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Author Topic: Zero Glide Nut System  (Read 6132 times)
Mikeymac
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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 10:34:44 PM »

As SMan said, the zero fret acts as the nut.   It has to be higher than the other frets so the strings will rest against it.


Here we go... No, the zero fret does NOT have to be higher than the other frets... if that were true, every fret moving up the fretboard and up the neck, should be slightly LOWER than the frets behind it as you move away from the (higher) nut fret and toward the bridge.

The strings rest on every fret when you press them down, and shazaam! They play in tune and the string does not buzz on the next fret!

Making the zero fret higher than the first fret means pressing the string down MORE, therefore stretching it and causing (1) intonation problems, and (2) finger soreness and hand fatigue at the first position/cowboy chords.

If you can put a capo on any fret and the guitar will play in tune and there is no buzzing, then there is no reason for the zero fret to be any higher than the first, second, etc.

Where is unclrob to support me on this...? 
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SMan
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2016, 10:45:49 PM »

The zero fret in essence "acts as a nut" that doesn't set string spacing.  The nut on a zero fret guitar only sets the spacing.

On second thought I'm out.

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Steve ....aka the SMan
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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 12:29:08 AM »

The zero fret in essence "acts as a nut" that doesn't set string spacing.  The nut on a zero fret guitar only sets the spacing.

On second thought I'm out.




I've removed my post and I am out too
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L07 Shooting Star
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2016, 05:27:33 AM »

Here we go... No, the zero fret does NOT have to be higher than the other frets... if that were true, every fret moving up the fretboard and up the neck, should be slightly LOWER than the frets behind it as you move away from the (higher) nut fret and toward the bridge.

The strings rest on every fret when you press them down, and shazaam! They play in tune and the string does not buzz on the next fret!

Making the zero fret higher than the first fret means pressing the string down MORE, therefore stretching it and causing (1) intonation problems, and (2) finger soreness and hand fatigue at the first position/cowboy chords.

If you can put a capo on any fret and the guitar will play in tune and there is no buzzing, then there is no reason for the zero fret to be any higher than the first, second, etc.

Where is unclrob to support me on this...? 

Mike, with all due respect, you are incorrect.  The reason is quite simple, actually.  It is because you don't want your strings to buzz when played open.

The reason that a zero-fret has to be at least slightly higher than the first fret is that if it wasn't all your strings would buzz when played open.  It's no different than the depth of the nut slots on a conventional guitar without a zero fret.  If you filed down the nut slots so that their bottoms were the same height as the first fret, every string would buzz when played open as well.  Even on a guitar with an extremely straight neck, perfect geometry and perfectly level frets, the bass E string, as it comes out of the nut, has to be at least a few thousands (maybe 10 thousands?) of an inch above the 1st fret or it will buzz when you play it open.  That's because the strings vibrate in an area greater than their diameter when you pluck them.  You might get away with down to 5 or 6 thousands on the treble e string without buzzing on the first fret.  Guitars like that are the exception.  I can rarely set up a guitar so it doesn't buzz on the first fret unless there is 15 or more thousands of an inch clearance between the bass E string and the first fret, and 8 or more thousands between the bottom of the treble e string and the top of the first fret.  The exact same criteria applies to a zero-fret.  It has to be at least a little higher than the 1st fret, period.

The other point you are missing is that guitars have a bow in their necks, called relief.  A proper fret-levelling job is done with the neck perfectly flat.  But once you string it up, you almost always have to allow at least a bit of relief so it won't buzz.  So the guitar, in playing condition, is bowed with the lowest point usually around the 7th or 8th fret.  So, you are right in saying every next fret would have to be lower.  That is exactly what occurs, but it is due to the purposely introduced neck relief.  If you made most necks perfectly flat with the truss rod after tuning them up to pitch, they would buzz like crazy all over the place.  There are some guitars that this can be accomplished but they are rare.

You can take this to the bank.  Rob can confirm what I have said if that what it takes to convince you.
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Mikeymac
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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2016, 07:11:39 PM »


Mike, with all due respect, you are incorrect.  The reason is quite simple, actually.  It is because you don't want your strings to buzz when played open.

You can take this to the bank.  Rob can confirm what I have said if that what it takes to convince you.


Then why don't the strings buzz when you use a capo one one of the frets that are the same height as the others and play the strings open in those positions on the neck?

I also understand the need for some neck relief - but this does not change the fact that a capo at any fret should cause string buzz according to your theory, yet it doesn't (if the frets are LEVEL).

The fact that guitar makers who use zero frets use a higher fret has more to do with insurance than it does with proper set-up. It's the same reality as most companies send their guitars to dealers with the nut slots cut too high - a proper set up at the dealer almost always means lowering the nut slots.

I am still waiting for unclrob to chime in, too 
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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2016, 07:16:31 PM »

I'm no unclrob, but I totally agree with what Kurt posted.

      Though anything is possible, I suppose.
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 03:23:16 AM »

I really didn't want to get into this.

The zero fret is the same height as the bottom of the notch in the nut in all the zero fret guitars that I've handle mostly Gretsch's.I had a Fender 12 string from Japan that I added a zero fret to too correct an intonation issue,I popped the nut place fret in which gave it just enough to intonate.replace the nut behind it.This was an undressed fret so it was taller the rest of the frets.

What Kurt posted is correct.



OK I've just tried for 10 min to explain this and my typing skills suck so bad that I can't explain clearly whats going on it just works due to pushing down the sting behind the fret.............................................




Now you know why I didn't want to get involved..................call me and I'll explain it.


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Mikeymac
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« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 04:09:21 AM »

You're the tech, unclrob (and Danny, too). But I've done nut work on a lot of guitars (including around 10-12 Warmoth necks that I've asembled and set up).

So I wish someone would/could explain to me why you can put a capo on any fret on the guitar and the open strings don't buzz...and all the frets are LEVEL.

Logically, then, if the neck is adjusted properly, the zero fret shouldn't need to be different than any other fret...

...I'll quit now - it's not a hill worth dying on. I just haven't been convinced, that's all.
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« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 04:21:03 AM »

Then why don't the strings buzz when you use a capo one one of the frets that are the same height as the others and play the strings open in those positions on the neck?

I also understand the need for some neck relief - but this does not change the fact that a capo at any fret should cause string buzz according to your theory, yet it doesn't (if the frets are LEVEL).

I understand what you are saying.  However, consider this.  When you put a capo on the 3rd fret, let's say, it normally doesn't buzz on a well set-up guitar.  When you finger it at that same 3rd fret it doesn't buzz either.  The capo has the same effect as using your finger.  If it does buzz with the capo on, it will also buzz with your finger behind that same fret.  That has nothing to do with the height of the string(s) above the 1st fret, however.  They are 2 separate issues.

Also remember the strings are lowest at the nut and gain height as they approach the saddle.  They are not parallel with the fingerboard; they angle upward.  On most guitars this height gain is at least 1/16", often a bit more than that.  So even if the neck is perfectly flat, the actual height of the strings increases as you go up the fingerboard towards the saddle.  So when you finger a string at a given fret, it can't touch any of the frets higher up, however close it might be to them.  If it did buzz on a higher fret, you would either have to raise the string at the saddle, file the offending fret down, or introduce more relief.  Again, a separate issue from the string height at the nut/zero fret.

The fact that guitar makers who use zero frets use a higher fret has more to do with insurance than it does with proper set-up. It's the same reality as most companies send their guitars to dealers with the nut slots cut too high - a proper set up at the dealer almost always means lowering the nut slots.


Yes many guitars arrive from the factory with nut slots too high and I suppose zero-frets that are higher than they need to be.  Part of a good setup is to get the strings as low as possible above the 1st fret without buzzing when played open.  So most times, the nut slots are cut deeper, and I suppose a zero-fret would be filed lower.  That doesn't change the fact that they both need to be at least a few thousands of an inch higher than the first fret when the setup is completed.  That's just the way it is.

 

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tlp2
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« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 12:35:01 PM »

It's also kinda cool to think of the amplitude of the vibration of the string.
Greatest at the midpoint, least near the endpoints,despite the frequency remaining essentially the same.
So clearance isn't as big a problem at the 1st fret as it is at the 12th.
That's one of the reasons that the fret below which ever one you're pressing down is "clear". 
:)
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Mikeymac
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« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2016, 01:14:46 PM »


It's also kinda cool to think of the amplitude of the vibration of the string.
Greatest at the midpoint, least near the endpoints,despite the frequency remaining essentially the same.
So clearance isn't as big a problem at the 1st fret as it is at the 12th.


Also another reason why buzzing at the first fret (in front of a properly cut nut or leveled zero fret) is unlikely; with proper set-up the string - the string vibrates/moves very little close to the nut - so it shouldn't vibrate against the first (or second or third...) fret.
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2016, 01:38:58 PM »

If the zero fret was exactly the same height as the first fret, the strings would simply lay on top of the first fret.
    It is the same as making a nut too low.
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2016, 06:43:30 PM »

Didn't mean to set off a firestorm.  But here's my perspective:

-- On the ZeroFret: the package comes with a pre-cut bone nut (that is higher, wider, and thicker than needed and requires filing/sanding) and four fret "wires" of varying sizes to allow a choice that avoids buzzing while maintaining low action.  I settled on a mid-range wire whose top extends 0.050" above the fretboard.  The conventional frets extend 0.035" above the fretboard and the guitar is set up with very little neck relief and a saddle that extends 0.120" above a line projected across the tops of all the conventional frets.  The guitar doesn't buzz, even when played hard.

-- On the AddWire: it has no effect on my playing (all nail fingerpicking) and adds some pizzaz to the tone (for good or ill).  Though I only added one string (an octave G) to the original 6, I now think of the guitar as a 9-string (half way to a 12-string).  As an aside, Teton offers a true 10-string, with strings 1 - 4 doubled and 5 & 6 solo.

Again, all this is being done to a Teton guitar (a nicely built, solid-cedar-topped Chinese git), and not to a Larrivee (blasphemy!).   


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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2016, 06:44:25 PM »

OK after many  my brain has kicked in a bit.Rev the height of the saddle is what keeps the string from buzzing its an angle thing.
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A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
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tlp2
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2016, 06:48:59 PM »

oops - others posted in between and I hit the button

Quote
If the zero fret was exactly the same height as the first fret, the strings would simply lay on top of the first fret.
    It is the same as making a nut too low.

Presuming the saddle is the same height as the zero and first frets, right?

With a perfectly straight neck, and making the same assumptions,
the string would touch all the frets equally.

So, zero fret or nut slightly higher than the first fret,
saddle at zero fret/nut height or slightly higher,
and torsion set to allow a slight bow in the neck to accommodate
the greater string vibrations near the middle of the string
is the theoretical set up we're looking for...

(?)

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mike in lytle
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2016, 07:24:28 PM »

So, zero fret or nut slightly higher than the first fret,
saddle at zero fret/nut height or slightly higher,
and torsion set to allow a slight bow in the neck to accommodate
the greater string vibrations near the middle of the string
is the theoretical set up we're looking for...
Wow. those are really good lyrics!
Any chords and melody for them?
Mike
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skyline
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 01:13:01 AM »

If it was that good of an idea, wouldn't the best guitar makers all use it? IE Have we ever seen a Martin with one? Sounds like an attempt to gild the lily. Then again, get off my dern lawn! *    

I thought Martin was more about less strings - isn't that why everyone pays so much for those ancient "tenor guitars" (otherwise known as steel string ukuleles)?  whistling

*and when you're done getting off of ducktrapper's lawn, make sure you Stay Out Of My Jello Tree!
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skyline
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« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 01:30:15 AM »

Wow. those are really good lyrics!
Any chords and melody for them?
rap don't need no melody man - 's all about the rhythm
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tlp2
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« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2016, 04:34:58 PM »

^Shucks, thanks for the props guys.

I'm embarrassed to play that one out.
The second verse is some sappy junk about
mahogany and ivoroid
and harmony on the Larrivee board ...


Feel free to use them to any tune that seems right, and
if you get rich and famous be sure to mention me.

 
 
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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2016, 07:35:48 PM »

Here is my take. 
When you are setting up a guitar and are at the point where you are making nut adjustments, the idea is to get the slots just enough higher than the frets so that when you finger at the third fret the string doesn't touch fret one or two. You want this so you don't get buzzing coming from the strings vibrating against the frets behind your finger. If the nut (insert zero fret here) was the same height as the other frets what ever position you fingered the string would be laying on all the frets behind your finger, assuming the neck is perfectly flat.
Ideally you want the string to rise up toward the nut or saddle respectively on both sides of your finger, just more so going to the saddle to allow for the oscillation of the string. When you pluck the string most of the vibration is going on between your finger and the saddle but the string does vibrate going towards the nut.
Hope this makes sense.   
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Roger


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