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Author Topic: Project Guitar: Input on methods (NEW 12/22)  (Read 7076 times)
Randy_R
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2005, 01:10:53 PM »

I'm not a woodworker. But I believe that normally veneers are created by gluing AND using a high pressure press.

ie: its not like wallpaper.
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ashley7219
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2005, 02:11:08 PM »

Didymus,

Just wanted to say 'keep up the good work'! It looks great and I enjoy seeing the progress.

Cheers mate,
Ashley
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mazareth
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2005, 02:52:55 PM »

Nice looking work so far. As far as the top goes, my inclination would be to go w/clear stain or polish. BTW, what kind of sound did the guitar have before you started altering it??
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didymus21
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2005, 07:05:52 PM »

Nice looking work so far. As far as the top goes, my inclination would be to go w/clear stain or polish. BTW, what kind of sound did the guitar have before you started altering it??

The sound of th guitar was interesting before I started sanding.  Though the sustain was immeasurably long (most likely something to do with the two soundholes?).  The guitar was very bright, however if I were to thump the back or top with my thumb it sounded very dead.  Now that I've sanded down some it seems to be a bit more resonant as I thump the back, not much though.  How far would I want to sand down the back...should I still try to sand down the top more?  The top is currently 4mm thick at the soundhole.  My guitar building book says it should be between .095in and .125iin depending on the type of steel-string you are working on.  So I suppose my top could go down another 2mm.  However, if you notice the inlaid art-work, I'm afriad it won't go all the way through the wood and lose it by sanding down too far. 

*Just put my hand in the guitar...feels like the top is braced the same as the back.  That's no good.  Guess I'll be ripping off the back and rebracing.  That should be fun...not quite sure how to attack that extra soundhole area...

So questions I would love answered:

How much farther should I take the top down (I'm at 4mm, a bit more than 1/8 of an inch)   

Should I take down the back and put on a nice veneer? (If so, any luthiers have an opinion of that process?) Do I just sand the back veneer totally off, then glue another piece of nice veneer over the crap back wood remaining? And if so, how do I do that exactly...it would need to conform to the existing top...which happens to be slightly warped towards the bottom. Would it be worth it to cut the back off and shave any braces (to typical specs)...maybe even replace the old bracing with something new if it's too ugly down there?  If so, how does one take off a back in a safe manner? I also think I should replace all the binding.

What about a veneer top as well?  Cover up the old pickguard holes...lighting where the saddle, tail-piece and pickguard were...the crack...

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jankymutt
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2005, 07:16:53 PM »

Sorry I can't answer any of your questions, but I just wanted to say that it looks like a fun project and you have to continue to document the endeavor pictorially (is that a word?) .    afro


-Myles
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ashley7219
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2005, 07:16:57 PM »

Well, I can answer the last question regarding the veneer. I think you could probably purchase some really fine veneers on eBay. As for the warped bottom, don't worry about it. Veneers are so thin that you can easily form them to the contour of the top without any difficulty.

As for sounding dead when you thump it, no one has asked yet what type of bracing is used on the instrument. I would suspect that it is ladder braced, hence the lack of resonance. You may want to do a search on 'bracing' to learn more about the importance of this topic in regards to tuning the resonance of the guitar.

Cheers,
Ashley
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didymus21
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2005, 07:47:57 PM »

Well, I can answer the last question regarding the veneer. I think you could probably purchase some really fine veneers on eBay. As for the warped bottom, don't worry about it. Veneers are so thin that you can easily form them to the contour of the top without any difficulty.

As for sounding dead when you thump it, no one has asked yet what type of bracing is used on the instrument. I would suspect that it is ladder braced, hence the lack of resonance. You may want to do a search on 'bracing' to learn more about the importance of this topic in regards to tuning the resonance of the guitar.

Cheers,
Ashley

By the way, I am going to remove the frets, sand down the top a bit and glue on some ebony for a newer looking fingerboard, then re-fret on this fresh piece of ebony.  Anyone care to donate some :)  It wouldn't have to be very thick...Also...Can anyone recommend an excellent guitar repair book?   




By the way:

I'm working on the neck now.  Most of it will need to be done by hand. 



And...so much for binding.  It's coming of as I sand.  I'll just scrape it al off as I do the sides.  The top IS solid...and look how thick it is....my goodness.





Oh my, look at the angle of that headstock.  Can/should I do anything?



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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
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Previously Owned:
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didymus21
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2005, 10:07:02 PM »

Possible backwood choices...

Ziricote




Flamed maple




Koa




Brazilian rosewood




Striped Macassar Ebony


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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2005, 10:19:18 PM »

cool post afro
i like the flame maple look.
good luck
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Frets
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2005, 12:42:05 AM »

ok yeah, i see it now...definitely a solid top. good work so far. as for the fretboard, its kind of cool seeing what looks to be a maple fretboard on that haha. id love to get a guitar like that myself, i just love the shape.
it reminds me of a harp guitar. i wouldnt recommend gluing a veneer to the top really, but go for it on the back. im not sure how youd go about it though, maybe a thin layer of carpenter's glue and a ton of tape in all directions with lots of pressure. and maybe something flat and heavy for working out any glue bubbles under the veneer.  if you plan on changing the fretboard, its a difficult process but it can be done if you go very slowly and carefully. there are lots of places you can order an ebony fretboard for pretty cheap. since its a tailpiece, floating bridge, you have abit more choice on scale length. with floating bridges like that one has, the traditional X brace found in most steel string guitars is not always the best choice. so look into tailpiece bridge bracing patterns abit if you decide you want to rebrace it. a tailpiece bridge puts downward pressure on a top instead of upward tension like on a steelstring with a regular bridge. 
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didymus21
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« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2005, 02:41:51 AM »

if you plan on changing the fretboard, its a difficult process but it can be done if you go very slowly and carefully. there are lots of places you can order an ebony fretboard for pretty cheap. since its a tailpiece, floating bridge, you have abit more choice on scale length. with floating bridges like that one has, the traditional X brace found in most steel string guitars is not always the best choice. so look into tailpiece bridge bracing patterns abit if you decide you want to rebrace it. a tailpiece bridge puts downward pressure on a top instead of upward tension like on a steelstring with a regular bridge. 

Excellent advice, that I will look into it.  As far as the top, I did decide to leave the original piece.  I think I want to give it a yellowish tint dye though....make it look like an old martin or something.  Any comments?


Like this:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/1887Restore/1887Views/188770.jpg
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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
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Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
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didymus21
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2005, 03:34:32 AM »

Can anyone translate?

Accented letters not noted...

"Fabrique a production des instruments musicaux"
"Kremona Bulgare"
"Kazanlik"

Here's the only website I've found on them
http://www.blik.h1.ru/
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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
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Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
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didymus21
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2005, 05:53:02 AM »

Everything I've read claims ladder bracing is the way to go...
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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
Larrivee P-09
Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
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Frets
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2005, 03:52:02 AM »

ive read that leather dyes can work really well for staining a guitar, and theres a large choice of colours. wood stains generally dont have alot of options for different colours.   and yeah...ladder bracing is probably the best option...although ive never worked on a guitar anything like that before haha.
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didymus21
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2005, 06:51:24 AM »

ive read that leather dyes can work really well for staining a guitar, and theres a large choice of colours. wood stains generally dont have alot of options for different colours.   and yeah...ladder bracing is probably the best option...although ive never worked on a guitar anything like that before haha.

ok....what color would look best :)

I've talked to people on the musical instrument maker forum....they say putting on a veneer would be nearly an impossible task for a begineer with limited tools.
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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
Larrivee P-09
Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
Larrivee D-03R, 1997
jimmyd
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2005, 01:49:41 PM »

Can anyone translate?

Accented letters not noted...

"Fabrique a production des instruments musicaux"
"Kremona Bulgare"
"Kazanlik"

Here's the only website I've found on them
http://www.blik.h1.ru/

It translates to " Hairpulling project for crazy yankee"  ^_^
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didymus21
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2005, 07:19:29 PM »

Ok...here's some pics of the inside...I think I will be taking the back off...give me a chance to clean this things up...and shave some braces.  Based on the photos...does anyone know how I might take the neck off?

Neck Block



Tailblock



Lower Bout



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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
Larrivee P-09
Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
Larrivee D-03R, 1997
didymus21
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2005, 10:19:37 PM »

Should I keep the fretboard as it is, or sand down and glue an ebony strip replacement on top?



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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
Larrivee P-09
Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
Larrivee D-03R, 1997
Frets
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2005, 02:19:02 AM »

well from the pics its really hard to tell how the neck is attached...but it COULD be a dovetail. if thats the case, you'd have to steam the neck out. thats easier to do without the fretboard on, and removing it usually involves butchering the fretboard. i believe frets.com might have a couple of articles on that.

heres a good article on it...bookmark   this site...its probably the most valuable repair site out there.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html

neck reset:  http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00028Reset/00028reset01.html

fretboard removal (if you need to do it):  http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/NewFingerBoard/85hd28board.html
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didymus21
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2005, 02:45:29 AM »

well from the pics its really hard to tell how the neck is attached...but it COULD be a dovetail. if thats the case, you'd have to steam the neck out. thats easier to do without the fretboard on, and removing it usually involves butchering the fretboard. i believe frets.com might have a couple of articles on that.

heres a good article on it...bookmark   this site...its probably the most valuable repair site out there.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/pagelist.html

neck reset:  http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00028Reset/00028reset01.html

fretboard removal (if you need to do it):  http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/NewFingerBoard/85hd28board.html

A dovetail on a cheapo instrument? I guess I didn't realize they did that  I was thinking it'd be more like this:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/BCRIchReset/bcrichreset1.html
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Mcilroy A30C, 2005
Yamaha FG-512, 1978
Larrivee LV-05E, 2005

Previously Owned:
Larrivee L-10 Special Edition, 2002
Larrivee Classical, 1977
Larrivee P-09
Larrivee OM-05 custom
Larrivee OM-03
Larrivee D-03R, 1997
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