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Author Topic: Tuner problems. Thoughts/experiences?  (Read 1503 times)
flatlander
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« on: February 24, 2017, 04:21:50 AM »

I got a custom D-40R a few months ago. It came with the Larrivee single open back tuners. Well, they don't hold in tune. I've given guitar plenty of time to adjust, plus they not only go out after time just in case, but while I'm playing I have to tweak a lot. Any thoughts? Screws are snug.
If I don't figure anything out I plan on getting the good ole Schallers Larrivee says are direct replacements. The Gold Schallers would be kinda cool as they would match the gold Evo frets they kindly put on for me, and match the wood inlay on headstock, but don't particularly want to spend money if I don't have too.   Thanks, matt

http://www.larrivee.com/shop/open-back-tuner-181-gear-ratio    what came with guitar

http://www.larrivee.com/shop/schaller-161-gold-tuners-set-of-6   Schaller replacements.

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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2017, 04:48:25 AM »

If all is snug and strung up correctly then replace them.Send the originals back to Larrivee and maybe they can figure it out.
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2017, 05:16:02 AM »

If they're ALL giving you the same problem, it's less likely the tuners. A nut that's cut too slim can cause tuning issues. Adding too many winds to the posts when changing the strings can also create problems.
I'd put fresh strings on and go from there.

BTW, who put evo frets on the guitar? If it's used and worn enough to have new frets installed, it may have had a new nut put in and your problems sound like nut problems.  Also, if it's a brand new guitar, a new nut can sometimes behave like that.  One bad tuner isn't uncommon. But, for them all to be bad is far less likely.
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2017, 05:42:12 AM »

Flatlander,
Be cautious with your planned tuner swap.  I don't think the Schaller golds you are thinking about are a drop in replacement for the Larrivee open back tuners.  I believe the Schallers are a drop in replacement for the standard Larrivee closed back tuners.  A few years ago I replaced the standard Larrivee tuners on my 1986 OM-09 with Larrivee open back tuners and I had to purchase and install peghead bushings.  What I am saying is that the peghead holes are different for the standard tuners and the open back tuners.  The open back tuners require a smaller peghead hole so that to swap to the closed back tuners, either Larrivee or Schaller, would require drilling out the peghead holes, not something I would want to do.  If I was you, and I was going to upgrade my open back tuners with anything I would go to Waverly open back tuners which I believe use the same diameter peghead hole.  I may be wrong in all this but check it out before you act.  That being said, I have never had a problem with the Larrivee open bacvk tuners and like them a lot.
Dave
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flatlander
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2017, 05:10:47 PM »

Thanks for that! Yea I was being dumb. My long time builder friend will be here in a few weeks and I'll have him check everything out. If can't find anything I'll look at Waverly and Grovers to start. Appreciate it.
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flatlander
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2017, 05:51:21 PM »

If they're ALL giving you the same problem, it's less likely the tuners. A nut that's cut too slim can cause tuning issues. Adding too many winds to the posts when changing the strings can also create problems.
I'd put fresh strings on and go from there.

BTW, who put evo frets on the guitar? If it's used and worn enough to have new frets installed, it may have had a new nut put in and your problems sound like nut problems.  Also, if it's a brand new guitar, a new nut can sometimes behave like that.  One bad tuner isn't uncommon. But, for them all to be bad is far less likely.
Thanks. I'll double check nut, or actually my good buddy who builds guitars is coming in a few weeks. I'll have him check it all out. I guess you're thinking nut grabbing string. I never hear them "jump" but definitely will check out. I go for 3 wraps and hold tension on string while turning tuner to wrap so they are tight, and that how I've always done with no problems.  The guitar I got brand new from Larrivee. Custom. D-40. I got it custom so I could get 1 3/4 nut. So while at it got the Alpine Spruce top, The Maple leaves wooden inlays (pretty cheap for inlay and the wood is more subtle than other inlays) on headstock. I asked if they would fret it with the Gold Evo fret wire and they said if I sent it to them they would do it at no extra charge which made me very happy. I've had stainless steel put on most of my other guitars. I was afraid to ask for that but the Gold Evo almost as hard stainless. Appreciate your ideas! I'll have Mark look it over. I called Jason at Notable and he said he hasn't heard of problems with those tuners. So maybe we'll find something. Otherwise I'll look for open back replacements, maybe waverly. Thanks!
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eded
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2017, 05:56:47 PM »

Thanks. I'll double check nut, or actually my good buddy who builds guitars is coming in a few weeks. I'll have him check it all out. I guess you're thinking nut grabbing string. I never hear them "jump" but definitely will check out. I go for 3 wraps and hold tension on string while turning tuner to wrap so they are tight, and that how I've always done with no problems.  The guitar I got brand new from Larrivee. Custom. D-40. I got it custom so I could get 1 3/4 nut. So while at it got the Alpine Spruce top, The Maple leaves wooden inlays (pretty cheap for inlay and the wood is more subtle than other inlays) on headstock. I asked if they would fret it with the Gold Evo fret wire and they said if I sent it to them they would do it at no extra charge which made me very happy. I've had stainless steel put on most of my other guitars. I was afraid to ask for that but the Gold Evo almost as hard stainless. Appreciate your ideas! I'll have Mark look it over. I called Jason at Notable and he said he hasn't heard of problems with those tuners. So maybe we'll find something. Otherwise I'll look for open back replacements, maybe waverly. Thanks!

How long ago did you get it?  If not long, it may just still be settling in...  to itself, and your localized environment.

Ed
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2017, 07:17:13 PM »

Another thought.
Could it be that the string ball ends are not seating against the bridge plate and are creeping after installing strings.  I always seat them against the bridge plate with a good solid tug while holding the end pin when installing strings.  If you have good solid contact at the bridge plate I have found I can change strings and play without any "settling in" time for new strings.  I have changed strings and immediately played a set.  I have found most of the so called "settling in" time for new strings is really the ball ends creeping into place against the bridge plate and if the bridge pin size is slightly off it exacerbate the problem so as to take even days of continuous fine tuning.  Just a thought.
Dave
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flatlander
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2017, 08:19:08 PM »

Thanks. Yea, I do the same, I put the ball end in just a little, then keep tension on it while shove it down with peg, then tug it again.
I think strings stretch a little though. But doesn't take long.  Of course old strings don't tune well, lose intonation, because of uneven wear across string. I do want some new pegs anyway though. I don't like the white plastic ones it came with. Larrivee doesn't have the ebony ones on there site anymore. What exactly are the "composite" ones made of? I'll get some from somewhere.  I'm going to change strings here a minute so I'll pay extra attention to those things you mentioned but I've had many guitars, including 4 Larrivee's right now, and they hold tune fine.  The National hold fine, even the Mandolin and Octave Mando althought they have no pins. Pretty sure it's something with guitar itself or tuners. The strings I use are all the same on the different guitars as I buy them in bulk.  This will be I think the 4th change for the D-40. Thanks
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George
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2017, 08:19:43 PM »

I have used the Schaller Grand Tune to replace the vintage open back tuners.  They will drop in for Grover Sta-Tite as well as the Larrivee open back engraved tuners that both have come on 40 series guitars.  The Schaller Grand Tune are way smoother and hold their tune excellently.  Hard to find and will cost $100+ per set, but very much worth it...
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George
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2017, 08:28:26 PM »

How long ago did you get it?  If not long, it may just still be settling in...  to itself, and your localized environment.

Ed
End of September. Yea I had that thought which is why I'm just now thinking about new tuners. 5 months almost, should be plenty of time I would think.
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flatlander
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2017, 08:30:24 PM »

I have used the Schaller Grand Tune to replace the vintage open back tuners.  They will drop in for Grover Sta-Tite as well as the Larrivee open back engraved tuners that both have come on 40 series guitars.  The Schaller Grand Tune are way smoother and hold their tune excellently.  Hard to find and will cost $100+ per set, but very much worth it...
Very cool to know an exact model to look for. And yes another 30 or 40 bucks well worth it. I'm looking where I might get now! Thanks.
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flatlander
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 09:53:37 PM »

I ordered those Schaller Grandtunes. They sound great after reviews and they look great. Got the Gold which will match the frets and
wood headstock inlay. Regardless if I find something else going on with tuners, all reports are that these are great. Thanks George! Also got some rosewood bridge pins for this guitar and some ebony for the Pete Anderson which had brass ones in it when I got new. The bridge pins, made of all kinds of different woods only 6/7 bucks! Luthiers Mercantile.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16938927_10208212098841253_7697961081677990855_n.jpg?oh=9df869234ac0a1c4bf1beaee884dc222&oe=59274E69   Hopefully this link will take you to the guitar's picture so you can see how nice the gold will look.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 11:24:43 PM »

Oh Man, that is some sweet peghead, and it will look nice with the gold Schaller grand tuners.
Dave
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flatlander
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2017, 04:26:46 AM »

Oh Man, that is some sweet peghead, and it will look nice with the gold Schaller grand tuners.
Dave
Only 75 bucks for the inlay. The cheapest one they have but I like the more subtle wood look anyway. It was an old one they did for a special edition deal, but I asked and they said they could do it on mine.  I'll take pictures after I get tuners on it. I played it tonight at acoustic jam and it just would not stay in tune worth a hoot. Do you play a Webber instrument or is name related to something else? I have a Webber mandolin that's a sweety.
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2017, 05:07:54 AM »

No I don't own a Webber guitar or other stringed instrument.  I wished I did.  I only share the name.  I look forward to seeing the photos with the new tuners on your guitar.  If I remember right, the maple leaf inlay was originally an 03 special run for the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver through Tom Lee Music and they had small maple leaf fret board markers too.  It seems to me there was also a special in the 10 series that was way more blingy that I don't like nearly as much.
Dave
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2017, 10:45:56 PM »

I got a custom D-40R a few months ago. It came with the Larrivee single open back tuners. Well, they don't hold in tune. I've given guitar plenty of time to adjust, plus they not only go out after time just in case, but while I'm playing I have to tweak a lot. Any thoughts? Screws are snug.
If I don't figure anything out I plan on getting the good ole Schallers Larrivee says are direct replacements. The Gold Schallers would be kinda cool as they would match the gold Evo frets they kindly put on for me, and match the wood inlay on headstock, but don't particularly want to spend money if I don't have too.   Thanks, matt

http://www.larrivee.com/shop/open-back-tuner-181-gear-ratio    what came with guitar

http://www.larrivee.com/shop/schaller-161-gold-tuners-set-of-6   Schaller replacements.



I'm late to the party, but a couple of thoughts...

First, if the guitar is that new, the tuners should be under warranty, and you shouldn't be buying a new set of tuners for a guitar that's under one year old (my thoughts, anyway).

Second, those Schaller's aren't what I would call direct replacements, since you will be drilling different holes in the headstock for the tuner screws...

...don't know what you've decided to do, but I'd try to find out if Larrivee will cover/replace these under warranty, and/or get direct replacement open back Waverly's or Grover's, etc. Personally I like the open back tuners because they keep the headstock (and the guitar) lighter than solid tuners.
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flatlander
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2017, 04:52:21 AM »


I'm late to the party, but a couple of thoughts...

First, if the guitar is that new, the tuners should be under warranty, and you shouldn't be buying a new set of tuners for a guitar that's under one year old (my thoughts, anyway).

Second, those Schaller's aren't what I would call direct replacements, since you will be drilling different holes in the headstock for the tuner screws...

...don't know what you've decided to do, but I'd try to find out if Larrivee will cover/replace these under warranty, and/or get direct replacement open back Waverly's or Grover's, etc. Personally I like the open back tuners because they keep the headstock (and the guitar) lighter than solid tuners.
Naw, I mentioned along the way here that, yea, those tuners in original link weren't right. (and that was dumb) I ordered these Schallers' Grand Tunes.    https://www.schaller-electronic.com/hp514590/GrandTune-superior-tuning-machines.htm
 All reports are that they are really great and I checked all the dimensions and they DO match right up. Plus George here has used them as replacements. As far as warrenty, I'll probably blow that off because Larrivee I'm sure, at best and after debate, would just want to send another set of the same ones. These really are a cut above and I want them regardless. Thanks.
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2017, 09:03:43 PM »

Those Schaller Grand Tunes look nice! Lots of finish options, too.
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2017, 06:45:49 PM »

I could buy one bad tuner ... but a whole set?  I would look somewhere else for the problem.  I have become very regimented when changing strings, and I no longer have any tuning problems whatsoever.
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