Bolt on Necks

[eded]

if there built to make it easier in my view there not built to gig on but just to look at.

I understand you think that, but you understand the evidence doesn't support that claim, right?  The tens (or hundreds) of thousands of bolt on neck guitars out there that are working fine, day in and day out takes the wind out of that argument.  Not saying you should get one, just that the argument isn't valid.

Ed

[skyline]

Like I said me idiot..... As for bolt on necks there not as easy as you think and if there built to make it easier in my view there not built to gig on but just to look at.

So - no Fender electrics for you unclrob?

The oldest guitar I have is from 1948 and it doesn't need a neck set the next is a 1965 an it too doesn't need a neck reset nor dose my 1972 or 1975.Just saying

It would be interesting to find out how many guitars ever actually need neck re-sets. I suspect the number is pretty low . . .

[SMan]

I currently have in the neighborhood of 30 guitars and have owned nearly 50 in just under 50 years.  Coincidentally the only guitar I have ever owned that has required a neck re-set is my Larrivee CS-05 which is not a function of the neck joint.   To be honest although I have re-set a couple of dovetail necks I would prefer to send it back to Larrivee for a re-set mainly because of the refinishing issue.  (Too bad I could never get a response e-mailing them multiple times)

The whole dovetail vs bolt on neck debate is irrelevant to me in terms of which is better.  They are both equally good when properly executed.  I personally prefer to remove a bolt on neck as opposed to a dovetail joint.  (I didn't realize all that goes into removing a dovetail neck until being taught by Kerry Char some years ago.)

[unclrob]

I understand you think that, but you understand the evidence doesn't support that claim, right?  The tens (or hundreds) of thousands of bolt on neck guitars out there that are working fine, day in and day out takes the wind out of that argument.  Not saying you should get one, just that the argument isn't valid.

Ed

I'm cool with this statement.


I have no problem with Fenders I've owned a few over the years.Neck plate and all.

Resetting a neck is more then just removal of the neck,some necks have the fingerboard which goes over the body are glued down and if not removed right can damage the finish.I just can't bring myself to pay major dime for a guitar for a cheesey guitar build.....BUT I'm an old fart and set in my ways so no big deal.

[ducktrapper]

Something wrong with Taylors!   

Chick guitars?   

[ducktrapper]

I've always said I'm good with bolt on necks on ... strats, teles etc. I thought we were talking acoustics. I'm not trying to tell anyone not to buy a guitar with a bolt on neck, I couldn't care less what anyone else buys or plays. I never said they weren't good guitars or that they don't sound good or anything like that. My preference is Larrivée and Martin with good old fashioned dove tail joints. Sometimes I wonder just who people are trying to convince, however. Me or themselves. Got a problem with that? So sue me.     

[cke]

\As far as I can see it, for me, the worst that can happen is I will never own a Taylor.  

I sure can't see anything wrong about THAT!!

[cke]

My preference is Larrivée and Martin with good old fashioned dove tail joints.

And I sure agree with THIS 

[skyline]

"My preference is Larrivée and Martin with good old fashioned dove tail joints"

And there's an interesting section on "Structure" in John Greven's article "Martin Myths" that might in a round-about-way indicate the "superiority" of the glued neck joint:

"Here is the thing to remember: Martin was a conservative, pragmatic small business. For them, warranty repairs were a major drag on their bottom line, and when guitars came in for service, someone from the line had to stop their work and attend to it as Martin had no dedicated repair department back then.

It is obvious to me after looking at hundreds upon hundreds of vintage Martin guitars, that every change in structure over the decades had everything to do with solving an engineering problem, and nothing to do with TONE.

Martin akeady felt that they had the best possible tone in the marketplace, but they could ill afford instruments coming back with similar structural problems and not address the issues pro- actively for the future. Martin was always thinking STRUCTURE, not TONE when changes were made. " - John Greven

http://www.grevenguitars.com/pdfs/MartinMyths.pdf

[ducktrapper]

"My preference is Larrivée and Martin with good old fashioned dove tail joints"

And there's an interesting section on "Structure" in John Greven's article "Martin Myths" that might in a round-about-way indicate the "superiority" of the glued neck joint:

"Here is the thing to remember: Martin was a conservative, pragmatic small business. For them, warranty repairs were a major drag on their bottom line, and when guitars came in for service, someone from the line had to stop their work and attend to it as Martin had no dedicated repair department back then.

It is obvious to me after looking at hundreds upon hundreds of vintage Martin guitars, that every change in structure over the decades had everything to do with solving an engineering problem, and nothing to do with TONE.

Martin akeady felt that they had the best possible tone in the marketplace, but they could ill afford instruments coming back with similar structural problems and not address the issues pro- actively for the future. Martin was always thinking STRUCTURE, not TONE when changes were made. " - John Greven

http://www.grevenguitars.com/pdfs/MartinMyths.pdf

Well, certainly although that's a little misleading. As stated, they already had the best tone. As for change, take the truss rod for example. As stable as the old non adjustable ones were, when you have tens of thousands of guitars out there, it only takes a small percentage of guitars that have problems, even it it's the owners fault, to make a non adjustable truss rod an expense and bother that is best avoided. I would imagine that for the same reason, Larrivée went to adjustable truss rods. I also imagine that there are certain tried and true building methods that they will stick to due to the success of the sound and playability that they achieve. The fact that Martin has not gone to a bolt on neck says a lot.     

[eded]

I'm not sure it would be possible, but it would be interesting if a given maker would make examples of each without easily seen evidence of which was which.  Then a blind test could be done to see if players could tell a difference.

And FWIW, Martin mortise and tenon neck joints include a bolt.

Ed

[unclrob]

Sorry Ed its not a bolt but wood screw's if my memory is right.To use bolt's you need to use a nut mounted in the tenon.

[eded]

Sorry Ed its not a bolt but wood screw's if my memory is right.To use bolt's you need to use a nut mounted in the tenon.

There is a threaded insert in the tenon.  The bolt goes through the neck block and threads into that insert.  It is a bolt and captured nut.

Where it falls apart is that it is a glued joint...  the bolt and thread insert is really there to hold the joint until the glue is set.   I'm guessing the system is easier and more accurate than multiple clamps to hold the joint in place, and it is less expensive to just leave the bolt in place than remove it.

Ed

[ducktrapper]

There is a threaded insert in the tenon.  The bolt goes through the neck block and threads into that insert.  It is a bolt and captured nut.

Where it falls apart is that it is a glued joint...  the bolt and thread insert is really there to hold the joint until the glue is set.   I'm guessing the system is easier and more accurate than multiple clamps to hold the joint in place, and it is less expensive to just leave the bolt in place than remove it.

Ed

Which models use it, by the way? 

[eded]

Which models use it, by the way? 

Offhand, I'm not sure.  All of the models that use M&T neck join.

A simple (and brief) search turned up one page that said everything up to the 16 series.  So only their lower end offerings it seems.

Ed

[George]

The very best sounding Martin I have ever owned or played is a 000 MMV with a mortise and tenon neck join.  This guitar is currently the only Martin I still own.  The old Taylors I used to have were set neck, but had perfect neck angles (I will forever regret letting my 1999 K-22e go).  My new Taylor with bolt on neck has a serious problem with neck angle, and it came that way from the factory.  I just never have gotten around to addressing the shim that it needs to set it straight.  There are other custom acoustic luthiers, that use their own version of bolt neck technology, that build extraordinary guitars.  I used to believe that neck-thru electric solid body guitars were the ultimate in sustain, but I have since owned numerous set-neck and bolt-on neck electrics guitars that had absolutely insane sustain and tonal quality.  Personal preference is a good thing, but I seriously believe that a great guitar can be built with any neck join methodology...

[eded]

The very best sounding Martin I have ever owned or played is a 000 MMV with a mortise and tenon neck join.  This guitar is currently the only Martin I still own.  The old Taylors I used to have were set neck, but had perfect neck angles (I will forever regret letting my 1999 K-22e go).  My new Taylor with bolt on neck has a serious problem with neck angle, and it came that way from the factory.  I just never have gotten around to addressing the shim that it needs to set it straight.  There are other custom acoustic luthiers, that use their own version of bolt neck technology, that build extraordinary guitars.  I used to believe that neck-thru electric solid body guitars were the ultimate in sustain, but I have since owned numerous set-neck and bolt-on neck electrics guitars that had absolutely insane sustain and tonal quality.  Personal preference is a good thing, but I seriously believe that a great guitar can be built with any neck join methodology...

I don't think Taylor acoustics ever had a set neck.  There was the old bolt-on system, and the new bolt-on system...  and the one used for the Baby Taylors, but never a set-neck.

I agree that in the right hands, it doesn't matter what the neck join is. 

Ed

[ducktrapper]

It matters if it matters to you for whatever reason and it doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to you. Like wearing socks with sandals or mixing whisky with coke.   

[adern]

... mixing whisky with coke...

Getting awful close to religious discussion here :)

[skyline]

or mixing whisky with coke.   

Is that even legal?