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Author Topic: CITES screwup  (Read 5818 times)
ducktrapper
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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 09:36:06 PM »

I thought it was "I'm not happy until you are not happy..."

There's a difference?
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B0WIE
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« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 09:59:36 PM »

I attempted to research the supposed industry-crushing ramifications of a CITES screw-up mentioned in the original post and the only return I could find was this thread.  Unless one is prepared to cite a source, I think it's very irresponsible to make claims that thousands of jobs have been lost in relation to this.  This thread is now coming up in search engine returns if you search CITEs and Rosewood regulations.  It was the 13th return for "cites rosewood guitar".  I think that's a real bad look for the forum...
 
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 10:47:20 PM »

So, the new CITES regulations state NO rosewood of any type can be shipped across international borders without cites documentation and fees.  The problem is, the government does not yet have the documents necessary for shipping available.  So, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee, Gibson, Fender and all the rest cannot ship their guitars overseas. 
...

And foreign guitar makers cannot export their rosewood guitars to the USA.  I strongly suspect more rosewood guitars are imported into the USA than are exported from the USA.

...
There have been thousands of layoffs in the guitar industry.  Some of these companies are in dire financial straits.
...

Evidence please.
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George
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 11:15:18 PM »

I don't think the new CITES regulations mean Cannot be imported or exported, just Not without the proper paperwork and that is going to cause a lot of delays...
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George
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 11:42:06 PM »

I don't think the new CITES regulations mean Cannot be imported or exported, just Not without the proper paperwork and that is going to cause a lot of delays...

And I don't believe thousands have been laid off as a result.  I'm not even convinced the process isn't in place to get the paperwork.  The wait time stated is no longer than that stated for a passport for a person.   And they usually come quicker than they say.

I don't know the process for companies s, but the application for individuals is on the Fish and Wildlife site.

Ed
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2017, 12:30:06 AM »

it take's 10 min. to fill out the form and about a week to get the cert..I'm sure there are different rule's for companies using rosewood.We've been thru this before with Brazilian rw.
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 12:59:39 AM »

it take's 10 min. to fill out the form and about a week to get the cert..I'm sure there are different rule's for companies using rosewood.We've been thru this before with Brazilian rw.

Ah, but the certification is not yet available.  Hence the rub Rob.
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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 02:29:19 AM »

Ah, but the certification is not yet available.  Hence the rub Rob.

Why, after several requests, are you refusing to name a source for this info?  I'm not saying that the above is untrue, but you did make earlier claims that smell of wild fabrications. It would be responsible of you to provide a source or evidence.  There is no reason that would need to remain a secret (which is why this all comes across as distorted 3rd hand gossip).
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 04:19:17 AM »

I assumed it was the standard paper work thats been around for years.Simple form you can get from Fish and Wildlife.
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2017, 07:45:57 AM »

Why, after several requests, are you refusing to name a source for this info?  I'm not saying that the above is untrue, but you did make earlier claims that smell of wild fabrications. It would be responsible of you to provide a source or evidence.  There is no reason that would need to remain a secret (which is why this all comes across as distorted 3rd hand gossip).

I'm wondering the same thing.
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2017, 08:55:12 AM »

As a matter of interest and to post an example, this latest restriction has affected what I can buy from StewMac today VS a month ago.  I live in Canada and have purchased all kinds of stuff including wood products from StewMac.  Anything made of Rosewood, which I assume is EIR, was available to me as recently as a month ago.  A few weeks ago, I purchased a slotted rosewood fretboard from them with no issues.  It looks like I got it just under the wire.  Now, when I go on their website, anything "rosewood" has the disclaimer "cannot be shipped outside the USA".  So, for example, any of their guitar kits with rosewood are not available to me.  Same goes for any of their rosewood fingerboards for guitar, mando, ukulele, et al.  Even acoustic guitar bridges can no longer be shipped to me if they are rosewood.  Yet, ebony bridges can be exported.  That really sucks.

They also state that their ukulele kits can no longer be shipped outside USA.  I assume it's because the mahogany used in those kits are from South America and they probably have a bunch of them already made and in their stock.  So they have decided to just not go through the hoops and hassle of exporting those wood products outside the country.

Yet, they have "African Mahogany" neck blanks and back/side sets that can still be shipped outside the USA.  I assume those are Khaya.  Anything they offer in terms of kits or simply wood that is Maple, Koa, or even Ebony don't have the disclaimer.  I assume the ebony they are talking about is "African Ebony" Macassa?  Otherwise, I'm guessing the same restrictions would apply.

It's all so convoluted and stupid.  I can understand stopping the cutting of these trees at the location and not allowing any more cutting.  But once the wood is cut and in the hands of those who make things from it, what is the point of preventing them from carrying on with their craft, utilizing and ultimately selling the products they anticipated selling when they cut or obtained the wood?  The damn wood is already cut.  You can't put it back in the forest so you might as well make something useful or beautiful from it.

To my simple mind, the whole CITES initiative's purpose is to discourage or hopefully stop the illegal harvesting of protected species whether they be trees or oysters or elephants or walruses or whatever.  I'm all for that.  My guess is most guitar makers with any credibility are aware of all of those noble intentions and just want to carry on their business without having to worry about restrictions to marketing their instruments simply because they happened to obtain wood that was OK as recently as a few weeks ago and now may be restricted. 
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2017, 09:26:11 AM »

I wonder what will be the approach with older guitars with no papers? People travel and carry them. And all the new guitars already in shops, without papers respecting these new regulations?


It means you will receive a cites "passport" for your guitar when you buy it.  You will carry that when you travel with your instrument.



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JOYCEfromNS
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« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2017, 01:43:07 PM »

So will this restrict the 50th Anni Guitar to the USA only 
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »

I assumed it was the standard paper work thats been around for years.Simple form you can get from Fish and Wildlife.

No, it is not.
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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2017, 03:46:13 PM »

So will this restrict the 50th Anni Guitar to the USA only 

According to Jean, they expect cites to be available by the time the 50th models are available. 
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AZLiberty
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2017, 01:23:43 AM »

And don't forget rosewood bridges, fretboards and headstock.  As for layoffs, I believe Taylor and Martin have virtually closed their Mexican facilities because all guitars made there must stay there ..... so why make them.

I have already seen 100 series Taylor guitars with ebony fretboards and bridges, (and black plastic headstock overlays).

The import permit is $100 per instrument.  It's a lot cheaper to simply substitute other wood (ebony) or manmade materials (richelite) for rosewood bridges and fretboards than pay the permit fee.

The majority of Martin's Mexican production are the X series, which do not contain rosewood.  The "rosewood" headstock overlay is HPL like the body.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2017, 05:03:45 AM »

Sounds like to me to be a good argument for not closing a Canadian factory, or even reopening one especially for non US and overseas markets.  Hmmmm ... did Larrivee ever make guitars in Canada???
Dave
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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2017, 05:59:33 AM »

Sounds like to me to be a good argument for not closing a Canadian factory, or even reopening one especially for non US and overseas markets.  Hmmmm ... did Larrivee ever make guitars in Canada???
Dave

You all know this is an international treaty, right?  It isn't just a US thing.  It applies to all the countries signed onto the treaty.

Wow..  I guess we are truly in the age of misinformation.

Ed
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2017, 12:16:34 PM »

It is international treaty, but rules seem to have particularities for continents, and they seem to be more strict in the US. Plus, the guitars tend to come from US to Europe, and less the other way around. Hence, the bad effect on Guitar builders in US. It is always interesting to hear educated views on this topic. I would expect not to affect particular cases traveling with the guitar, but for the moment I did not find something relevant on this.

Reverb's comments on this:
https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2017, 03:16:28 PM »

Sounds like to me to be a good argument for not closing a Canadian factory, or even reopening one especially for non US and overseas markets. 
I too often wonder if there is some regret (business-wise) over that decision. This issue of CITES and the Cdn $ exchange rate which was about par at the time, since dropping almost a third.

It is international treaty, but rules seem to have particularities for continents, and they seem to be more strict in the US.
This certainly seems to be the case in Canada. From the outside looking into the Guitar Business it would now make sense for Larrivée to produce guitars in the US for the USA only and have the Canadian operation supply the world. Seems living and working in paradise ( Oxnard) has a cost  blush
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