I was watching this video of the two dreadnought body styles listed above. Does the change in the shape of the upper bouts have an effect on the sound of the instrument? I liked this video because the two instruments were identical except for the upper bout shapes. In this comparison I thought the square shouldered dreadnought had more bass and less treble than the slope shoulder instrument. And yet, on the second fingerstyle demo I thought the square shoulder dreadnought had a treble equal to the slope shoulder instrument. I suspect there is some deviation in the finger attack on these performances. I can't compare my two Dreadnoughts as Larrivee currently only makes a 12-fret slope shoulder instrument and 14-fret slope square shoulder instrument. Has anyone compared these two body styles and come up with their impressions and if the upper bout shape does indeed make a difference?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=462EORDF_08&list=FLS3tqXJPPAJqoixuwOYW9yg&index=16
The upper bought does little to the sound as it's not a highly vibrational area, nor is it a significant acoustic chamber. That's why cutaways don't sound radically different from non cutaways.
Traditionally, sloped vs squared refers to dread styles that have different bracing and scale length, among other things. That's where the difference comes from, not the shoulders. I don't know what's going on in the video but if they're portraying two identical instruments with shoulder-only differences, then they are probably just confusing people and I'd chalk most differences up to performance and variations in wood.
Interesting video. My ears are so uncultured that I am no expert on tonal differences. I do think that slope shoulders are more comfortable to play. You can really cuddle up to the neck and not be bothered by the huge lower bout sticking out under your arm.
A big difference between most slope shoulder and standard dreads has traditionally been the slope shoulders are 12 fret neck joins. These are both 14 fret.
Unless I'm having a major bout of mis-remembering, the original (Diston/Martin) dreads were 12 fret with a longer upper bout. The bout was kind of squished down to make it 14 frets to accommodate the switchover banjo players who were used to access to more frets.
Ed
Quote from: B0WIE on February 01, 2023, 11:35:06 AM
The upper bought does little to the sound as it's not a highly vibrational area, nor is it a significant acoustic chamber. That's why cutaways don't sound radically different from non cutaways.
Traditionally, sloped vs squared refers to dread styles that have different bracing and scale length, among other things. That's where the difference comes from, not the shoulders. I don't know what's going on in the video but if they're portraying two identical instruments with shoulder-only differences, then they are probably just confusing people and I'd chalk most differences up to performance and variations in wood.
That is a very good point. The cutaway really doesn't affect the sound.
Quote from: eded on February 01, 2023, 01:12:36 PM
A big difference between most slope shoulder and standard dreads has traditionally been the slope shoulders are 12 fret neck joins. These are both 14 fret.
Unless I'm having a major bout of mis-remembering, the original (Diston/Martin) dreads were 12 fret with a longer upper bout. The bout was kind of squished down to make it 14 frets to accommodate the switchover banjo players who were used to access to more frets.
Ed
Great history lesson. I looked this up and you are correct the first slope shoulder instruments were 12 fret instruments. Martin squished the upper bouts to make the 14-fret instrument which squared the upper bouts. This really bothers me. I have a Martin DSS-17. While it sounds good, it really isn't historically correct. My Larrivee SD-40RW Bluegrass is much more historically correct (slope shoulder and 12 fret connection). Might have to sell that Martin and get an SD-40 or a D-40 for a mahogany replacement. Every sound video I've seen comparing a 12-fret dreadnaught against a 14 dreadnaught left me feeling there is more presence with the 12-fret instrument and more sustain with the 14-fret instrument. And this applies to my SD -40RW and D-40R.
Scale length is another factor. Martin D28's with 25.5" and Gibson J45's with 24.5"
I was always under the (unscientific/unproven) assumption that a cutaway did impact the sound to some degree because the removal of several square inches of wood meant less wood to vibrate, thus impacting the sound. Maybe not enough to matter, and it doesn't matter to my ears when I play my C-10.
Quote from: StringPicker6 on February 01, 2023, 02:41:33 PM
Scale length is another factor. Martin D28's with 25.5" and Gibson J45's with 24.5"
They are pretty different guitars in other ways too. For most J-45's, a D-18 would be a better comparison (though the 45 is available with rw back and sides.) But still, pretty different guitars.
Ed
Quote from: C-10-4-me on February 02, 2023, 06:13:47 AM
I was always under the (unscientific/unproven) assumption that a cutaway did impact the sound to some degree because the removal of several square inches of wood meant less wood to vibrate, thus impacting the sound. Maybe not enough to matter, and it doesn't matter to my ears when I play my C-10.
I think physics wise, the slightly smaller volume of the body will result in slightly less volume (loudness), but whether that is measurable is anyones guess (and would assume the player doesn't compensate). There is the old adage that EVERYTHING is a tone control, too. I remember somewhere along the lines looking at chlandi (sp?) plate analyses photos and there was a difference in the vibrations, but again... could anyone hear it?
Ed
With this post and a couple of others I've make recently, I've decided I'm going to sell my two Martin instruments is the spring. I like them, but that DSS-17 body style isn't authentic. And I like the D-15, but the variety of things I play are not right on this instrument. I'm not a cutaway fan, but I do like the looks of that Florentine cutaway on the C-10. What a beautiful instrument. And I think I've learned a lot from these posts and some of my preconceptions about build have changed. I always thought the lighter the instrument the bigger the sound. Wrong! My Larrivee dreadnoughts are just as big sounding as the Martin DSS-17. And they have a prettier sound quality. I guess I just prefer the Larrivee sound. I'm still considering a mahogany tone wood instrument.
I was never a cutaway fan either, but I have really fallen for the good looks of the Larrivee LV cutaway. The C-10 florentine cutaway is equally gorgeous.
It's the singer not the song. :winkin:
Quote from: ducktrapper on February 02, 2023, 04:49:49 PM
It's the singer not the song. :winkin:
Lots of truth to this. I have seen real players pick up crap guitars and sound incredible. I have always wanted to be one of those players. I need all the help I can get.
Ed
Quote from: eded on February 02, 2023, 07:34:13 PM
Lots of truth to this. I have seen real players pick up crap guitars and sound incredible. I have always wanted to be one of those players. I need all the help I can get.
Ed
Yeah I've always wanted to be a fly on the wall to see someone's face when they, say, pay 625K for Eric Clapton's guitar and still sound exactly like themselves. :laughin:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/eric-claptons-vintage-guitar-sold-for-over-600000-in-rock-memorabilia-auction/articleshow/87850289.cms
not sure if Larriée places their guitars on a "rig" to photograph them, but here's a quick side-by-each using images of a D40 and an SD40 from their website. Aligned the saddles.
https://www.larrivee.com/products/d-40r-legacy-series
https://www.larrivee.com/products/sd-40r
https://www.larrivee.com/products/l-40r-legacy-series
and one with an "L" - they don't quite match scale exactly - but . . .
Quote from: skyline on February 09, 2023, 07:50:06 PM
not sure if Larriée places their guitars on a "rig" to photograph them, but here's a quick side-by-each using images of a D40 and an SD40 from their website. Aligned the saddles.
This is a really good post. Thank you for the effort it took.
Mike
Quote from: skyline on February 09, 2023, 07:50:06 PM
not sure if Larriée places their guitars on a "rig" to photograph them, but here's a quick side-by-each using images of a D40 and an SD40 from their website. Aligned the saddles.
https://www.larrivee.com/products/d-40r-legacy-series
https://www.larrivee.com/products/sd-40r
https://www.larrivee.com/products/l-40r-legacy-series
and one with an "L" - they don't quite match scale exactly - but . . .
That is a fantastic couple of pics. I've never seen this. It looks as if the three instruments have the same surface area but have different shapes. I have the two in the top pic. It is amazing how different they sound with the different bridge placement. I always seem to grab the D-40R first for whatever reason. But when I play the SD-40R it i amazing how open the instruments sounds and how easily it responds to a fingerstyle attack. I couldn't get rid of either of these two instruments. I have been watching videos of the L model. One review said it was the most versitile of the Larrivee line.
Quote from: ducktrapper on February 02, 2023, 07:54:58 PM
Yeah I've always wanted to be a fly on the wall to see someone's face when they, say, pay 625K for Eric Clapton's guitar and still sound exactly like themselves. :laughin:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/eric-claptons-vintage-guitar-sold-for-over-600000-in-rock-memorabilia-auction/articleshow/87850289.cms
:bgrin:
Quote from: William2 on February 10, 2023, 07:23:07 AM
That is a fantastic couple of pics. I've never seen this. It looks as if the three instruments have the same surface area but have different shapes. I have the two in the top pic. It is amazing how different they sound with the different bridge placement. I always seem to grab the D-40R first for whatever reason. But when I play the SD-40R it i amazing how open the instruments sounds and how easily it responds to a fingerstyle attack. I couldn't get rid of either of these two instruments. I have been watching videos of the L model. One review said it was the most versitile of the Larrivee line.
Like Mike said, thanks for going thru the effort to line those pics up. A perfect example of a picture being worth a thousand words.
And, if I could play big guitars, a L would be it. Absolutely the most versatile guitars I have ever played. Sadly, my shoulders fight against such big boxes for any amount of time and I have learned to play my parlors to get what I want.
Ed
thank you mike in lylte, William2, and eded
I've tried one more things just for fun - the "teal" overlay is the D shape over the SD.
(clicking the images should make them slightly larger in a new browser window)
It would be fun to do this with the main body shapes (the 25.5 scale ones) but I'd need higher resolution source images.
Some of the guitars seem to have been photographed on very slight angles or from a slightly different distance and there just aren't enough pixels in the images from larrivee.com to adjust for that accurately.