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el guitana
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2005, 12:17:57 PM »

Actually, my Buck has a teak handle ;)  
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2005, 06:10:04 PM »

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I don't know...34% resin = 34% plastic. I like the quote, I think it may have been from the guy who make Froggy Bottom guitars, or Dave Webber, that all the materials used in a guitar should be wood or natural (excepting the strings and such). That is one primary reason in my for Larrivee making such a great guitar. Instead of plastic bindings and such, you get flamed maple. How cool is that?

If the price point is the same, as Martin seems to indicate...why are they not using ebony? To be conscious of the renewable resource? Give me a break. It's a money thing pure and simple. Either it's easier to work with so less labor charges, they get more fretboards per linear foot, or it's just a lot cheaper. Somewhere the cost of the material came into the picture and drove the decision process.

Andy
Of course it's a money thing. That's what they have to do to offer the 16 series at the price point that it is available at. If they made the guitars with ebony fretboard, the price would be closer to that of the 18 series.

Of course, at least Martin admits what it is using. That's unlike Gibson who used a material to fill the hollow chambers in its Les Paul guitars. Gibson called the material Chromite. The rest of the world calls it balsa.

I think that in coming years, we are going to have to get more used to non-traditional materials making their way onto acoustic guitars, as the supply of good wood gets smaller and more expensive as time passes.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2005, 06:20:04 PM »

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Simple. No thanks. I can buy a Larrivée with ebony. I mean, I pick up something called a D1 or something like that. It does have CFMartin on the headstock. The guitar is okay. Plywood. Possibly micarta. So how much? $350.00 - $400.00? Huh! $1100.00???? A Seagull sends it home to mama crying. Are you kidding me? I can get a solid wood Larrivée D03 for that. No brainer, ain't it? Seems some folks want to own something with that decal on it, awfully bad.    afro
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I pick up something called a D1 or something like that. It does have CFMartin on the headstock. The guitar is okay. Plywood. Possibly micarta. 

If you found a store selling a D1 for $1,100, that's a total ripoff. The list price on that is $1,199 and it should be available at decent stores for less than $800.

And FYI....the D-1 has solid spruce top, solid mahogany back, laminated mahognany sides and a rosewood fretboard.

Now, I did just get an OM-03R for the same price, but the D-1 is not as bad a deal as you cited.

Jim
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2005, 08:24:02 PM »

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Simple. No thanks. I can buy a Larrivée with ebony. I mean, I pick up something called a D1 or something like that. It does have CFMartin on the headstock. The guitar is okay. Plywood. Possibly micarta. So how much? $350.00 - $400.00? Huh! $1100.00???? A Seagull sends it home to mama crying. Are you kidding me? I can get a solid wood Larrivée D03 for that. No brainer, ain't it? Seems some folks want to own something with that decal on it, awfully bad.    afro
Jim,

If I could be presumptuous enough to translate for Ducktrapper, I don't believe he was saying a D1 cost $1100.  What I thought he was saying was that with all the compromises on the Martin he was expecting it to cost $350-$400 but it cost $1100 because it said CF Marting on the headstock.  Also, that a much cheaper Seagull sounded better than the cheap Martin, and that $1100 would buy a nice Larrivee D-3 with a wood fingerboard.  (Actually, I think the street on the D3 is much less than that, even.)

I heard Ducktrapper praising the Larrivee and knocking the Martin.  Maybe I am wrong though.  It is common.

Rob
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Rob Hanesworth

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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2005, 11:28:11 PM »

I'm talking about the tag hanging on the guitar. I realize I will pay less. But still. All I'm really saying is that, and I believe it's obvious, Larrivée's less expensive guitars compete much better with their best models than do CFMartin's. It's a corporate decision. How does Larrivée do it? Laminates? Micarta? Nope. They just make the 03's a tad plainer.
My contention then is, unless you're going to fork out for a "real" Martin (which will be even more conspicously over - priced) why bother.  
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laughingskunk
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2005, 11:47:59 PM »

Personally as long as it sounds good, and doesnt fall apart Im not sure I care what it is made of. Of course this comes from an owner of a CA Bluegrass Performer. Personally feel this guitar is as good if not better than most wood ones. Also I love the sound of my Martin LXK2. It may be HPL but sure sounds good, and is fun to play. Patrick
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2005, 06:04:29 PM »

I used to think the same, but there is no doubt I have heard the difference. Once I listened close to the fretboard, I feel I can identify the micarta in regular playing. Its a thinness, brittleness, and a twanginess. Being a small part of the total sound formula its subtle, but IMO, unmistakable.

 :huh:  :P  :D  This is a joke right?  Sorry, that's just BS.
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2005, 10:22:50 PM »

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I'm talking about the tag hanging on the guitar. I realize I will pay less. But still. All I'm really saying is that, and I believe it's obvious, Larrivée's less expensive guitars compete much better with their best models than do CFMartin's. It's a corporate decision. How does Larrivée do it? Laminates? Micarta? Nope. They just make the 03's a tad plainer.
My contention then is, unless you're going to fork out for a "real" Martin (which will be even more conspicously over - priced) why bother.
A "real Martin" is anything made in the factory in Nazareth.

I agree that Larrivee can be a better deal in the sub-$1,000 price range. That's why I just bought an OM-03R.

But I disagree with your premise that the lower priced Martins are not "real Martins" and should not be considered.

Anyone looking at guitars should try everything in their price range and choose the one that they believe fits them the best.

Jim  
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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2005, 11:51:08 PM »

It is just a sign of the times.
If it works and is stronger it will evolve.
 
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2005, 05:33:34 PM »

JWSamuel - While technically I have to agree, I believe you know what is being said. GM could have called the Chevette a Cadillac Lite or something. Probably would have sold a bunch to people who want to say they drive a Caddy. Doesn't make it a "real" Caddy though.
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2005, 05:58:15 PM »

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JWSamuel - While technically I have to agree, I believe you know what is being said. GM could have called the Chevette a Cadillac Lite or something. Probably would have sold a bunch to people who want to say they drive a Caddy. Doesn't make it a "real" Caddy though.
Actually, GM did try that. The also sold the Chevette as the Pontiac T1000.

And the Chevy Cavalier was sold as a Cadillac Cimaron.

But that does not parallel the Martin example.

Martin is not taking someone else's guitar and putting their name on it.

The lower price Martins are designed by Martin and made by Martin in the same factory, by the same materials. They are real Martins.

Let's turn your logic around on Larrivee. Are the 03 series "real" Larrivees? How low could a Larrivee be priced before it stopped being a "real" Larrivee?

Now, to get back to your car examples, are Cavaliers and Corvettes both Chevys?

Jim  
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2005, 07:36:19 PM »

You can insist on missing my point if you wish. Larrivée is not CFMartin. It's the new kid on the block. The D03 competes MUCH better with a D05 than a D1 does with a D18. Period. Corporate decision. Martin, imo, cannot see the value of giving virtually the same guitar for much less so they come up with a laminated, micartilated, virtual Martin. YES it says CFMartin on the headstock and YES that makes it a "real" Martin but in my book it's a *&^&# Chevette by any other name. Cadillacs and Chevettes are both cars. Both will get you to the mall. That's where the comparison ends.  Disagree all you want but please don't mischaracterize what I'm saying by being overly literal.  
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2005, 08:04:26 PM »

play a beautiful piece of music on it to a person who doesn't know the first, let alone the last thing about guitars, and it makes no difference at all. sometimes the technical aspects of guitar playing and certain knowledge take the sheer joy and passion out of this wonderful thing we know as the guitar. years ago i didn't know if or what a laminate was or a solid wood guitar, i just know what i liked. today i'm blinded by prejudice and the knowledge that i have acquired. i honestly wish i didn't know better.  
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2005, 09:02:31 PM »

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You can insist on missing my point if you wish. Larrivée is not CFMartin. It's the new kid on the block.

What's the point of that?


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The D03 competes MUCH better with a D05 than a D1 does with a D18. Period.

Again, you are not making a valid comparison. The D03 and the D05 are one step removed from each other in the Larrivee product line. The next line down from the D18 in the Martin line is the D16, then the D15 below that. So, there are at least three steps from the D1 to the D18. Compare the D05 to the Larrivee that is three steps lower in its product line.

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Martin, imo, cannot see the value of giving virtually the same guitar for much less so they come up with a laminated, micartilated, virtual Martin.

What value does any company have in offering the same product at a lower price? None. The reason for having a product line is so that manufacturers can offer a product at every price point. No company offers the same product for a high and low price without making changes in the product.  As for the laminated materials making it a virtual Martin, no. It is a Martin made from laminate materials.

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Cadillacs and Chevettes are both cars. Both will get you to the mall. That's where the comparison ends. Disagree all you want but please don't mischaracterize what I'm saying by being overly literal.

If you don't want to be "mischaracterized," use analogies that are correct. Again, let's take you car example...Is a Chevette a Chevy? Yes. Is a Malibu a Chevy? Yes.  Is a Camaro a Chevy? Yes. Is a Cobalt a Chevy? Yes. Is the Suburban a Chevy? Yes. Is a Corvette a Chevy? Yes.

They are all Chevys, yet they are all different and sold at different price points. It's the same as for the Martin line of guitars. All are Martin guitars, all are at different price points and all are different in materials and construction.

None of that changes my initial point, which was that if one buyer blindly eliminates any guitar from consideration because of an artificially applied statement that has no basis other than another person's opinion is to possibly miss trying the guitar that is best for  they buyer.

Jim
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Sabatini
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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2005, 09:08:35 PM »

You guys wanna take it outside.  I'm trying to drink here. ;)  ;)  
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Rob Hanesworth

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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2005, 09:20:20 PM »

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I used to think the same, but there is no doubt I have heard the difference. Once I listened close to the fretboard, I feel I can identify the micarta in regular playing. Its a thinness, brittleness, and a twanginess. Being a small part of the total sound formula its subtle, but IMO, unmistakable.

 :huh:  :P  :D  This is a joke right?  Sorry, that's just BS.
No, its not a joke - and while there is a slight chance that it may turn out to be BS because of being human - I do believe I can hear what micarta contributes to the sound and tell how it is different from a wood fretboard.  Have you ever examined the physics of a guitar?  There is one thing going on on the soundboard and body - and something ELSE going on at the fretboard/frets/neck.

I wont be able to performa an exact comparison.

After all, I will never have a chance to hear the identical guitar with an ebony fretboard instead of micarta.  In fact,  I just sold the micarta fretboard one..

Have you ever heard a professional player discussing the difference between maple and rosewood fretboards on an electric?  Most will say there is a significant difference

Have you heard discussion of any sonic differences in acoustic guitars regarding the difference between ebony and rosewood?  Most will describe a significant difference there too.

So if two different woods sound different then why would you NOT expect that micarta, a PLASTIC, would sound different than ebony, a WOOD?

There is a difference in the sounds of fretboard materials - and it can be detected and described.  If you think about it the fretboard is playing a similar but less prominent role like the bridge/soundboard structure..

A lot of people think they can do the same... I think micarta contributes thinness and brittleness...  A precise quantification?  NO.  But the difference is there.

Now, I want you to start comparing by listening very closely to what is happening on your fretboard regarding sound..  because you never know where the BS may REALLY be
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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2005, 09:27:05 PM »

JW - Very well, an 01 Larrivée (solid sitka top, solid mahogany back and sides, mahogany neck, ebony fingerboard) compares much better to a D05 than a Martin D1 compares to a D18.
However, cool, you win. A D1 is fine representation of Martin guitars. They oughta be proud.

Sab - No one has a gun to your head.  :P
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2005, 09:50:20 PM »

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JW - Very well, an 01 Larrivée (solid sitka top, solid mahogany back and sides, mahogany neck, ebony fingerboard) compares much better to a D05 than a Martin D1 compares to a D18.
However, cool, you win. A D1 is fine representation of Martin guitars. They oughta be proud.

Sab - No one has a gun to your head.  :P
Did I miss something? I don't see the 01 series on the Larrivee Web site. Is it listed somewhere else?

Jim
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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2005, 09:59:43 PM »

Jim,

As a member of the Martin PR staff, your view of certain Larrivee products has been block.

 ;)  :)  
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Rob Hanesworth

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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2005, 10:17:07 PM »

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Jim,

As a member of the Martin PR staff, your view of certain Larrivee products has been block.

 ;)  :)
Please explain. I just bought a Larrivee OM-03R because I liked it better than the Martins I tried. I also sold a Martin to get the money to buy the Larrivee. And I don't know what a "block" view is.

I tried a number of different guitars in the same price range by different manufacturers and chose what I thought was the best one for me.  When I bought a dread, that turned out to be a Martin. When I bought an OM, it was the Larrivee.

That's all I am saying that anyone should do. To make a blanket statement about one brand of guitar or another -- particularly when the statement is based n false comparisons -- is foolhardy. Following the advice of such statements could lead a buyer to miss out on the guitar that is right for them.

If you are in the market for a guitar, try Martin. Try Larrivee. Try Taylor. Try anything else you find hanging on the dealer's wall and buy what you like best. Don't get hung up on proclamations made by someone posting in an Internet forum and let that steer you away from a specific brand.

I don't see how being accurate about Martin's product line makes my view of Larrivee "block."

Jim

 
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