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Big Martin
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« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2005, 11:16:51 PM »

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Big Martin, I believe you. I hope my post above didn't imply otherwise. ...

I haven't heard it, nor have I tried yet. But I believe in different sensitivities for different ears, and other senses as well.

....Let's talk donuts now.
I have no problem with you or anyone who cares to discuss something.  You're cool, el guitana.  Thanks.

Those who can't discuss or choose to replace discussion with ineffectual efforts to be belligerent is where I begin to become curious as to intent and even intellectual capacity.  I mean two or three efforts to discuss met with ignorant insistence is right around my normal limit on such silliness.

I used to love donuts, these days only have maybe one every two months or so.  

el guitana, thanks for your comments and discussion...
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« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2005, 11:38:50 PM »

Thanks Duck.

Do you think there's a different motivation in America than Canada?

Serious question here.   All people are alike but some cultural differences do apply.  Is there a cultural difference in values?  Like john Candy said, "there isn't a locked door in all of Canada"

Micarta is certainly a metaphor for  synthetic or falseness.  Guess that's why the topic went this way.   What I think I'm hearing is a company like Martin will resort to a synthetic for both environmental and economic reasons while Larrivee is still close to the land and won't.

A cultural difference expressed in materials that make guitars?

Just a thought.   With alot of holes in it.

cheers,

born in '53................naked.
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ducktrapper
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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2005, 12:06:59 AM »

Peter - Actually I doubt that Canadians and Americans are that much different when running businesses. Sam Sniderman of Sam the Record Man was one of the biggest pr*cks I ever had the pleasure of working for. But that doesn't explain or stop people from being different. I would guess that being a young company without Martin's automatic advantage, the NAME, they have defined to themselves what constitutes a good and valuable guitar. What constitutes a Larrivée. They have drawn their line and it's not hurting the bottom line. It would appear Martin is in a position where what defines a Martin has changed. You still pay top dollar for that logo, however. Even if it's on a backpacker.  
JW - I'm going to guess that Martin has a board of directors. If not, I can't explain Micarta at all.

tom  june '51
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Peter Cree
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2005, 12:18:07 AM »

Duck,  

You're a fellow gemini.  I'm June 1st.

Yeah I guess one can't generalize about people.  And shouldn't.


I wouldn't mind living in BC though.
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2005, 12:19:59 AM »

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JW - I'm going to guess that Martin has a board of directors. If not, I can't explain Micarta at all.

Ducktrapper,

Then you would guess wrong. Martin is run by C.F. Martin IV.

As for explaining Micarta, it's simple. Good wood is disappearing. It's getting harder to find good quality wood and it is getting more expensive every day. Other woods are starting to move onto protected and restricted list. It may not be long before it becomes hard to find a guitar made from mahogany.  

Martin is looking for alternative materials that will allow it to continue to produce high quality guitars at reasonable prices. They are innovating with materials just as Taylor is being innovative with manufacturing methods.

As for your statement that the low end Larrivee is closer to the high end Larrivee than the low end Martin is to the high end Martin, think about this:

The lowest price full-size Martin ( DXM) has a list price of $619 and the highest price Martin (D100 Deluxe) has a list price of $100,000. Find me the similar comparison in the Larrivee line.

In fact, find me the Larrivee that has a list price of $619 and compare that to the Martin. That's the apt comparison.

I don't understand why you are so unwilling to acknowledge that Martin makes a quality guitar at many different price points. They may not meet your preferences, but that does not mean they are bad guitars and should not be considered by others.

Jim
 

 
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Peter Cree
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2005, 12:30:18 AM »

No doubt.  Martin makes good guitars.  Some great guitars too.

All they have to do though is look out the window to find one of the world's richest resources of great hardwoods.

And that's why I'm moving my business down the road from them.  the hardwoods are fantastic and forrest grown.  Alot are laying on the ground waitng to be harvested and turned into instruments,furniture and art.

I was recently back there looking at buildings and my cousin and I wandered through his back acres looking at all the species right there.

Anyone want a property in New Mexico?  mine goes up for sale in two months.
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Big Martin
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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2005, 12:39:00 AM »

I think that the big guitar makers are looking ahead to the not so far future in which the usual supplies of natural stands of tonewoods will be diminishing.  This is reflected in Martins use of several variations of HPL as well as micarta.

But one of the most interesting developments to me is the development of tonewoods grown on tree farms and plantations.  One almost overlooked model they brought out last year, I think, is the D-16 LYP which has the usual spruce top and a LYPTUS back and sides.  

This is a hybrid eucalyptus tree that is grown for its fast, disease free growth and its characteristics that are favorable mostly for furniture.  Apparently thought to be OK for tonewood too. I played one of these a few months ago, and it is similar to mahogany but brighter.  I think I may have read somewhere that it may be developing cracks however, so...

This wood is grown by Weyerhauser I think, on South American plantations.  It was started 20 years or so ago and has recently become harvestable age and size.

Martin is also using plantation grown cherry in their smartwood series..

It makes me wonder what other woods are being hybridized in this same manner that have yet to make it to market.  I bet it is a trend we see increasing over time.  I also bet we are in store for some really great woods from such sources..

Its time we quit overusing things that arent easily renewable - and more power to those makers who are trying to work with this in mind.

Just hold the micarta fretboard please..
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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2005, 12:53:55 AM »

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The lowest price full-size Martin ( DXM) has a list price of $619 and the highest price Martin (D100 Deluxe) has a list price of $100,000. Find me the similar comparison in the Larrivee line.
I believe they have a million dollar martin too.  The fact that you can't find such a comparison with Larrivee, or with just about any other builder is a credit to the other builders...  You can put lipstick on a cow, but all you end up with is a cow with lipstick  :blink:

Martin makes great guitars overall. And the ones that cost over $99,999 prove that they make some damn silly ones too.  I wonder if the street price on the million dollar one is 6 hundred grand?  :lol:  
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« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2005, 12:26:23 PM »

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You can put lipstick on a cow, but all you end up with is a cow with lipstick  
 
Now THIS I want to talk about, Phil. Have you tried this. (Is this DOCTOR PHIL???) C'mon, you're among friends here.

Sometimes I lean towards the conspiracy theory...an unholy tribunal of Martins, Gibsons, Taylors, Ramierezezez, and Washburns sitting together at a solid brazilian rosewood conference table in a room with quilted mahogany walls inventing envonmental threats and fixing the price of precious tonewoods EVER HIGHER AND HIGHER!!!!!!

Then I have my coffee and I'm OK
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« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2005, 01:10:02 PM »

ignorant insistence is right around my normal limit on such silliness.

I would bet you in a blindfold test you couldn't "hear" the difference between, rosewood, ebony, micarta, maple, or whatever fretboard material is made of.  Silly? no, just normal limited reality . . .
 
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« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2005, 02:20:36 PM »

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You can put lipstick on a cow, but all you end up with is a cow with lipstick 
 
Now THIS I want to talk about, Phil. Have you tried this. (Is this DOCTOR PHIL???) C'mon, you're among friends here.

 
Actually I have done it.  The problem is they've discontinued roll on lipstick  :(  
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« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2005, 02:28:59 PM »

What shade is the fashionable gurnsey wearing on the runways this season?
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« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2005, 02:31:55 PM »

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Quote
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You can put lipstick on a cow, but all you end up with is a cow with lipstick 
 
Now THIS I want to talk about, Phil. Have you tried this. (Is this DOCTOR PHIL???) C'mon, you're among friends here.

 
Actually I have done it.  The problem is they've discontinued roll on lipstick  :(
Aww man!  Talk about ruining my day!  DISCONTINUED IT?   :o

 
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« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2005, 02:39:52 PM »

Jw - Again I bow to your superior opinion. Martin is Godlike in their absolute perfection. How could I ever have thought differently? Now I exitedly await for guitars entirely built from Micarta and papier maché proudly bearing the Martin banner.
Btw did you hear that the new Rolls will have nauga hyde seats? Acute shortage of genuine Corinthian leather, I believe.   :lol:  
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2005, 03:01:46 PM »

Could someone tell me what Corinthian leather is?
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« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2005, 03:07:55 PM »

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Could someone tell me what Corinthian leather is?
It's just a name for a type of leather, made famous by its use by Chrysler when they tried to turn an ordinary car into a luxury car.

Jim
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Big Martin
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« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2005, 03:58:14 PM »

I love Martin guitars!

and Larrivees

and Breedloves (though they have created some of the ugliest bridges ever put on a guitar)

and some slected Gibsons

and Huss and Dalton

and and and...
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« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2005, 04:52:10 PM »

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It's just a name for a type of leather, made famous by its use by Chrysler when they tried to turn an ordinary car into a luxury car.
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JW - You DO get it! In Martin's case they put their logo on a backpacker. Same thing imho. I'm old enough to remember when they had more respect for it. The Backpacker would have been a called a Goya or some such thing. Proudly made under the auspices of CFMartin but it would not get the vaunted logo. This does not apply to any other guitar company. Well maybe Gibson. Being Number One comes with a large responsibility. Otherwise you are sucking your customers in and taking advantage of a reputation that doesn't actually apply to the particular product.  
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« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2005, 05:08:07 PM »

what ever happened to the Sigma brand? i dont see them anymore. some of those were not bad guitars. some even came with solid wood bodies, tops and back, at least. did martin drop the sigma line?
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2005, 05:16:24 PM »

Ducktrapper...

If only you knew what were talking about, you might make sense once in a while.

The Backpacker is a totally different type of guitar made for a specific purpose and a specific market.

As for your statement that no other guitar maker does the same thing, you are forgetting Gibson's Epiphone, Fender's Squier and the different lines that other companies make as well.

Breedlove has the Atlas line. They have the Breedlove name but they are not the same as other Breedlove guitars. Are they not Breedlove?

You continue to make apples and grapes comparisons as you cling to a position that makes no sense.

Jim
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