter is not something you can buy separately. It comes with the mic. I have to get the mic back to the store to have the package replaced.

Then my computer went FUBAR as soon as I installed the driver for the Fast Track Pro. Major conflict with the internal sound card (inboard). Multiple hard resets. Then I read in a very brief ReadMe file that Windows XP SP2 is required (was still at SP1). Doh! So I spent my evening cleaning up the mess, then upgrading my PC and while at it doing more restarts than I can remember. Sometimes I miss my old Mac (but not that much).

Now everything works but as soon as I power on the M-Audio, the internal soundcard gets disabled.

I have to say that I'm not impressed by the docs supplied with the USB audio interface. The user's guide gives short descriptions of features without explaining what they are. I'll have to figure it out by myself.

So no recording tonight Crunchy, sorry. :UND>

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 04, 2006, 01:38:09 AM
Frustrating evening. Today I called 3 music stores and the mic stand thread adapter is not something you can buy separately. It comes with the mic. I have to get the mic back to the store to have the package replaced.

Then my computer went FUBAR as soon as I installed the driver for the Fast Track Pro. Major conflict with the internal sound card (inboard). Multiple hard resets. Then I read in a very brief ReadMe file that Windows XP SP2 is required (was still at SP1). Doh! So I spent my evening cleaning up the mess, then upgrading my PC and while at it doing more restarts than I can remember. Sometimes I miss my old Mac (but not that much).

Now everything works but as soon as I power on the M-Audio, the internal soundcard gets disabled.

I have to say that I'm not impressed by the docs supplied with the USB audio interface. The user's guide gives short descriptions of features without explaining what they are. I'll have to figure it out by myself.

So no recording tonight Crunchy, sorry. :UND>

I feel your pain  Guinea pig...ahhh..Gemnoc I mean.  I also run SP1..and don't want to upgrade to SP2. Also not liking idea of using USB.

Keep working at it..good luck.

Well my little WalMart mic and Creative soundcard works good for me and my practice runs.

If I was going to upgrade, I would go with a Firewire interface like on the M-Audio 410 uses and then add that MXL 990/993 package to it.  No USB for me.  Firewire PCI cards are cheap, dump the USB.

IEEE 1394 Firewire is about 30 times faster then USB.  That's why you hear about latency problems with USB interfaces.

Steve  :GRN>

[attachment no longer available]

Seriously think I might go with the M-audio solo..with Firewire and the AT2020 mic.  Going to GEMNOC to report back though.

Well I've managed to get everything working. Since I won't be able to go back to the store till Thursday night, I had the shop (I work for a metal manufacturer) make a rudimentary fitting so that I could install my microphone to the stand. It's ugly but hey it works. :WNK>

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4088/micfitting3dk.th.jpg) (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=micfitting3dk.jpg)

Now for the tests. One thing that surprises me is I need to crank the input gain level knob almost to the max to hear something. But then I can hear the hum from the computer 3 to 4 feet from the mic. So I turn it down slightly but you still can hear the computer. I may need to do something about that in the future. Make an isolating box? Since I'm a tenant I don't think the owner would be happy if I cut a hole in the wall to put the PC in the other room, like I've read a user on another forum did. ^_^

Anyway Crunchy, here's a basic sound file with strummed chords. The guitar was about 12 inches from the mic. No processing other than wav to mp3 (VBR 192kbps) conversion.

Sound sample (http://pages.infinit.net/gemini/E-A-D-C-G.mp3)

I'm glad I didn't spend $250+ on the mike, I think this one is gonna do the job nicely.

I'll need to buy the book drathbun talked about, or some equivalent. A coworker told me he has an instructional DVD on home recording he'll bring me.

One thing is very clear when I listen to my first recordings. I'm a sloppy player, with rythm deficiencies (even with metronome to guide me I'm slightly off with my rythm) and poor volume control. :EM>

Hey Gemnoc

WOW!  The quality is much better than I thought it was going to be. Sounds a bit thin on the low end but not sure what kind of LARRI you are playing. Overall it sounds very clear and I can't hear the computer hum. That is definately something I will have to watch out for.

Would love to hear some picking sounds. If you don't want to post them here feel free to message me and I will send you my email.

Cheers..chris

The Larry I play is in my signature. :WNK>

About the sample sounding thin, Little Brother in his video tutorial says that the nearer you are from the mic, the more bass you'll hear. Maybe it would sound different at 6 inches. Or possibly the rendition is not 100% perfect, because my LV's got plenty of bass even though it's no dread. Position of the mic, setup, hardware, it could be a lot of things I guess.

As for picking, I do some simple stuff. I made a recording of Tears in Heaven and it was awful. I'll try again tomorrow. It's odd because I get nervous when the record button is on. Go figure.

Congratulations on getting your first sounds! It all seems daunting at first, but with  little work it will become a lot easier.

Learning to capture the sounds is as much of a challenge as learning to play the instrument.

Mic placement can be very critical to getting a good quality sound, especially in a home environment where the room you are recording in isn't treated to provide proper isolation and sound control. Experiment with a variety of placements and you will find one that works best in your situation.

I am sure over the next few days/weeks you'll be experimenting with mic placement and SW parms.  I look forward to hearing the final result.  So other than the SP2 upgrade..was there anything tricky about getting it all setup?

Gemnoc:

I'm wondering if your gain problem with the AT2020 comes from having the mic facing the wrong way while recording? The AT2020 has a cardioid pickup pattern. If you get the mic back to front, you'll have serious attenuation of the signal. Plus it will pick up whatever sound is being produced in the opposite direction (the computer fan perhaps?). I know this happens, because I've done it myself with my Apex 435.

I made sure to place the back opposite to the guitar. It's written on the mic (good thing). But due to the stand height and the mic bracket design, I was forced to leave the mic at a 45 degree angle (as in the posted picture). Would that cause attenuation of the signal?

I just made a google search and found this:

QuoteThe advantage to using a microphone with a cardioid pickup pattern lies in the ability to isolate sounds. You can point the mic at one instrument while you're pointing it away from another instrument. The disadvantage to a cardioid pickup pattern is that it will typically only give you a full sound from a close proximity to the sound source. Once you're a foot or two away from the sound source a cardioid pickup pattern produces a very thin-sounding rendition of the sound you're miking.

I'll try playing closer and sitting on a stool instead of my computer chair. The mic should be straighter...

Hello Crunchy Wacko,

I made some more tests tonight. The distance to the mic definitely changes the sound. Compare the previous strummed chords to this one:

Sample #2 (http://pages.infinit.net/gemini/E-A-D-C-Gv2.mp3)

This time I was maybe 3 to 5 inches from the mic instead of more than 12".

I still need the input gain level to be at 9/10 to get reasonnable volume. In my sound editing software, the wavelength peak is at -9 to -15dB for moderate to loud strumming. When not playing, it's at -45/-55dB. Is that normal?

I have now reached the storage limit from my ISP. Any suggestions for free file hosting? Something like ImageShack but for sound files would be great.

Quote from: SteveK on April 04, 2006, 04:46:19 PMIEEE 1394 Firewire is about 30 times faster then USB.  That's why you hear about latency problems with USB interfaces.

Compared to USB 1.1, yes. Not with USB 2.0.

Bandwidth

FireWire (IEE 1394) --- up to 400 Mbps
USB 2.0 --- up to 480 Mbps

Due to differences in architecture (don't ask me!), FireWire is faster in sustained throughput than USB 2.0. But not 30 times faster. :WNK>

Thanks for the comments guys. I have truly hijacked Crunchy Wacko's thread. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 05, 2006, 11:22:02 PM
Thanks for the comments guys. I have truly hijacked Crunchy Wacko's thread. :rolleyes:

Not at all. I think we are both gettng tons out of this chat. You just have a bigger wallet than me at the moment.
Hopefully there were others that were as confused about home recording as us and are much more enlightened thanks to the many
great friends on this forum.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on April 05, 2006, 08:37:28 AM
So other than the SP2 upgrade..was there anything tricky about getting it all setup?

Forgot to answer that. After SP2 was installed, no problem whatsoever. Just plug and play.

Well I'm still mystified by the low gain of the condensor and that you need 9/10 to get a good signal. What kind of preamp is in the M-Audio? Does it have a preamp? I run my Apex 435 to a Behringer MIC200 Tube Preamp and if I bring my input channel up to 3, I can hear a caterpillar crawling across the carpet in the next room!

QuoteDue to differences in architecture (don't ask me!), FireWire is faster in sustained throughput than USB 2.0. But not 30 times faster.

Actually Firewire can go over the 1.1 USB vs Firewire (30 times faster performance.) 

Read below about FireWire vs. USB 2.0

Question: Which is faster Hi-Speed USB 2.0 or FireWire?
Answer: In sustained throughput FireWire is faster than USB 2.0.

Question: If Hi-Speed USB 2.0 is a 480 Mbps interface and FireWire is a 400 Mbps interface, how can FireWire be faster?
Answer: Differences in the architecture of the two interfaces have a huge impact on the sustained throughput. 

FireWire vs. USB 2.0 - Architecture

FireWire, uses a "Peer-to-Peer" architecture in which the peripherals are intelligent and can negotiate bus conflicts to determine which device can best control a data transfer.

Hi-Speed USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower data flow control)

FireWire vs. USB 2.0 Hard Drive Performance Comparison
Read and write tests to the same IDE hard drive connected using FireWire and then Hi-Speed USB 2.0 show:   
Read Test:
5000 files (300 MB total) FireWire was 33% faster than USB 2.0·   160 files (650MB total) FireWire was 70% faster than USB 2.0
Write Test:
5000 files (300 MB total) FireWire was 16% faster than USB 2.0·   160 files (650MB total) FireWire was 48% faster than USB 2.0

The above is why many USB audio interface users complain about latency problems.  Just read some reviews at the retailers and you can see the USB can sometimes be a pain to use.  In fact most digiital/video is done with IEE 1394 not USB 2.0

IMHO the differences between USB 2.0 and Firewire (IEEE394) transfer rates are not that crucial to the majority of audio users. Audio doesn't present nearly the demands on a system that video does.

The main reason that USB users have problems is due to the number of non-audio devices (printers, mouse, PDA, camera, keyboard, etc.) they have connected to their USB Bus. It is recomended that you disable as many as possible when you are doing some serious recording so that their is no competition for the bus bandwidth.

Given a choice I would select a Firewire interface and install a seperate controller for it alone.

Like everything computer related, most users have different hardware/software setups and problems cannot be attributed to anything as simple as which input device you are using.

Quote from: SteveK on April 06, 2006, 02:21:05 AM
Actually Firewire can go over the 1.1 USB vs Firewire (30 times faster performance.)

Steve, I don't understand your sentence. :huh:

Funny, I found the same page with this comparative info between USB and FireWire.

My point was and still is, FireWire is not 30 times faster than USB 2.0. Your examples show 70% as the biggest differential for file transfers. 

And the fact is, most USB devices nowadays are USB 2.0 compliant. USB 1.1 is obsolete.

Cheers

Quote from: drathbun on April 06, 2006, 01:58:42 AM
Well I'm still mystified by the low gain of the condensor and that you need 9/10 to get a good signal. What kind of preamp is in the M-Audio? Does it have a preamp? I run my Apex 435 to a Behringer MIC200 Tube Preamp and if I bring my input channel up to 3, I can hear a caterpillar crawling across the carpet in the next room!

The M-Audio includes preamps.

Here's what it says about the mic inputs:

Mic Inputs (A/D)
Input Impedance 2.7k Ohms unbalanced, 5.4k Ohms balanced
Maximum Input Level from +24dBu @ min gain, pad on to -40dBu @ max gain, no pad
Channel-to-Channel Crosstalk < -110dB
SNR -101dB, A-weighted
Dynamic Range 101dB, A-weighted
THD+N 0.005% (-86dB) @ -1dBFS, 1kHz
Frequency Response 20Hz to 20kHz, +/- 0.1dB
Pre-amp Gain >40dB
Pad -20dB pad

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 06, 2006, 06:46:07 PM
The M-Audio includes preamps.

Here's what it says about the mic inputs:

Mic Inputs (A/D)
Input Impedance 2.7k Ohms unbalanced, 5.4k Ohms balanced
Maximum Input Level from +24dBu @ min gain, pad on to -40dBu @ max gain, no pad
Channel-to-Channel Crosstalk < -110dB
SNR -101dB, A-weighted
Dynamic Range 101dB, A-weighted
THD+N 0.005% (-86dB) @ -1dBFS, 1kHz
Frequency Response 20Hz to 20kHz, +/- 0.1dB
Pre-amp Gain >40dB
Pad -20dB pad

Does the Fast Track Pro use M-Audio's software mixer?  If it does, be sure the gain is up there.  Also, I'm sure it is, but be sure the phantom power is on.

Yeah, something's not quite right with your mic and preamp.  You shouldn't have to turn it up that high to get a full signal.

The phantom power is on. I'm plugging the M-Audio through my PC's front panel. Someone told me the 2 front ports provide lower power than the ones at the back, and that may be the cause of the low signal (not enough power to the mic :huh:). I'm sceptical since there is no such mention in my motherboard user's guide. But I'll give it a try (back USB port) anyway.

The maximum gain on the preamp is only 40 db (typical studio mic pres offer up to 65 db) so the gain will need to be set fairly high on this device for the mic.

[/b]I also noticed that there is a 20 db pad. Make sure that is not engaged as it will drop the mic signal by 1/2.

Quote from: ronmac on April 07, 2006, 05:50:07 AM
The maximum gain on the preamp is only 40 db (typical studio mic pres offer up to 65 db) so the gain will need to be set fairly high on this device for the mic.

Bingo - this is the reason right here.   No more mysteries.  It pays dividends to pay attention to gain and signal to noise ratio when shopping for an I/O device.

-Scott

As long as the pad is not engaged, that is enough gain for a modern condensor. You don't have the advantage of the headroom of a more upscale device, but hey, these are priced and produced for a home recordist, not someone doing a 40 seat orchestra recording.

Thanks for your input guys. It's a hardware limitation then, and I have two choices: get a refund or keep it and work within the limitations. I think I can do the latter.

Quote from: ronmac on April 07, 2006, 05:50:07 AM
The maximum gain on the preamp is only 40 db (typical studio mic pres offer up to 65 db) so the gain will need to be set fairly high on this device for the mic.

[/b]I also noticed that there is a 20 db pad. Make sure that is not engaged as it will drop the mic signal by 1/2.

Ok guys..spell it out for me. PAD..what is it?  Gemnoc..did you have it engaged on your recording?

A "pad" is an attenuator that can be applied if you are micing something that is very loud, ie. kick drum, and would otherwise overload the rest of your signal chain. In simpler terms it's a gain control with a fixed amount of reduction.

Quote from: ronmac on April 07, 2006, 05:50:07 AM
The maximum gain on the preamp is only 40 db (typical studio mic pres offer up to 65 db) so the gain will need to be set fairly high on this device for the mic.

[/b]I also noticed that there is a 20 db pad. Make sure that is not engaged as it will drop the mic signal by 1/2.

Yep, that's the reason for sure.  40dB gain is not an awful lot.  Of course, it depends also on the sensitivity spec (i.e., output rating) of the mic you use.

I would strongly consider returning the interface and getting one with preamps with higher gain, 50dB at a minimum, 60dB+ would be better.

Quote from: sdelsolray on April 07, 2006, 11:06:09 AM
Yep, that's the reason for sure.  40dB gain is not an awful lot.  Of course, it depends also on the sensitivity spec (i.e., output rating) of the mic you use.

I would strongly consider returning the interface and getting one with preamps with higher gain, 50dB at a minimum, 60dB+ would be better.

Would it make a difference if we were using a passive pickup rather than a MIC?  The next M-audio device with a increase in GAIN is the Firewire 410 model at $150 more. ..it has 66db gain

The passive pickup will not require as much gain as most microphones, so it will be fine.

The AT2020 has a fairly respectable output so 40db of gain will work, although as I mentioned earlier you won't have a lot of headroom.

The Firewire 410 has a much larger feature set so the extra money is well spent, if that is what you are after.

Regardless of what you are buying, the budget always dictates the available choices.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on April 07, 2006, 07:22:39 AM
Gemnoc..did you have it engaged (PAD) on your recording?

I am the kind of people who read their manual before using their stuff. Some were questionning if I had put the phantom power on, now you ask about the pad button... So will you all stop taking me for a fool? ^_^

Short answer, no it was not engaged. :WNK>

You are not cool guys.  :WNK> Now I just called the store to see if I could switch the FastTrack for a FireWire 410 unit.

Another possibility is to exchange it for the Tascam US-122 that dberch mentioned. About the same price as the FastTrack Pro. But I don't know what is the input gain level. Out of the technical specs that are gibberish to me, does anything here equates to the input gain?
    - gain attenuation @ 1kHz..... better than -90dB
    - nominal input levels (MIC L & R, XLR balanced) ..... -54dBU (TRIM=max) to -16dBU (TRIM=min)

Apart from having more headroom, what is the advantage of more input gain? At 9/10 it seems I can record reasonnably well. At max, it is too sensitive to have good result. I hear many ambiant noises like the computer hum, the "swoosh" of my satin finish guitar on my clothes, even my loud breathing (damn allergies have me congested). So if I can get still more gain what would be the purpose? Or does that mean I could record farther from the mic (say 12 inches) and retain a bassy tone, not like the thin sound Crunchy Wacko reported on my first sample?

Quote from: ronmac on April 07, 2006, 12:34:59 PM
The passive pickup will not require as much gain as most microphones, so it will be fine.

The AT2020 has a fairly respectable output so 40db of gain will work, although as I mentioned earlier you won't have a lot of headroom.

The Firewire 410 has a much larger feature set so the extra money is well spent, if that is what you are after.

Regardless of what you are buying, the budget always dictates the available choices.

Ron

Agreed on the pickup issue.  As to the mic and gain, I disasgree.  The AT 2020 has a sesitivity spec of 14.1 mV/Pa, quite average for a condenser mic.  For example, a Schoeps CMC6/MK4 has a spec of 13 mV/Pa.  Compare that to a Neumann M149 tube mic, considered by many as a "hot" mic.  It has a 47 mV/Pa signal.

The AT 2020 will not work well with only 40dB of preamp gain available, and like you said, there would be no headroom with a 40dB preamp.

So that means I would benefit from upgrading to the FireWire 410... Or that I should have put more money in the mic. Well, there goes another chunk of my overtime money. :WNK>

This Neumann mic has a pretty steep mV/Pa to $ ratio. ^_^

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 07, 2006, 08:48:41 PM
So that means I would benefit from upgrading to the FireWire 410... Or that I should have put more money in the mic. Well, there goes another chunk of my overtime money. :WNK>

This Neumann mic has a pretty steep mV/Pa to $ ratio. ^_^

I'm acutally wondering if the better route is a passive pickup and staying with the lower cost units.? 

I am guessing that the pickup won't record any of the computer hum/fan..and you have more play with the gain..don't have to worry about a mic stand or placement. Not sure about the sound quality though.

Does anyone have a sample recording of a K&K or equal pickup using one of these all-in-1 devices to a computer?

Cheers..chris

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 07, 2006, 08:48:41 PM
So that means I would benefit from upgrading to the FireWire 410... Or that I should have put more money in the mic. Well, there goes another chunk of my overtime money. :WNK>

This Neumann mic has a pretty steep mV/Pa to $ ratio. ^_^

The FIrewire 410 gets good reviews and is adequate for home recording tasks.  Just for fun, take a look at this product:

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/MDP-1.html

It's one of the finest microphone preamps on the planet - a world class high end preamp.  I only ask you to look at it briefly for comparison purposes.

Now, if you're getting into recording, even on the budget level, you'll end up spending somewhere near $1,000, at a minimum to get all the basic equipment that is necessary to record, mix, etc., and that's not counting the computer cost.  So relax.  It's a great hobby.

Quote from: sdelsolray on April 07, 2006, 11:37:11 PM
Just for fun, take a look at this product:

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/MDP-1.html

It's one of the finest microphone preamps on the planet - a world class high end preamp.  I only ask you to look at it briefly for comparison purposes.

Well, compared to the Neumann mic... It's a steal! :WNK>

Odd: this MDP-1 has a gain level of only 30dB? (+33 to +63) :huh:

The voice of reason tells me the FastTrack is more than enough for my purpose and skills. But the 410 is tempting.

I'm going back to the store tomorrow to get the 5/8-27 to 3/8-16 thread adapter for the mic. I'll sleep on it.

Quote from: Crunchy Wacko on April 07, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
I'm acutally wondering if the better route is a passive pickup and staying with the lower cost units.? 

I am guessing that the pickup won't record any of the computer hum/fan..and you have more play with the gain..don't have to worry about a mic stand or placement. Not sure about the sound quality though.

Mine has the factory-installed B-Band A5. I guess it's an active pickup. I plugged it directly to my computer soundcard and found the sound was not to my liking. Sort of "metallic" sound. Somehow the general consensus is, the best way to record is with a mic, pickup is for stage. Anyway, I've got a 12-string un-amplified that I want to record, hence my purchase...

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 08, 2006, 12:20:38 AM
Mine has the factory-installed B-Band A5. I guess it's an active pickup. I plugged it directly to my computer soundcard and found the sound was not to my liking. Sort of "metallic" sound. Somehow the general consensus is, the best way to record is with a mic, pickup is for stage. Anyway, I've got a 12-string un-amplified that I want to record, hence my purchase...

Hi

Is it possible to plug your pickup into the M-audio and bypass the mic?  I'd just like to hear the difference. 

What about having both mic and pickup    :SHK>

chris

The dual-source was actually in my plans.

I'll do both tests tomorrow.

BTW I went to the Larrivée website for some info on my pickup. It uses as a source an UST (under saddle transducer). Not sure how it compares to the K&K.

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 07, 2006, 11:56:30 PM
Well, compared to the Neumann mic... It's a steal! :WNK>

Odd: this MDP-1 has a gain level of only 30dB? (+33 to +63) :huh:

The voice of reason tells me the FastTrack is more than enough for my purpose and skills. But the 410 is tempting.

I'm going back to the store tomorrow to get the 5/8-27 to 3/8-16 thread adapter for the mic. I'll sleep on it.

The MDP-1's gain "range" is 30dB.  Notice the output attenuator too.  In essense there are two volume controls for each channel.  The first is the gain, in 3dB increments over a 30dB range.  The output attenuator goes from 0 to 10.  Since the unit produces a minimum of 33dB gain to begin with, you can have 0dB gain to 63dB gain depending on how you set the gain and output controls.

Gemnoc the equipment you have will do as good a job as anything else you can buy within the stated budget. If you want to start piling on dough it is easy to get better specs.

Well, with 40dB of gain max, you'll at least get to learn about signal to noise ratio.

[Slow 12-bar blues shuffle in E]
Well I've got the home recording blues
Yeah Baby!
...
[/shuffle]  

I went to the store this afternoon to replace the FastTrack for the FireWire 410. So you can stop hitting the nail sdelsolray. ^_^

Took some fiddling to get it to work. At first I had no power going through the thing. I checked that the unit was not defective by plugging it to the AC adapter. It was alimented all right, so that was a computer problem. Next I checked M-Audio's KB and learned that this device is compatible with IEEE 1394a and B, but not the earlier generation of chipsets which are 1394 only. I wasn't sure what I had since my PC is 3 years old, and never used the thing. I checked my motherboard user's manual, 1394a it says. Few, I won't have to buy a FireWire PCI card! It then occured to me to check if the front FireWire port was actually plugged to the motherboard (hey with PC-clones expect the unexpected)... Had to turn off the PC, unplug the gazillion wires, open the case... Bingo. The only ports working are the 2 at the back of the PC. :rolleyes:

Afterwards it was pretty straightforward, but I'll need a longer FireWire cable because the one supplied is insanely short and my PC is on the floor below the desk.

Tried it... World of difference with the added gain available. I can now record with the guitar 12 inches or more from the mic without it sounding thin. Input gain level knob at three-quarter. Headroom is good. :WNK>

I've got a new mic stand (the previous one was too tall to record while sitting), the mic thread adapter issue was resolved... ashamed to admit it was already screwed into the mic bracket, I only needed to remove it to get the larger thread. How dumb... :rolleyes:

I'm all set-up to record now.

Thanks for your comments guys!

Good move.  I'll put the hammer away.  Really, though, gain and headroom are good things - the more the better.  Plus you get versitility (ability to move mics farther away if you want, you can use dynamics mics, better signal to noise ratio, etc.).

Ok...let's here a demo!!  We've know what the old setup is like. :)  Give us your best Tommy E tune. At least some stumming and picking.

Sounds like I am saving for the 410.  OT here I come.

I'm glad too hear that you are getting the results you want with the new device. Sometimes it is necessary to adjust the budget to meet your expectations.

Thanks ronmac. But buying stuff that exceeds my needs or my skills seems to be a tendancy of late, starting with the purchase of my Larrivée. :GRN>

Crunchy, don't forget to allow in your budget $20-30 for a 6' FireWire cable, unless you plan on putting the interface besides or on top of your CPU. The cable supplied is only 3'.

One minor annoyance: although you can "hot-plug" a FireWire device, there's a warning in the box not to do so. It says "We strongly encourage you to protect your equipment by refraining from hot-plugging any bus-powered FireWire device, including the M_Audio family of FireWire products." Apparently, there have been isolated occurences where the device or the FireWire port of the host computer or both were rendered permanently inoperable. That means I have to power down the computer, power up the M-Audio and then turn the computer on.

Thanks for the advice Gemnoc.

Glad to hear everything has worked out and appreciate all the work you have done! :)

Gemnoc

I see the diagram for the 410 on the m-audio website shows a connection to a Surround sound Receiver. Does this imply you can hook it up to your home theatre and hear it over those speakers?

Thanks

I believe so.

While the FastTrack was pretty simple, the FW 410 is a lot more complex. The software control panel allows for many configurations with the outpout and input levels through virtual knobs and levers. I must confess I'm at a loss there and left it with the default settings. Again, the documentation is unsatisfying to the neophyte that I am. :UND>

Build quality is top. The FT casing was made of molded plastic. The FW410 has a silver painted plastic faceplate but a dark grey sheetmetal casing (I work for a custom metal products manufacturing company so I'm a little biased toward well, metal :GRN>). Very nice look.

Well Crunchy Wacko, there's one sample of a cliché song. :rolleyes:

One track is a 12-string Aria, 2 tracks my LV.

Download page (http://www.bestsharing.com/files/ms00129171/WYWH128.mp3.html)

The volume levels are all wrong. I don't know how to adjust that. And there's no noise reduction on the software supplied with the M-Audio! (Ableton Live Lite 5) I'll have to revert to another software that allows more editing. A coworker told me he'll give me Cakewalk 8 with serial (for free!), as he works on Cubase now. Is that old? It's not listed on Cakewalk's website.

Awesome job!! Besides the levels being  a bit off..the sound is great. Lots of fullness on the lower end. Sounds like you have a great setup Gemnoc. Is that the first time doing multiple tracks?

Thanks.

I've made attempts at the same song last week with the FastTrack and my 6-string only. Just built up the courage to change the strings on the old Aria this afternoon. I believe the previous set had been there for 5 years, at least. It's my little sister's guitar that I borrowed since she doesn't play anymore. Some songs demand to be played on a 12-string! :GRN>

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 09, 2006, 10:36:38 PM
Well Crunchy Wacko, there's one sample of a cliché song. :rolleyes:

One track is a 12-string Aria, 2 tracks my LV.

Download page (http://www.bestsharing.com/files/ms00129171/WYWH128.mp3.html)

The volume levels are all wrong. I don't know how to adjust that. And there's no noise reduction on the software supplied with the M-Audio! (Ableton Live Lite 5) I'll have to revert to another software that allows more editing. A coworker told me he'll give me Cakewalk 8 with serial (for free!), as he works on Cubase now. Is that old? It's not listed on Cakewalk's website.

If your friend is offering Cakewalk 8 with a serial number it is pirated software. Just a heads-up! Cubase is not a Cakewalk product. Cakewalk makes Sonar. Cubase is by Steinberg.

You should try some of the free recording programs out there like Audacity. (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/)

Then you can adjust the balance of your levels and do some stereo separation. Pan your 12 string slightly left and your six string slightly right. Better yet, make a copy of each track and pan the original hard right and the copy hard left for both. Then adjust the left right of one 12 string track and one 6 string track towards centre. You'll be amazed at the change in the quality of the resulting mix!

Once you start playing with tracks and effects you'll be hooked forever! Try adding a touch of reverb to your instruments and then play with various amounts of compression. You'll get all kinds of different opinions about effects and compression, but like everything, it is all subjective ... it all comes down to what sounds good to your ear!

I know that Cakewalk and Cubase are two different softwares. He has not offered a pirated copy, but his own paid-for disc with serial. He switched to Cubase a few years ago and has no need for Cakewalk anymore.

I've looked at Audacity but it does not seem to have a buit-in metronome. I guess I could always purchase one.

The problem I have with my volume levels is I've recorded all 3 tracks at the same input gain level. The first part (solo) of the second track gets drowned by the 12-string, then the 2nd solo part is drowned by the 2 other tracks. I've tried raising the tracks' levels in the software but it stops at 6 (dB? not mentioned) and it is not sufficient. Maybe I should have recorded the solo track with more gain to begin with.

Thanks for the tips drathbun, I'll try that!

QuoteI've looked at Audacity but it does not seem to have a buit-in metronome. I guess I could always purchase one.

Or you could record a single track with a borrowed metronome, or better still, download this VST metronome plug in:

http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/DH_Metronome.htm

(http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/images/dhMetronome.png)

Quote from: Gemnoc on April 10, 2006, 07:11:17 PM
I know that Cakewalk and Cubase are two different softwares. He has not offered a pirated copy, but his own paid-for disc with serial. He switched to Cubase a few years ago and has no need for Cakewalk anymore.

I've looked at Audacity but it does not seem to have a buit-in metronome. I guess I could always purchase one.

The problem I have with my volume levels is I've recorded all 3 tracks at the same input gain level. The first part (solo) of the second track gets drowned by the 12-string, then the 2nd solo part is drowned by the 2 other tracks. I've tried raising the tracks' levels in the software but it stops at 6 (dB? not mentioned) and it is not sufficient. Maybe I should have recorded the solo track with more gain to begin with.

Thanks for the tips drathbun, I'll try that!

If you have the original CD and serial for Cakewalk 8, I would venture to say that would be better than Audacity! I started using Cakewalk in version 9 so I'm not so familiar with 8. Also, Audacity does have a feature to generate a click track which is essentially a metronome. Just go to "Generate / Click Track".

Recording your tracks into Audacity you can adjust input gain at the top centre of the program's taskbar. Just don't allow your input levels to "clip" into the red. Digital distortion = BAD... Analog distortion = GOOD (tube amps). Once you've recorded the tracks then you can adjust the track volume and right/left balance with the track sliders on the left of the track (use mono tracks BTW). The hotter your original signal (without distortion) the better signal to noise ratio (SNR) you'll get in your recording. This is sometimes called "headroom". Yes the track slider is in dB. If you are having to push up to +6bB, your input signal isn't strong enough. You could use the "Amplify" feature in Audacity's Effect list, but preamping the original signal up to line level should be the first thing you do.

Thanks for the link ronmac! I'll give it a try.

I have a lot of things to get familiarized with. I'll try to get my hands on the book ronmac talked about.

Well the coworker I talked about gave me his software, it's Cakewalk Pro Audio 7. It's an oldie, it says Windows 95/NT on the CD, the date is 1998. I'm not even sure this app is compatible with ASIO drivers?  :huh: But with the serial and CD key, I could get an upgrade on one of Cakewalk's products for a lot less than full price.

Another coworker lent my a DVD called "The Basics of Modern Recording & Mixing" and is made by a company called Secrets of the Pros. Looks promising.

QuoteI was in a similar situation about a year ago trying to figure out a reasonably priced but quality sound solution for recording to my computer.  And I'll preface everything by saying that I am a total recording newbie and by no means an expert on gear  smiley  I just did a lot of research and asked around to people with more knowledge.

So, I ended up with a Studio Projects B1 condensor mic, PreSonus TubePre and M-Audio Audiophile USB interface.  This setup works remarkably well for me and gives me clear, wide range recordings which are also noise free.

The B1 is highly rated and very reasonable (compared to high end mics) at around $100.  The TubePre is also very nice (with a 12Ax7 tube) for warming up the signal and also right around $100 (I think Behringer makes a similar unit which is about $60 but no tube).  The USB interface is something you'd have a lot of choices to pick from....I ended up with the Audiophile USB because it had MIDI in/out which I wanted for my keyboard and it was around $130.

Good luck in your search!

This is a prertty good approximation of what I am using:

I have a B-1 Mic. Good basic dependable Condensor (got used for just around 80 bucks thru H-C classifieds)
Also use a Shure SM57 for yer basic stuff (dynamic do anything mic)

Mic Preamp:
A Studio Projects VTB-1 (only a cooincidence that it is the same make)
http://www.soundpure.com/showProduct.do?id=24

And a Tascam US-224 USB audio interface
got them all used thru some music boards

I run the whole mess into an iMac and into Garageband or Logic Express (pretty much one track at a time.. nothing fancy)
It avoids the whole gobbledy-gook with sound cards and all that

here's a sample of an old  blues song I did
the clanking sound is either my kicking an inverted drawer with a mic under it or two screw drivers to make a sound like a hammer on a rail
lots of psycho slide guitar

personalpages.tds.net/~mstuartev/death come creepin.mp3 (http://personalpages.tds.net/~mstuartev/death%20come%20creepin.mp3)