Forum VI (based on Forum III) any interest?

Started by mike in lytle, May 07, 2021, 10:22:39 PM

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Quote from: mike in lytle on June 04, 2021, 09:18:47 PM
The video is a tiny bit music and mostly commentary. Useless for comparison to our proposed guitar.
Mike


I stand corrected.  I'll go back under my rock and continue to watch this process from there.

For reference on the Sitka vs. Moonwood debate that seems to be gaining heat but little light....

http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=51530.0
Remember when the music came from wooden boxes strung with silver wires...

OM-40 SB
Forum VI - LS-03 Moonwood/Walnut
Seagull S6

These are simply some of the personal reasons I'm getting so excited about this guitar, and it relates in part to the Moonwood vs Sitka debate that seems forever ongoing and relevant to these specs. When I bought my first Larrivee it was from Wildwood Music, one of their special run LV-03 RE-IAS. It blew me away after having played numerous Martins and Taylors and a few other notable guitars. The Italian Spruce and Indian Rosewood combination created a very seductive sound to my ears and from my very own technique. A few years later I again was seduced by a new Larrivee, an OM-40M. While I can't attribute any special qualities imparted by the spruce top, the combination of the mahogany and the new scalloped bracing seemed to particularly influence how it's voice fell upon my ears. When I decided to gift one of these guitars to our son, I found myself in a very real quandary. I was happy with either, but wanted to give him the better one and wanted it to be a surprise. I'd play one, then the other, back and forth, also realizing that I would be keeping only one. A lot of my choice to gift him the one with the Italian Spruce had to do with that Spruce top. It was phenomenal in combination with the other attributes of that guitar. Which is not to in any way say that the OM-40M lacked anything. I still have and play it regularly. And my son will often play it and his first response is always a "wow", and not in preference but in simple appreciation. The bracing pattern just seemed to refine some of the sounds this guitar is capable of producing. And the warmth of the Mahogany just oozes from the notes. We all know it's a complicated thing, and hard to define. And incredibly individual.
And so here we are now, possibly on the verge of completing a process of specifying, by committee, our very own Forum VI guitar. And here's where my personal excitement comes. The possibility of a Moonwood top over a walnut (sort of between EIR and Mahogany) and possibly with the newer scalloped bracing. It just seems like the best of all worlds...to me. Heaven help me, but who knows, I may never bond with this thing we are co-creating. But it's a chance I'm willing, and excited, to take. There's a whole lot to like about this emerging guitar.  
Larrivee LS-03WL Forum VI Limited
Larrivee OM-40M
Larrivee O-01W
Martin 000-16
Washburn C80S
Espana Classical (made in Finland)
Eastman MD 504 Mandolin
Epiphone Olympic Solid Body Electric (1967)
Larrivee F-33 Mandolin (8/1/2008)
Soliver Pancake Mandolin
Larrivee A-33 (8/21/2009)

Quote from: Riverbend on June 05, 2021, 06:32:11 AM
And so here we are now, possibly on the verge of completing a process of specifying, by committee, our very own Forum VI guitar.
Well. . . . . . just one more thing . . . . . .
I have been trying to figure out exactly why we have a 4" deep guitar.
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Quote from: mike in lytle on June 05, 2021, 07:48:47 AM
Well. . . . . . just one more thing . . . . . .
I have been trying to figure out exactly why we have a 4" deep guitar.
Mike
I must've missed something. When did the LS shrink in depth from 4.25"? Good question Mike.
Larrivee LS-03WL Forum VI Limited
Larrivee OM-40M
Larrivee O-01W
Martin 000-16
Washburn C80S
Espana Classical (made in Finland)
Eastman MD 504 Mandolin
Epiphone Olympic Solid Body Electric (1967)
Larrivee F-33 Mandolin (8/1/2008)
Soliver Pancake Mandolin
Larrivee A-33 (8/21/2009)

When did the 4" get specified?  Must have missed that myself.  Was thinking 4.25"

Quote from: Riverbend on June 05, 2021, 08:06:39 AM
I must've missed something. When did the LS shrink in depth from 4.25"? Good question Mike.
(Note - I have edited this post with minor changes)
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we change anything. All I am trying to do is figure stuff out, because I want to know.
The Forum LS guitars did not shrink, rather, the body depths have grown over time to what we see today.

Here are a few things that I now know.

1. I asked John did the LS dimensions come from the old "Lite" series.
John said "No. The LS came from the early L-3X Series. (L-30, L-31, L-35, L-38) All classicals. It is Jean's classical body. "
So, that question was answered. I had thought the LS came into being as a shrunk down L-body.

2. When the Forum III was first being discussed (it wasn't called Forum III yet), it came up right away that standard depth dimensions in 2008 were not the dimensions of the original LS. The original LS was 4 inches deep. However, there is a disconnect for me because the LS was talked about as a discontinued model, which implies that there was a steel string LS earlier.

3. And there indeed was..... in later 2009 ST got himself a 1999 LS-05. ST had played a Forum III at the factory, I think it was Danny's, but did not get a F-III himself. ST posted the LS-05 dimensions and specs, and it was 4 inches deep. ST is still around and he is the Wiki page maintainer (we are on it now!). I was very lucky to find out about this particular LS-05, as the thread may have mistakenly been included on the Wiki page as a reference for the Forum III specs, but the thread had nothing to do with the Forum III, or LS guitars at all. It was actually about whether ST should buy an OM-03R.

4. So, before 1999, there was an LS produced that has the same dims as what the Forum VI will have. HOWEVER, when ST started a different thread about the LS-05, he included a link to the archived Larrivee site from April 22, 1998, where you can dig into the specs at that time. Dang near all the guitars were 4 inches deep.
http://web.archive.org/web/19980422042828/http://larrivee.com/

5. The Forum III folks decided to keep the original LS body depth, rather than let it grow, and make it a 12 fret.
So the only thing I don't know is when the original LS steel string guitar (which the F-III and F-VI are descended from) was in production. I think it started in 1991.

The pic is ST's LS-05 and his C38 Larrivee classical.
Mike

Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Ummmm, sorry to be a bit thick, but I'm still not sure if we are talking about this Forum guitar being 4" or 4.25".

The archived specs for the FIII indicate 4.25 and that's what I thought we were going with.

4" or 4-1/4" is pretty much above my pay grade, experience-wise. My OM-40, for comparison, is 3-5/8" at the neck join and 4-5/16" at the heel.
Larrivee LS-03WL Forum VI Limited
Larrivee OM-40M
Larrivee O-01W
Martin 000-16
Washburn C80S
Espana Classical (made in Finland)
Eastman MD 504 Mandolin
Epiphone Olympic Solid Body Electric (1967)
Larrivee F-33 Mandolin (8/1/2008)
Soliver Pancake Mandolin
Larrivee A-33 (8/21/2009)

Quote from: jazzereh on June 05, 2021, 10:06:02 AM
Ummmm, sorry to be a bit thick, but I'm still not sure if we are talking about this Forum guitar being 4" or 4.25".
The archived specs for the FIII indicate 4.25 and that's what I thought we were going with.
You aren't thick, and we have always had the F-VI at 4.0. See post #102 and #109.
Also, see #117.
You can certainly post where you found the 4.25 spec.
Let me politely ask a question of you, since you have said you are looking for an F-III in mahogany to help build your collection of Canada Larrivees.
If you found an F-III, would you have a problem with it being 4.0 inches? Because that is what it is.
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Quote from: mike in lytle on June 05, 2021, 11:50:59 AM
You aren't thick, and we have always had the F-VI at 4.0. See post #102 and #109.
Also, see #117.
You can certainly post where you found the 4.25 spec.
Let me politely ask a question of you, since you have said you are looking for an F-III in mahogany to help build your collection of Canada Larrivees.
If you found an F-III, would you have a problem with it being 4.0 inches? Because that is what it is.
Mike


Firstly, no I would not have a problem with 4" but I have an OM that is 4.25" and it's very comfortable.

However, in the heading 'Larrivee 'Forum' guitars' that is at the top of this forum, there is a link to the Forum guitar history and then in the section for the specs for the FIII there is a link to the specs for that LS guitar body and it lists 4.25" as the body depth.  So, since this is to be an LS, as was the FIII, that is what I thought it would be for the FVI.  So, was the FIII not a 425" body?  That's where I was coming from


Quote from: jazzereh on June 05, 2021, 12:52:52 PM
Firstly, no I would not have a problem with 4" but I have an OM that is 4.25" and it's very comfortable.

However, in the heading 'Larrivee 'Forum' guitars' that is at the top of this forum, there is a link to the Forum guitar history and then in the section for the specs for the FIII there is a link to the specs for that LS guitar body and it lists 4.25" as the body depth.  So, since this is to be an LS, as was the FIII, that is what I thought it would be for the FVI.  So, was the FIII not a 425" body?  That's where I was coming from
Ok, I know the page you are talking about, I looked at that too.
The Forum III was 4.0.

ANYHOW, a few hours ago, I sent an email to John, asking about the depth we could have, and his response is that the guitar will be built to whatever spec is current now, and that body depth is not a selectable option. So the F-VI will be made to current specs. We know that Notable made an LS run just a few years ago at 4.25, and Fraiser1 measured his to verify.
John said he would see what a recent LS was finished at and let us know, he said tolerances come into play as well.
So we will know about that, and I am relieved the issue is settled for us by Larrivee.
Can't believe the stuff we learn every day... and John is answering emails on a Saturday.

(edit)... maybe Tuffy or someone can measure the F-III and verify since I am looking at numbers but measuring the F-III would verify.
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Since Larrivee (John Jr.) has told us that the LS body is the old Larrivee classical body, I have another question about body depth/shape.

Classical guitars (including Larrivee's classicals?) tend to have a body that is almost as deep at the neck joint as it is at the heel; steel string guitars (including current L bodies) have a curvature to the back which gets a bit shallower at the neck joint; this includes OM's and dreadnoughts.

I have a '79 Larrivee L-19 (standard full size L body) that is similar to a classical; the body has almost no curvature to it and is almost as deep at the neck pocket as at the bottom of the lower bout - IOW, older L bodies were shaped similar to classicals.

Hence (finally!) my question: Will the LS body be more like a classical, with little curvature, or more like a modern L with more curvature (and shallower at the neck heel)? Someone could also measure their Forum III to answer this as well...

Maybe you can pass this one on to John Jr., too!  :bowdown:

:thumb
2021 C-03R TE left-handed
Larrivee owner since 1992

Quote from: Mikeymac on June 05, 2021, 09:14:32 PM
Since Larrivee (John Jr.) has told us that the LS body is the old Larrivee classical body, I have another question about body depth/shape.
There are no more questions.. see following post. Not gonna labor over it any more.
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

All,
Was texting with my neighbor Danny (F-III #1) who is an honorable Forum Guru, and had asked Danny to please measure upper bout, lower bout, and depth dimensions of his own F-III
Answer.. 11-1/4 x 15 x 4.
That is the LS original spec, the upper bout is within Larrivee tolerance. The old spec says 11.00.
I am happy with this, it doesn't prove anything other than the spec for the F-III was followed. Pretty much.
Anyhow, not to ignore or discount Mikey's question..... I will continue.
The F-VI will be built to current Larrivee specs, and if 4-1/4 is the body depth, I am very happy with that. Not just happy. I am convinced that last 1/4 inch is going to contribute to our overall happiness, as well as performance of the guitar. The Larrivee specifications have not evolved over time without good reason.

That all being said, and even though a few of us have not returned solidified opinions on bracing, I would like to revise the specs for the F-VI, post them for the group for comment and then pass them to Larrivee. We have a baseline, and we should not pursue issues of binding or other cosmetic trims. We have a baseline guitar and I humbly suggest we go to the next step.
Opinions requested.
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Preferences:

1)  Topwood - Sitka.
2)  Cutaway - None.
3)  Bracing - No preference.
4)  Rosette - Walnut.
5)  Pickup - None.

I would probably add a K&K or JJB soundboard transducer.  That's what I have in the Rainsong (K&K) and my Larrivee Parlor (JJB).

Quote from: AZLiberty on June 05, 2021, 11:02:06 PM
Preferences:

1)  Topwood - Sitka.
2)  Cutaway - None.
3)  Bracing - No preference.
4)  Rosette - Walnut.
5)  Pickup - None.

I would probably add a K&K or JJB soundboard transducer.  That's what I have in the Rainsong (K&K) and my Larrivee Parlor (JJB).
All noted and thank you for the update. Please look at older posts about the K&K (or JJB). On the F-III, the bridge plate could not accommodate the transducers under the saddle, an extension may need to be added by your tech. The bridge plate configuration won't be changed for our guitar, per Larrivee. I feel your pain. But who knows, when the 40 bracing is stuck in there, Larrivee may have mercy on us.
Mike
Mike
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Updated specs for Forum VI
This is updated after discussions about woods and bracing.
I thought we should give Larrivee a lot of space, so I don't get deep into details.
Please have a look and comment yay/nay. If I missed something important, let us know.
We have a really nice guitar.

*LS-03 body style (built to current specs)
*Either Sitka or Moonwood top (Larrivee option)
*American Walnut back and sides
*Hybrid bracing (40-series)
*12 fret
*Regular scale (25.5)
*1-3/4 nut width
*2-1/4 string spacing at bridge
*Maple binding
*Fret markers on maple binding
*Solid wood rosette (to match walnut)
*Roman "VI" inlay 12th fret, blank fret board
*Inside label - Forum Guitar VI x of xx
*Standard -03 tuners
*Detached tortoise pickguard (loose in case)
*No cost option - left handed
*Extra cost options - venetian cut (LSV body), 5 pickup options
*Standard hardshell case

Available pickups
1. Stagepro Element single-source
2. Stagepro Anthem dual-source
3. Anthem no-cut dual-source
4. Lyric no-cut single-source
5. iMix no-cut dual-source
Larrivee OM-03, OM-03 laurel, OM-50, L-03 laurel, LSV-03 walnut (Forum VI)

Yay
Nice guitar!
Thanks again for all your time and effort Mike!
Rich
Larrivee LS-03WL Forum VI Limited
Larrivee OM-40M
Larrivee O-01W
Martin 000-16
Washburn C80S
Espana Classical (made in Finland)
Eastman MD 504 Mandolin
Epiphone Olympic Solid Body Electric (1967)
Larrivee F-33 Mandolin (8/1/2008)
Soliver Pancake Mandolin
Larrivee A-33 (8/21/2009)

 :+1: This is going to be special.
Looking ahead to a bunch of happy pickers!

Great job of cat herding, Mike!
Remember when the music came from wooden boxes strung with silver wires...

OM-40 SB
Forum VI - LS-03 Moonwood/Walnut
Seagull S6

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