Another question 'bout Parlors

[dougwilcox]

Hi all - I haven't posted in a while but a question comes to mind and you're just the folks to ask.
Obviously there are variables but, in general, what's your experience with break-in time for a P-03?
I've had mine for a couple of months and it's sounding good but there a few notes on the neck that still exhibit the dreaded "boxy" tone.
I've read that these guitars will eventually open up completely but - what kind of time frame should I expect as a rule of thumb?
Thanks!!


It's only mid-week but the sun's over the yard arm where I live. Can i offer you a cold one? 

[dneal]

I think this will hinge on expectation management.  I highly doubt it will start sounding like a Froggy Bottom parlor, or some high-dollar O's.

I'm taking my P03-R to a luthier tomorrow to see about lightening up the bracing (flame suit on) in an effort to get rid of some of the boxiness.

www.stollguitars.de, because they're 20 minutes up the road from me...

[Danny]

I think this will hinge on expectation management.  I highly doubt it will start sounding like a Froggy Bottom parlor, or some high-dollar O's.

I'm taking my P03-R to a luthier tomorrow to see about lightening up the bracing (flame suit on) in an effort to get rid of some of the boxiness.

www.stollguitars.de, because they're 20 minutes up the road from me...

I'd like to know how that turns out. I've had 3 different P--09 models and always felt they were too tight. Heavy bracing may be the issue.

[webberink]

My P-03R has opened up very nicely, and the tone is definitely not boxy.  What has helped a lot in my opinion, besides playing it all the time, is it's my one guitar that gets stored outside the case and is probably slightly drier as a result (my music room varies from 35-45%RH).  The top has nicely weathered to a rich dark pine.  I also replaced the nut and saddle with bone and I noticed that helped the tone a lot.  It also likes new strings so its gets a set at least once a month, more often every two weeks, always medium PB.  It was boxy sounding for a bit when I first got it but all the above I think has given me a sweet little 12 fret short scale guitar that I love to play.  And I had to learn to position my picking hand differently as with all 12 frets, to get the sweetest sounds.  My advice, be patient, play it lots and try a few things along the way.  I might try a set of bone bridge pins some time too.
Dave

[LoMa]

Is it the dreaded boxy or the dreaded dead or thunky notes?

Dead or thunky notes are more common I think in small bodied guitars and there's not much you can do about them - some advocate gluing something underneath the bridgeplate to add mass and/or change the interior volume of the guitar - that sometimes helps or simply places the dead note somewhere else.

If it's boxiness, well that's the nature of super small bodied guitars with super short scales, although some Larrivee parlors are more or less boxy than others. But you are playing a very small bodied guitar and you are going to hear that, especially if you are a strummer. You'll hear it less if you fingerpick. But I don't consider that a deficit - it's the nature of the box and I like to exploit it.

Some Larrivee parlors are very resonant from day 1, and others seem very stiff, while others are somewhere in between. My hogtop parlor is amazingly open and always was - one of the first ones Larrivee made. I haven't played another Larrivee parlor with that level of ringing resonance, although I've played many I very much like, especially the rosewood models. But I've played many that didn't do a thing for me either. Parlors are guitars I especially like to have a chance to play before buying if at all possible. Even though I tend to like them a lot, I don't like every one of them. And if I don't like them at first, I won't get it on the off-chance that it might open up to something I do like. But that's also true of all my guitars, not just the parlors.

[YOUNG AT HEART]

Well, I have had a P05 for about 3 months now, and the bottom strings do certainly have a bit more sustain than when new, so something's slowly happening .
However, what I have mainly discovered, above all else, is that out of my 3 guitars, the parlour is definitely best suited to a certain set of the music I play, the OMO3R to another set of music, and so on, ....and I believe that regardless of "opening up" etc, that this will always be the case.
In racing they always say..." horses for courses", same with guitars I reckon.          

[Parlor Picker]

My Rosewood Special Edition Parlor is almost 10 years old now and it is sounding pretty good. My attitude to it varies from day to day - sometimes I think it sounds sweet and others more boxy.

For many years I took it to a folk music session and thrashed out chords on it which helped open it up (however I don't use picks and strum with the nail on my index finger). The nut and saddle are bone replacements. A trial with ebony bridge pins was a complete flop - it sounded like the whole soundbox was stuffed with blankets - so I still have the original plastic pins. Have considered bone or Tusq but never seem to have got around to it.

My luthier friend started sanding down the X-bracing in the lower bout, but eventually gave up as the soundhole is not big enough to accommodate most men's hands! This improved things slightly. The guitar is very heavily braced compared with other quality instruments, but this does result in great sustain and possibly an improvement in tone, but not volume.

At the end of the day, I am very fond of this little guitar which hangs on the wall (hopefully picking up ambient sounds and opening up more, although it does not resonate in this respect like some of my other guitars) and it is the one I noodle around on when sitting on the couch.

I have recently had it in dropped D and occasionally Open D or DADGAD which it seems to like.

Possibly stating the obvious, at the end of the day, the more you play quality guitars, the better they get.

[dneal]

At the end of the day, I am very fond of this little guitar

My sentiments exactly.  It is absolutely the most comfortable guitar I've ever owned.

I took mine to Christian Stoll today (link to his site above).  A small builder, and a very nice guy, who "knows" Jean (don't know if that translates to our use of the word).  Apparently, he wanted to apprentice with him, but it was the early 80's and the economy wasn't favorable; so he didn't get the chance...

Stoll makes a parlor, which I played.  It was VERY responsive.  It had an unusual tonal quality, in that it reminded me of a classical (the bass end of it anyway).  I was impressed with it and some other models sampled.  I figured my little Larry was in good hands, and if anything can be done then this is a guy who can do it.

He was very honest in his assessment of the potential results.  I quote: "It's 50/50"...    He did agree that the the B string was a little overpowering (mine almost "honks", for lack of a better word).

We'll see how it goes.

[YOUNG AT HEART]

Hi dneal----I think "honk" is a good word, and I have a similar scenario on my P05 G string frets 2/3/4  --I have the string a little bit over-tight now to calm the goose down a bit !!   

By the way, was following your thread on AGF recently, and very interesting results.....I have always thought myself that in a blind test of the top 10" best" World renowned guitars , that most folks would struggle to pick more than half correctly.....I believe that apart from the subjective guitar acoustics , it's also the style of music being played, and ofcourse the flair of the musician, which are paramount....won't stop me watching a Youtube instrument video, and getting serious GAS though !     

[dneal]

By the way, was following your thread on AGF recently, and very interesting results.....I have always thought myself that in a blind test of the top 10" best" World renowned guitars , that most folks would struggle to pick more than half correctly.....I believe that apart from the subjective guitar acoustics , it's also the style of music being played, and of course the flair of the musician, which are paramount....won't stop me watching a Youtube instrument video, and getting serious GAS though ! 

We kind of touched on this in a different thread.  I think the inherent sound of a particular instrument and the ability of a player are two distinct things.  Yes, a horrible player can produce a bad sound on a great guitar, and a great player could produce a decent sound on a horrible instrument (I'm more sure of the former than the latter...).

Let's look at Eddie Van Halen.  He plays a nylon string on "Spanish Fly".  There's no denying the signature style heard.  But what would that guitar sound like if John Williams was playing Asturias?  What if Eddie was playing Williams' Smallman?  How would we know what the inherent tonal characteristic of the instrument was?  The player becomes a distraction that's not necessary, if we're trying to focus on the instrument (and builder).  An extreme to illustrate a point: I doubt any player, no matter how gifted, can make a Ramirez sound like HD-28.

I rarely buy a guitar without playing it, although I seem to do that more often recently, for reasons that aren't pertinent.  That leads me to also search out internet sound clips, and I do enjoy them and the resulting GAS.  When I'm browsing, I disregard most ragtime pickers, fretboard slappers, chord strummers, etc...  I look for simple fingerpicked arpeggios.  I don't want to hear the player, I want to hear the guitar.  All I need is some basic competence to reveal richness of bass, overtones, sustain, etc...  That leads to the problem of accuracy.  Am I really hearing what the guitar sounds like?

The origin of the thread on the AGF was a common idea, brought back to mind (for me) by another poster in a different thread.  The crux of it hinges on our perception and how it is influenced.  Ridiculous amounts of money are spent on advertising, to influence our perception.  "These Cuban cigars are rolled on the thighs of virgins" sort of thing.  We convince ourselves they must be better then!

I have a prejudice against mahogany that goes back over 20 years, because I was led to believe that it was cheaper because it didn't sound as good.  I also have a prejudice against Gibsons, and I'm very cognizant that both prejudices still affect what I "hear".  I try to overcome that, but hey... we're still human.  The 0-15S I recently bought has certainly helped change the mahogany "prejudice" to an appreciation of a different but still wonderful sound.  I still love the overtones of rosewood though... ;)

There will always be "fanboyism", with cigars, wine, cars, computers and guitars.  I like to honestly challenge my own prejudices and learn to appreciate things for what they are (even though my little P-03 needs some help!!!).  The AGF thread was for those who share a similar view (or might be led to, given the results).

Haters gonna keep hatin' though...

[Strings4Him]

Great thread.� Look forward to the results on your parlor once back from the luthier.

[dneal]

Anyone have their Parlor handy, and a tape measure?  I'm curious about the body length (bottom of lower bout to top of upper bout).

A Martin O measures at approximately:

UB: 9.5"
Waist: 8"
LB: 13.5"
Depth: 4"
Length: 19"

The Parlor (according to Larrivee's site) measures at:

UB: 9.5"
Waist: 7.75"
LB: 13.25
Depth: 4.5
Length: ???

The Martin has .9" longer scale, and uses light strings.  I think the body length is about the same, but I don't know for sure...
The 0-15 I got from Ted isn't boxy (and is actually wonderful, for those who have been eyeballing them).  Other than bracing pattern and bracing profiles... what's really the difference?  JCL uses every bit as good of wood as Martin.

Yes, I'm entertaining wishful thinking and rationalizing that the Larry's boxiness will go away... 

[YOUNG AT HEART]

Dneal--------------17 3/4 " is the measurement on my P05.......By the way,  I still believe that there are some pieces that the intimacy and subdued bass of the parlour suits better than the boomy larger guitar.   From my own experiments, I have found  that out of 20 pieces tested repeatedly, that .....Michelle, Blackbird, Romanza, Concierto Aranjuez, Ben,  and Groovy Kind of love, are certainly suited better to my parlour, rather than the OM.  The other 14 pieces tested were MUCH better on the OMO3R.
So in my own personal case, the little parlour has it's worthy, if limited,  place in the armoury.

Anyway, all the best.....David   

[dneal]

Ok, but I'm not sure where that came from.  I also like the less-boomy bass that comes with a small body.  It's the reason I went from an HD-28 to the OM 10 years ago, and now I mainly play an 0 and 00.

What my P03 lacks is rich bass, not boomy bass.  The open low E is very metallic, as if I can hear the string making the sound, without the contribution of the body.  Kind of the opposite problem of the "honk" we discussed earlier.  I'm looking for some balance / equilibrium across the strings, and I'm aware of the nuances of the body size.  The P series seems a little heavy on the mids, which is where (I think) some of the boxiness comes from.

[bargemule]

I experimented with the parlor-size for a while. I had two Godins, one an A&L AMI and a Simon & Patrick cedar top, both 12 fretters. hated the AMI, so I upgraded to the S&P. I love the idea of the small body, but I just never loved the sound. Small, boxy, plonky. I had them mainly as travel/camp/ guitars, but never reached for them otherwise. just not satisfying to my ears. Also had trouble with the B string sounding funny, no sustain open, some frets sounded "better", but never "good". finally sold it last month and the proceeds went towards my Larrivée OM.

I've never played a P series, and my dealer has a couple of the OO-03 models that I am curious to try. But I doubt I'll have another parlor-size just to have a small portable guitar.

[dougwilcox]

Hey - OP here. Thanks for your thoughts. It's been interesting hearing about your experiences.
I'm a full-time musician and bought the P-03 because I've always loved the ergonomics of small guitars (although honestly, I've never quite found a sound that I've continued to love over time). As an experiement, the Larrivee has gotten some major stage time as my main guitar. I play about 50/50, fingerstyle and strummed (albeit with a fairly light right hand). My P-03 has a wonderful "chimey" sound to it and depending on position on the neck and notes involved can sound pretty big and broad. The note separation on the strummed chords can be a better sound (sometimes) than my other guitar, which is a dread (although that dreadnaught bass is awfully easy to love.......).
I do accept what makes my Parlor "different" from larger guitars and really do like that sound - sometimes it sounds every bit as responsive as a larger guitar, just quieter.
The main thing bugging me after these couple months is the fact that I can be playing along and hit a particular position on the neck or combination of notes that suddenly sound like I'm playing a toy. Definitely not dead notes, definitely a case of boxiness.
Just hoping that eventually the guitar evens out and plays with the same tone across the entire spectrum.
Thanks again!

[sayheyjeff]

Doug

can't say I have experienced the issues with my parlor that you have yours.  could very well be that I just don't have as sensitive an ear (I don't have a particularly sensitive ear).  while I love my little larrivee and have had it about 5 years, It is not as sweet as my martin 00018vs.  never expected it would be.  different animal even tho they are both smaller guitars.  I do find tho, that strings make a big difference.  I like medium phospher bronze and similar.  use mostly john pearse.  in addition, I took my larrivee to Maryland luthier Todd Stock soon after I bought it.  he tweaked the neck, laid in a bone saddle and new pins (can't remember what they are made of), and worked his usual magic.  Made a load of difference in the guitar and I have automatically taken guitars to Todd right after purchase for his inspection and setup.  had a pickup installed as well that sounds great tho I rarely plug in.  saw on your website that you are originally from Maryland.  if you are still anywhere close, I highly recommend considering having Todd take a look at your guitar.  He is sharp, a great guy, very talented, and very reasonable.  You are welcome to come see mine to compare if you like.

jeff

todd's greenridge guitar homepage below.  he does facebook, etc too but I don't.

http://www.greenridgeguitars.com/aboutus.html

[cke]

I have played my P-09 with (against?) both a Martin 0-28VS  (super guitar) and a Collings parlor. There wasn't much difference with the Collings, but the Martin is both larger in dimension and deeper sounding. Still, the Larrivee  held its own IMO. My favorite small guitar is the Martin 0-28VS, but the Larrivee is great as long as one has realistic expectations, true of any parlor size instrument. Still very balanced and loud enough. Mine rings and has a lush tone, all that nice rosewood and a great Sitka top; which I have toned down by using Markley Gold strings (12's) and an ivory saddle.

The parlor would never be my only guitar, though any of my others would be acceptable as a singleton if required.  I play blues and slide on it (or anything else when in my hands) and when I am singing with preschoolers.