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flatlander
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« on: January 01, 2012, 02:14:26 PM »

Copying over from pass on your tips as this is going to be more than simple little tips as I intended the other thread to be for. I will trasfer posts starting with how chords are made and what chords go with what keys as they will relate to 3rd's and give a reference to look back at. Any teachers or knowledgable others please feel free to add or correct. I just dug this stuff out on my own with no formal study other than basic understanding of theory from books. Also any one who has things related to 3rd's in anyway please add! If anyone has questions, please ask. I'll try to answer if I can or perhaps someone else can. I've heard people on here's stuff and I KNOW there's folks that know more about this stuff than I do.
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 02:17:09 PM »

Basic chord theory for biginners or people who never got around to learning.
Chords are named by referencing the major scale of the key that is the name of that chord.
 In other words for a C type chord you're referencing C major scale. (do-re-mi ect)
for D chord you're referencing D Major scale.

do is I, re is II, mi is III fa is IV, so is V, la is VI, te is VII "and that brings us back to DOOOOO(sorry) This Do is octive. Keep going above octive and you end up with 9th 11'th 13th ect.

 Chords are named by what notes out of that scale you are using or what you've done with them, (flatted, raised)

Major chord uses 1st, 3rd, 5th notes out of scale

Minor uses 1st, flatted 3rd(lower 1/2 step or 1 fret) and 5th.

Suspended short for suspended 4th. replace 3rd with 4th note in scale. I guess it's called suspended because that's how it sounds. Wants to get back to 3.

Augmented is short for Augmented(raised) 5th In C knock G note up to G#

Dominent flats 7th note in scale. Often just notated as (x)7 a major 7th uses non flatted 7th and is notatated Maj 7

Diminished   flat 3, flat 5 and 6th. can be named by any note in chord and repeats itself every 3 frets up (or down)

The rest of names are pretty much just what note you added from scale to chord.
A  C6 just adds the 6th note (A) to chord.

9ths, 11ths, 13ths aren't always octive above root. If called by that name however they are assumed to be built off of a dominent chord and as such will have b7 as well. 

Well that's all times allows. Hope that's somewhat clear. Any ?'s ask. Or if someone with better knowledge wants to add
or correct (I don't think I said anything outright incorrect) please add comments.

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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 02:18:17 PM »

WHAT CHORDS ARE IN A KEY AND WHY


When in a certain key what chords are likely to work? First know that these are not hard and fast rules, but generally speaking.
Lets take key of C for simplicity. C has no sharps or flats so the NOTES that make up C major are c-d-e-f-g-a-b then repeat.
On keyboards thats white keys only. The standard triad chords that fit a key uses only the notes that are in that key. (talking triads, not dominent, or any kind of dim or altered ect)
 You start with the c note for first chord. Take the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes (every other note in the c maj scale) and you end up with C E G which is a C Chord.
Move up to the next note in scale, D and do the same thing. 1st, 3rd, 5th notes starting with D, using only the notes from C scale.You end up with DFA. If you refernce back to how chords are named a couple of post back, you see that is a Dm chord.
Up again to starting with E and taking  every other note that's in the C Major scale. 1-3-5 and you have Em
Starting with F you get F major
Starting with G you get G major
Starting with A you get Am
Starting with B you get B b3b5 (B with flatted 3rd and flatted 5th) That can sound scarey but if you go back to how chords are named it should make sense.
In summary all you are doing is using the ONLY THE NOTES THAT ARE IN THE SCALE YOU ARE PLAYING IN to make basic triads of all chords used for that key..
Start with each note from that scale and take every other note above it, (1-3-5) to make chord!

No matter what MAJOR key you are playing in the sequence will always be Maj min min Maj Maj Min and (b3 b5)
Again this is MOST of the time and generally speaking.  Many are familier for example of using the II chord as a major in like a country or southern gospel song.Definitley other exceptions as well. Hope somebody learns something. As always if I gaffed something pounding this out quickly, please correct me. I don't think so.
NOTE: In talking with friend the other night it seems that perhaps more serious theory would include some major 7ths or other extended chords as the primary chords for a scale.

Found this link also which explains pretty much the same way but maybe a thing or 2 to add.
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/chords/what_chords_are_in_what_key_and_why.html 
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flatlander
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 02:20:02 PM »

I AM NOT A GUITAR WIZARD. I've been playing since I was 15 and I'm 51 now. (What a difference flipping the 1 and 5 around make huh?) This stuff came SLOW to me. My desire is to share these things that I came to the hard way. Like every 2 years coming across something cool an then exploring it and ABUSING it. My thing has alway been to find things that a half axx player(myself) can do that aren't that hard but really add a lot.
Yes things like the 3rds take some practice and work, but God willin and the creek don't rise, time WILL go by and a year or two later they come quite naturally! Remember this. The hardest thing may be getting started on guitar. Those torturous hours of changing from G to C to D. And then just when you're feelin all big you go for the F chord. Sometimes I think they call it F for a reason.
These 3rds and a lots of other little movements I've put on here are no where near as hard as learning F. If you put 1/4th the work in as you did learning F you can expand. That was way to much rambling.............................

Starting to use 3rd's for leads or walk ups to after years of playing is one of the best things I've ever done. Highly recommended.
I'm going to put just the notes AND explain it theory wise. If the theory is confusing, forget it. Get back to it later though.
I consider this first set to be based out of D shape chord. If you walk these 3rds straight up the neck you get the D major scale in 3rd's
Do RE MI-----------
1/------------2------3-------5-------7----------9------------10----------12----------14---
2/------------3-------5-------7-------8---------10-----------12----------14----------15--
3/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're only using 2 fingers, not hard! Just a matter of learning pattern. Learn the whole pattern straight up the neck to start. But when using in practical terms you'll usually just us portions. Here's a couple of very simple ways to start incorporating them into playing 1 step at a time.. Your playing in D just do this
1/---------2----------3---------2------------------------------------------------------------
2/----------3----------5--------3-------------------------------------------------------------
3/----------2---------------------2----------------------------------------------------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's right just splitting the time you're spending on D by going up and right back down. Next step. Take it one notch higher.
1/---------2----------3---------5------------------------------------------------------------
2/----------3----------5--------7-------------------------------------------------------------
3/----------2--------------------(7)----------------------------------------------------------
4/---------------------------------(0)-------------------------------------------------------
5/---------------------------------(0)--------------------------------------------------------
6/----------------------------------(5)with thumb---------------------------------------
Here your doing the same thing but playing the D chord on 5th and 7th fret. LISTEN, when using the 3rd position as a D chord go ahead and play the 3rd string as well. That not only makes it fuller but defines it as a D chord clearly.  Don't get hung up on this right now but theres more to say about that. I won't muddy the water,yet. The important thing is to get used to these kind of movements. The rest of the notes are optional but all are correct notes for D chord.

Then you could step it up some more
1/---------2----------3---------5---------7--------5---------3-----------2------------
2/----------3----------5--------7---------8---------7---------5-----------3----------
3/----------2------------------------------------------------------------------2------------
4/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here your just walking it up a little further, then right back down to D. This could/would all happen while song is staying on D.
So you and bud usually just strum pretty easy songs. While (s)he's justing sittin there struming a D chord, throw that in. They'll go "man where did that come from"?Play around and find different ways to use them. It won't come overnite but these aren't too hard and if you keep incorporating them a little peice at a time, you can start using them pretty darn quickly. There's much more. As long as someone says they are intersted AND practicing this stuff I'll keep on, like ideas of what to do when this simple D song changes to G chord, then A chord. The 3rds on 2nd and 3rd strings, 3rd and 4th strings. How you can add notes to these easily. (after all you've got 2 free fingers there ready for duty) ect.
  These can be thought of as little pieces of chords. If you go back and look at what chords make up what keys you'll see the pattern goes Maj min min MAJ MAJ min then (b3 b5). 
Your taking the open D shape chord and and walking the scale up the neck using  D chord shapes, changing it to a Dm shape chord where appropriate and only using the note on 1 and 2nd string, which happens to be the I and III of the chord. (hence 3rds) Heres the same thing I put up in first diagram showing the whole chord with other note in shape included in ( ) This () note is the 5th
Remember chords in key M m m M M m (b5b7)
              I D maj       II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   
1/------------2--------------3-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------10---------------12--
2/------------3--------------5-------------7-------------8---------------10---------------12---------------14-
3/------------(2)----------(4)-----------(6)-----------(7)---------------(9)--------------(11)-------------12--
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 3rd string is the 5th of your triad, the 2nd string the 1 and the first string the 3rd. If you want, check this out. Play the scale up the neck like this and use entire chord. It'll make earier post about what chords work in a key clearer. Remember the shapes are all either an open D shape or Open Dm shape (except VII) just moved up the neck. Well I suppose that's a bit to keep someone busy a while. This is good stuff. Sensibud of tips. highly recommended.
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 02:21:30 PM »

For mandolin, these same types of things are GREAT.
Same idea. 1 is on the 1st string this time though and 3rd on the 2nd string(s)
This would be working out of a G chord

    G chord
----------3------------5--------------7--------------8------------10------------12-------------14-----
----------2------------3---------------5-------------7-------------9-------------10--------------12---
----------5-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you play mandolin  you know that since the strings are all tuned the same interval from each other, you can simply move
chord  shape over a string and use same shape so you can  do same thing 3rds wise on 2nd and 3rd string using C shape.
    C chord
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------3------------5--------------7--------------8------------10------------12-------------14------
----------2------------3---------------5-------------7-------------9-------------10--------------12----
----------5--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anywhere you use that chord shape, the same 3rd pattern will apply above it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 02:23:59 PM »

I was wondering where to go next and decided on staying on the first 2 strings for a while. Those are the easiest, and I stayed there quite a while before going to other string pairs. I'm just gonna add one little piece to 3rds already mentioned. It also adds a little twist
to theory. I will put my guess as why it works, open to correction. But it definitely does work. Here it is
1/------2----------3-----5-----7-------(8)--------7--------5----------------------------------------
2/-------3----------5-----7-----8------(10)-------8--------7----------------------------------------
3/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The (8) and (10) replace the 9,10 of original layout in prev post.  I'll string something longer out that demonstrates different sound.
The first  ascention and descention will be pretty close to Rose in Spanish Harlem that Larry mentioned.
The second will add the "new" pair of notes.
1/----2----2-----3----5---5----7------9------7----5--/---2----2----3----5----7-----(8)-------7-----5--
2/----3----3------5----7---7----8-----10-----8----7--/---3----3----5----7----8----(10)-----8-----7--
3/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There it is. Why does it work when not one of the primary chords in key. Here's my GUESS
I don't know! I will say this. We assume the whole chord would be Am.  (Remember the 1st string of these pairs is the 3rd. What happens when you flatten the 3rd IE 9th fret to 8th fret? From explanation of chords we know that a minor chord is defined by flattened 3rd.)   
Why Am fits in key of D I can't explain but it does. you could play a little progression
that goes D Am G D right? Play these chords, just big open chords behind the change and hear it. Just assume everything up to that point is a D chord behind it for this purpose.
1/----2----2-----3----5---5----7------9------7----5--/---2----2----3----5----7-----(8)-------7-----5--
2/----3----3------5----7---7----8-----10-----8----7--/---3----3----5----7----8----(10)-----8-----7--
Backing chords D>                                                                             D     Am       G       D

That's all I'm gonna say about that. (isn't that a Forrest Gump line?)

Plant this seed in your mind. You are only playing 2 notes which means they could be 2 notes out of another chord than one shown
in previous post. Take the 5-7 combo. It could be the Ist and 3rd of F#min as shown in prev post, 5-7-6 , or it could be the 3rd and 5th of D chord. 5-7-7. That's why in example 3 of original post I said to play 5-7-7 to define it as D.   If that's confusing, it's supposed to be, for now. So don't get hung up on it if it is and just learn patterns and keep nibbling at theory. I can tell you I'll be having to think and learn as I try to get this stuff down in writing. As always correction or further explanation/ idea's more than welcome!
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 02:25:07 PM »

Ok you can use your pinky very easily to add a note to these forms. Perhaps a hammer on or whatever. Stay there a while if it fits.
If you make these the way I do, it's pretty much just a matter putting pinky down from where it already is resting. Easily added
 note notated in ( ) Note that this is 4th in scale if you care to. Or do what I usually do and just think of it as a note that can be added.

1/----2-(3)-------3(5)---------5(7)---------7(8)-------9(10)------10(12)-------12(14)----------14(15)
2/----3-----------5------------7-------------8----------10-----------12-----------14--------------15--

Doesn't take much of a stretch on D Major Shape based shapes to reach on up and get 2 frets up from (x) to get 5th.

A quick review demonstrating why these are 3rd's
1/-------2--------------1----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/-------3-------------3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3/------2-------------2------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   D Chord       Dm chord       
 These 2 shapes are what's used for these 1st set of 3rd's we're looking at.
No matter where they are up neck same theory applies.

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(2)-F# note--III- Me-3rd----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do----------------------------------
           D MAJOR  Do  Mi =1 and 3rd of scale

1/-(0) e note II-Re-----------(1)-F note--bIII-minor 3rd -----------------------------------
2/-------------------------------(3)-----D note---I-Do--------------------------------
                      D MINOR CHORD  1 and b3 of D  scale

So basically what you have for these D shape based 3rds going right up the neck, is that when the first string is
one fret lower than second string, it's a major. When it's 2 frets lower it's a minor.
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 02:27:08 PM »

Most of what has been shown so far is not only in the key of D but things that fit good while actually on D chord.
Now still in key of D we'll get started on options when going on thru G chord and A chord.
 We'll get started using a most basic progression. Along with a basic use of 3rd's

chords DDDD DDDD GGGG GGGG AAAA AAAA  D


1/-------2-----3------5-----3-------2-----3------5-----3

2/-------3-----5------7-----5-------3-----5------7-----5
Chord  D

1/-------7-----8--------10-----8-------7-----8--------10-----8

2/-------8-----10-------12----10-----8-----10-------12----10
Change to G chord

1/-------9-----10--------12-----10-------9-----10--------12----10

2/-------10----12-------14-----12-------10----12-------14----12
Change to A chord       then finish on a D chord

What we're doing here is just moving the original D chord shape up until its a G chord  then up til it's an A chord
and playing the same pattern above it each time.

1/-------2------3------5------------7-------8----10-----------9------10------12----------------
2/-------3------5------7------------8-------10---12----------10-----12------14---------------
3/------(2)-------------------------(7)-------------------------(9)---------------------------------
    D chord                        G chord                         A chord

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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 02:31:02 PM »

Flatlander,

I've been doing these since you've been posting.  Just that one piece of info from previous post outlining the Dmaj and Dmin shape difference was an "oh cool" moment.  I like travelling up the fretboard as I tend to hang out in the comfort zone of the first five frets so very often.  So as you're posting these and explaining them, it gets me moving around the fretboard as well as understanding the relationships of the thirds in a physical way.  Thanks.
Yea, I wanted to make sure the relationship was clear, because like I said early, it will lead to "seeing" chords eventually.
You're seeing this piece of one, know right off where the 1st and 3rd are. You can hunt arount for 7th, 6th whatever and have whole chord. I'm excited that someones following along.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 THIS IS WHAT IT"S ABOUT FOLKS! And this basic theory isn't that complicated once you remove head block. If you can count to 8 and have ability to add or subtract .5 from those numbers, that's all you need to do to understand BASIC theory!
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2012, 02:37:18 PM »

I'm going to start winding down on D shapes on 1st and second string but adding important stuff about them on my way out.

First to add more about what to do when changing chords while still in key of D. The same pattern is going to apply, pretty much,
and on the same frets. It's just that moving where you start , can follow the chord and feeling of song.
  When using 3rds in the manner I had in mind explained SO FAR, your pretty much playing lead with them.  So just as when your playing single string lead, there's no set pattern to use. You want to experiment with starting into pattern in various places,
skipping around, whatever to play a melody using them. Of course often a straight run up or down works great for leading into next chord. So experiment and start infiltrating them into playing and more ideas will come. You can come in and out of these while playing single string lead, or little pieces while your playing rhyrhm with mostly fuller chords. Remember to look for other notes you can
 add to them. Rememer as with any chord you can always slide into them from a fret below (or above)

 1/------1----2-------------2--3------
 2/------2----3-------------4---5----- ect. This would just be sliding up the whole form from below, not staying on lower set.
        So experiment

Ok this next part is crucial that you understand.  When using these in another key besides D, just remember that as in any scale
pattern, the same patterns will apply only the entire pattern will shift up or down the neck. I'l give example comparing D to E
and just apply that to whatever other key you want. As pattern pushes to 12th fret it's gonna pop back up at the bottom
Ie the nut or 1st fret.

Heres D again.
          I D maj          II Em         III F#min       IV GMaj          V A Maj            VI Bmin         VII  C#b5b3   
1/------------2--------------3-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------10---------------12-----(0)
2/------------3--------------5-------------7-------------8---------------10---------------12---------------14-OR-(2)
3/-----------(2)------------(4)----------(6)------------(7)-------------(9)--------------(11)-------------12------(0)

E, everything scoots up 2 frets. Top end of pattern drops down to nut end.

    VI C#min     VII  C#b5b3       I E maj       II f#m         III Abmin       IV AMaj          V B Maj                       
1/---------0------------2--------------4-------------5-------------7----------------9----------------11--------------
2/---------2------------4--------------5-------------7-------------9---------------10---------------12---------------
3/--------(1)----------(2)----------  (4)-----------(6)-----------(7)---------------(9)--------------(11)-------------
see where pattern just starts 2 frets up? If having trouble seeing put capo on 2nd fret and see original pattern up 2 frets
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2012, 02:38:35 PM »

2 more ideas which will give you hints of how to get started expanding your use of these to:
(1) find 3rd's on other string pairs
(2) derive chords out of this knowledge.

Back in tips thread I believe I commented how open E  open A and open D are pretty much the same chord shape moved across
the strings. The inconsistant interval between the strings, because of 2nd string being tuned lower, just causes you to have to compensate for that. Oh yea maybe I can just go back and cut and paste that, hold on a minute....................................
I'm back. Found it!

It's good to know that open E, open A, and open D are really the same chord form, in a way. You're just moving the whole chord over a string. Since the B, 2nd string, has a different interval from 3rd string than all the other strings have to each other, you just have to compensate when when moving chord over a string. Anyone who plays mandolin knows that the interval is the same between all strings. Once you learn a chord form, you can just move it over  a string with same shape and have same type of chord a 4th or 5th away depending which way you're going. On guitar when the 2nd string is involved if you go from chords E to A you must raise the finger moving to 2nd string up a fret because 2nd string is tuned lower. When going from A to D again the finger moving from 3rd to 2nd string must move up a fret to compensate giving D shape.
  So the fetted notes on any of these triads always have the same interval. Lowest(pitchwise) fretted note is 5th. middle fretted note is 1st and highest fretted note is 3rd. If you understand that well, then you realize that when you learn one new chord form, you are really learning 3 providing fingering works!
 Example" to go from open chord E to E sus (4th) you just raise highest fretted note one fret, changing it from 3rd to 4th in chord context. The same applies to open A and open D.   So on open E your raising the 3rd string 1 fret.  on open A you raise the 2nd string 1 fret and D  raise the 1st string one fret . All 3 give a a sus4 chord. 

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relitive position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                 
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                               
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

So for D the 1st and 3rd are on 1st and 2nd strings. This is what we already went well over.
For A they are on 2nd and 3rd strings
On E they are on 3rd and 4th strings.

So open E shape based 3rds are going to use the same pattern up the neck, shifted over to 3rd and 4th strings as D right? Because 3rd is on next  string up, 1 fret down, just as D chape is. And ust like D, when you go to minor lower that 3rd 1 fret. Gives same pattern.

A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   
1/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/------------2-------------3-------------5-------------7---------------9---------------10---------------12-
3/------------2-------------4-------------6------------7---------------9----------------11--------------13--
4/-----------(2)-----------(4)----------(6)------------(7)------------(9)---------------(11)------------(12)--
5/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3

From this with a little concentration you should be able to get Open E shape base 3rds on strings 3&4 and whole chord.
I'll probably do one more post on deriving chords out of this knowledge, then take a break for several weeks except
little comments if someone asks or posts thier own ideas. I wrote a lot this A.M. with family circus going on around me and
interuptions. If I gaffed anything, find it and let me know!

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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 02:40:14 PM »

Finding chords by using your knowledge of 3rd's and other aspects of chord construction.

Lets take a D shape chord and tear it up. Grow it new arms and anything else to milk the crap out of this chord form.
were gonna do this up yonder on the 9th fret where it will be an A type chord. Idea is to set in head that this is a D shape
chord that can be used to make all the different name chords, as long as fingering doesn't get impossible. Of course up the neck you can reach more frets. 1st step essential if you want to understand what going on. That being said always look for notes you can add to chords shapes wheather you understand it or not!

1/--------9----------III   Get this down. A basic triad uses 1-3-5 notes out of the major scale which 
2/--------10--------I     bares it's name. Know which fretted note is what degree of the triad.
3/--------9----------V     1st  3rd or 5th. Then  you'll know what you are doing to chord
4/------------------      when you move a note up or down.
5/------------------
6/------------------
  Lets move the 2nd string around and see what happens. I'm skipping the 1st right now on purpose.
   We'll get back to it and then I'll explain it's caveats.(sorry, they like to use that word at work)

1/---9-----9-----9-----9    1st chord is regular A major. The root (I) is on 2nd string.  The major 7th
2/--10-----9-----8-----7    note is always right below  the root.
3/---9------9-----9-----9    So by lowering the 2nd string note 1 fret you get A Maj7 chord.                           
  Lower it again and you get b7th note or Dom 7th, so A7.  Lower it again and you get 6th so A6.
 By same token you could raise the 2nd string to 12th fret and get a D add2.
                                   
Note: I've spent the last 15 minutes stepping on the muck in my brain about moving the 3rd string around, specifically down.
If you move it down 1 fret to 8th fret you get diminished 5th note. feel free to throw it in there. To turn it into a true diminished chord to many other things come into play, so I'm gonna bag that. Let's go up with it though.

1/---9----9----9-----9----- start with A maj. By raising third string up 1 fret you have
2/--10--10---10---10----augmented (raised)5th. A aug chord.
3/---9---10---11---12----By raising again you add 6th note. A6.
                                   Raise again and you have b7 note or A7.                                                     
Ok now lets go on a little journey to show what you can find if you hunt and peck around.  The following is a true story or exmaple
of my thought process. The names have not been changed and all are assumed guilty.
On the previous example I really like using the 6th and flatted 7th for a little rock & roll feel. But 2 things, I've got a pretty good
pinky but, is there an easier way to do it? Secondly and probably more importantly. That R&R lick out of that chord is a little trebly
and thin for rythm. Wonder if I can get the 4th string in the game to beef it up.  Alright let me see what the 4th string has to
offer. I still don't know every note instantly all over neck so I bumble around til I figure out that theres a note on 11th fret 4th
string that works. Check it out more and figure out it's the 3rd. Well that's great but now I've got all 4 fingers tied up. How can I do my little boogie thing? Well the first string was playing the 3rd before, but now I don't need it, found me another. So let me
abandon the 1st string and concentrate on 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings and arrange fingers so I can do my boogie. End up with

1/------------------    open or muted in A's case since E fits in chord.
2/---M----10--------  Shape used on some other frets will have to be muted. NOW my pinky is more
3/---I------9---(11)(12)(11) directly in position for boogie notes and bassier chord.
4/---R----11--------- And look at all this gravey! Being an A chord, the 1st,
5/------------------   5th and 6th string can  ring open and fit chord!
6/------------------    A beautiful chimey little creature. A great chord AND EASY!
  That's what I'm lookin for. My little boogie lick is in ( )
Experiment. move that 4th string note up and down. See what she got.

If you're following this bless you. Cause were gonna take it further. The flatted 7th here works great for my boogie lick but
as just a 7th chord doesn't have enough bite. That bluesy sting. For that I want my 2nd string 7th back! But I still like using the 4th string. Hmm  I could do this.

1/--------------- Well that works, I guess. A little bit of a stretch for this wimp. No real special sound.
2/-----I---8----- Let see if I can get fingers in better position. I can walk the 4th string down
3/----M---9-----and find next -note that fits. I remember that's not what I did in this case.
4/----R---11-- Not by that method. I used this trickwhich is a good one. Look for the same
5/--------------type chord as your making, A in this case, in the next position down.
6/-------------  -in this case it's a Barred A on the 5th fret. See if the notes played on higher frets of that form, can marry withthe lower fretted notes of form above it. A chord diagram show both chord would be nice.
But just make  A barred A on 5th fret and picture this A7 above it. Bottom line is you can arrive at this.

                      Now this is a great 7th chord.  Warm but very funky. Get some good
1/----------            20's,30's blues sound out of it.
2/---8---M---      Non fretted strings can rings open, they also can when using as an E chord
3/---9---R-------. down the neck. You've lost your 3rd here, which
4/---7---I---------books will tell you is all important, but who cares
5/------------------When using on various other frets you may have to mute open
6/------------------ strings or you can always do either or, of 2 following things marked with ( )

1/------(9)--P-----
2/-------8---M------
3/-------9---R------
4/-------7---I------
5/------(7)--I-----
6/------------------

Ok that about killed me. I'm picturing people hanging themselves across country or even the world. Ryler you OK?
 Weather you followed the whole story or not is not as important as getting the idea of finding your own stuff.
I'm beat and I'm not going back to Original D shape and first string options. If you made it thru this, you'll get the idea.
The caveat on 1st string is that it's the 3rd and book tell you it's crucial to define chord. I find it is when defining minor,
but as we just proved with above chord, I don't think it always needed.  GOOD NIGHT!
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 02:41:48 PM »

Flatlander,

I hung with you through it all, and believe I even get it.  I was playing Norwegian Wood last night in D and there was all the stuff you laid out emphasizing a dance up the fretboard on the first two strings with a steady bass drone below it.   I'm going to need to spend some time on the last two posts to get it ingrained--that sense of knowing what I'm playing within each chord.

I can't thank you enough for all you put into this lesson.  Take your well-deserved break, get full up on turkey and we'll see you back here at the stompin' ground for some guitar chit chat.  Much obliged for sharing your knowledge.


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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 02:44:14 PM »

Well I guess I got a pretty good start with A already. I'm gonna post what I already had For A,
Then just put a couple practical things you can do maybe not so much just using the 3rds but
triad or more that the 3rds were derived from. Remember that part of what you're trying to
do here is see the whole chord that can be used as well.  Refresher from earlier post.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
A is a little different because of the 2nd string being tuned differently.  3rd is on same fret as 1st. When it goes minor it drops to only being 1 fret down. Otherwise the same M m m M M m  b3b5 sequence.

            I   maj          II  m         III   min       IV  Maj          V   Maj            VI  min         VII    b5b3   
1/--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2/------------2-------------3-------------5-------------7---------------9---------------10---------------12-
3/------------2-------------4-------------6------------7---------------9----------------11--------------13--
4/-----------(2)-----------(4)----------(6)------------(7)------------(9)---------------(11)------------(12)
5/----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6/---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open A shaped based 3rds. 3rds are located on strings 2 and 3. Notes in ( ) complete triad.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Here a couple little things that aren't too hard. (my constant goal) These would fall in the
"beyond" part of post heading. Something you can end up seeing as you see the 3rd's
patterns.

1/...............................................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5..............................................................
3/..........2.........4........6..................................................................
4/..........2.........2........7..................................................................
5/...............................................................................................
6/...............................................................................................

Important to make the open A barred with 1st finger. Then all you have to do is lay middle
and ring down to get 2nd chord.. I usually get 3rd chord with 1-2-3 fingers. This is the same
 thing we did with D, Just in A. The song would be holding on A chord and you just go
between two A chords with the middle step added. You can mix it up. Go down,
Maybe  just go back and forth between the first 2 chords a couple times then up to the
 5th fret. Play around with it.

Add a step to it. for 4th chord all you have to do is lay down pinky

1/.........................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......7.......5.......................
3/..........2.........4........6.......6.......6.....................
4/..........2.........2........7.......7.......7.....................
5/......................................................................
6/.....................................................................
 Or how bout

1/.............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......7.......10................
3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9................
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11..............
5/...........................................................................
6/........................................................................
Wanna go even further?
1/...............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......7.......10...10.....12....14....
3/..........2.........4........6.......6........6...... 9......9.....9......14
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11....11....11.....14.
5/..........................................................................
6/...................................................................................
Sorry 12 fretters but if you just get 2nd and 3rd strings it works.  On 2nd to last chord
again your just laying down pinky and other fingers remain in place. Notice that the main
feeling of movement is coming from 2nd string.. You could change that to 3rd string.

1/...............................................................................
2/..........2.........3........5.......5.......5.......10...10.....12....14....
3/..........2.........4........6.......6.......7....... 9......9.....11......14
4/..........2.........2........7.......7........7.......11....11....11.....14.
5/..........................................................................
6/...................................................................................
For ease and time lets just give 3rd string more emphasis between 2nd and 5th fret.
So you can find notes to add in to get a feeling of movement that aren't hard to do.
Folks this is probably cheating! A jazz miester could very likely have a whole nother
chord shape instead of just adding a note to exsisting chord. But it works and adds a lot
 for players at my level.
  I'm not gonna redo all these diagrams but do this. Just pretend, or actually, play like a 12 bar
blues. (even though these have major feel) when it's time to go up to the D chord just scoot
the whole pattern up 5 frets to 7th, and do the same thing, when it's time for E start at 9th fret.
Of course you'll run out of room, but that give the idea of moving patterns around, just like we did
with D.
 Time to go, but I think I need to do one more on this thread to show caviats and little interesting
things that are going thru my head that might make you think more.  When you strip a chord down
it is less harmonically bound     Sorry that just was a more sophisticated word than I'm used to.
But anyway it's less defined and can go more directions or could be a substitute for multiple chords.
One more later. (didn't I already say that?)
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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 02:46:07 PM »

Now my long history has been as a flat picker but The last year or so I've been working on finger pickin which is starting
to come along. But anyway, It may be even more important for a finger picker to begin to see the bigger picture, cause
after all your thumb is probably cryin "let me play some bass notes!".  Well one thing  when playing out of A  is that a lot of
the things we've shown have the opportunity to just use the open bass strings and keep the thumb busy. Idle thumbs are the devils workshop after all for a finger picker. So open A and E may work for one thing. Otherwise just play around and reach over there
and grab ya one til you find one fretted that works. It can lead to finding some neat chords and relationships.
In fact let me just throw out a couple ideas along the discovery lines.
1/...............................................................................................
2/..........10.....10.................10......10...............................................
3/..........9........9..................9........11............................................
4/..........11......11................11.......11............................................
5/....................9...........................................................................
6/...............................................................................................
           A        F#m7               A       F#m
The first change you were just huntin for a bass note so you  reached over with your first finger, actually you're barreing
across 3-4-5 strings and you find one. Then you say well that sounds like a whole new chord, Well that's because it is.
By adding that one note you've changed the chord from an A to an F#m7.
Hopefully from previous discussion, you understand the 1st chord A and where it comes from. If the 2nd on isn't plain at first, realize that is just formed out of your regular open Am (7)shape. Heres the full chord(s)
1/............9.......9.............................................................................
2/...........10.....10..........................................................................
3/.......... 11......9...........................................................................
4/...........11.....11.............................................................................
5/............9.......9...........................................................................
6/............9.......9............................................................................
            F#m     F#m7

So knowing that everything is always relitive
you have figured out that anytime you can 1 note to a major and make it a relitive minor 7th, (VI chord is the relitive minor
remember) By the same token which is something you should definitely understand, the second example just changes it to
an F#m.  That is usually very easy to do and the one note to change is usually very handy. Hence you can also see why the
VI minor is called relitive. It's almost the same as the I chord. I've got to get dinner then I'm gonna give one more example.
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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 02:50:45 PM »

AGAIN THIS IS WHAT IT"S ABOUT! Apparently "long gone Larry" was able to apply this to stuff he was working on. When you do that it concretes stuff up in your head and you don't forget it.
A large portion of what I do is stuff I came across myself. If I spend time digging it out I never forget it and can apply it to other tunes.

ok. I have studied your lesson ....and....I GET IT !

You are playing a 3 note triad for the major - the neat thing is you are using what I think are called INSIDE CHORDS -
AND you are getting this MAJOR by playing the inside notes of a IVmin 7th... chord form
Then when you add in the bass note you get the IV min 7th.

I have also figured out that if I use the open E chord form in barr form for the major
THEN it is also very easy to drop that E form down one string and get the IV minor .

...also easy to drop and lift one finger to get the minor 7th.

So I can slide my E form barr down the neck to get many other keys.

I wondered how to APPLY this -
I can recall hearing songs with that chord progression -
It was similar to a suspended chord used for tension that would resolve back to the major.

So I guess it could be used at the end of a song, or possible in the intro, or maybe in the bridge ????

When using it for suspense I've noticed that if I play
MAJOR,   IV minor or IV minor 7th , then raise the flated 3rd note to a sharp 3rd for one beat, and go back to the flat 3rd
it makes a nice little suspense sound to resolve back to the major !!   bigrin

TEX, if I was there I'd buy you a BBQ dinner.

- Larry

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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

I am really HAPPY right now, sorry, I just spent an hour and a half writing out some really cool stuff and when I went to post it it got lost!    See how happy?
It gave more examples of how changing one note can change chord. How stripped down chords become more flexible and can be used as substitutes more easily. Like how a stripped down 7th chord, minus the root, can sub for a diminished ect.
The Em were gonna use below could also be used as a G6. I explained it all and with diagrams but if you take the time to figure out why youself it would be a great exorsise. Just figure what notes make up G6 and what makes Em and compare. The G6 is missing 5th.

Dang I'm mad. But anyway I will redo the last bit which will be fun and give an extended idea of how you can use this stuff. Like I said earlier I use most of this stuff on simple songs
Dylan. "don't think twice, it's alright" Chords G-D-Em-C-G-D-G.

1/.....7.....5......3......3.......7......5.......3...............................................
2/.....8.....7......5......5.......8......7.......3...............................................
3/.....0.....7......4......5.......0......7.......0...............................................
4/.....0.....0......5......5.......0......0.......0...............................................
5/                                                     2
6/                                                     3
         G    D      Em    C       G      D      G
I finger pick this and use what I posted as intro and between verses. The 3 and 4 string can be gotten by thumb.
You can always hammer on additional notes .
Notice the last G is our big open friend which put me in position to start singing verses with big open chords.
Notice how only 1 note changes to go from Em to C.
Disect that G6 Em relationship. Ask questions about it if your having a hard time gettin it. I'll try to answer.
 bigrin bigrin
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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2012, 02:53:45 PM »

To sum this thing up at this point, there were really 2 ideas here, the way I see it.
The first is just using 3Rd's as double stops (playing two notes at a time) to add a pretty fills or even entire lead break.
Kinda gives it a Spanish feel or mandolin feel.
 The second, although not as flashy, but more important is that hopefully it helps you visualize a map of the
fretboard better. I think of it as learning chords from the inside out. You learn how the chords go by starting with just the 3Rd's.
That makes the patterns pretty easy to learn. Then you picture the triad by adding one note, then you start to see the extensions
off of them.  I know for me looking at a lot of the chords up the neck, they were just globs of notes. If they don't make any sense to you and you're simply trying to memorize all these chords or just learning them to play one particular song, they are hard to use
at will like when you're jammin with someone.
 Anyway I enjoyed putting this stuff down and it has given me some new revelations as well.
As a final note I again say that although you could use this stuff to keep right on progressing, I play pretty simple stuff and
was just looking for a way to spruce it up some. If your an intermediate player who wants to take the next step and start going up the neck more and it actually making sense, I guarantee this is a good way to go. Thats a money back guarantee! Make sure you take the time to understand chord construction, figure stuff out on your own, start implementing
the ideas into your day to day playing, then just let time take it toll.
Let me add this link that I found last night. You can select this instrument, tuning. Put in what key or I think it calls it root,
what type of scale, It will give you tons of different scales and also show you whatever chord you want. You can select how many frets you want the diagram to be of. Just very versatile in the fretboard diagrams it gives you.   matt
http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord-scale-note-printer/

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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2012, 02:55:55 PM »

A real quick to finish my thought about G6 and Em..............
The rest of the story is that when you play that Em, you could also think of it as a G6 without the 5th. Depending on the context the 5th might not be needed. That particular shape is very close to how you make a G6 out of the Barred F shape on 3rd fret, (G)To be honest I'm not sure when you would want to do that, but I'm sure there's a time when it could come in handy as far as positioning of fingers. Like when it'd be easier to transition into an Em than it would a full G6. I guess another example of when it could be handy is say there's a song book that calls for G6 and your working out your own arrangement perhaps up the neck. You know where an Em is in the area you want to be in. You know you can turn that into a G 6th easily.  Let me tell you how this stuff can work. I just went to search for something like I was just talking about. Took an Em chord up the neck and turned it into a G6. I found a really good chord that's new to me. It was missing a note though so I added the missing note, the important third. I end up with a chord the is the same as a minor 7th.  So now I realize that a 6th's chord relitive minor played as a minor 7th is exactly the same chord. OK damx it I'll make a diagram. lets move it down home to familier territory. Think regular old open Am chord.

1/....................3.........3.................................................................
2/..........1.........1........1............................1.................................     Am is the relitive 6th of C
3/..........2.........2........2............................2.....................................
4/..........2.........2........2............................2......................................
5/.............................. .............................3..................................
6/...............................................................................................
         Am        Am7     C6                     C6 usually shown in books.

Am 1 b3 5       Am7  1  b3  5  b7        C6  1  3  5  6
      A C  E                A  C   E  G               C  E  G  A
Same notes used for Am7 as for C6. I wonder why they never show that shape as a C6??NOTE: This seems so obvious it makes me wonder if I'm missing something. Somebody want to double check me til I get a chance to review again?)  They alway show like I'll stick at end.
That is even missing the 5th isn't it? Whatever.
That may just be a theoretical exersise which in itself wouldn't be bad, or it could truely come in handy in practical
in some way.  As I'm sitting here dinkin on my guitar I'm finding finding some really good stuff. I'm mean right now.
Practical too. having to do with getting movement out of minor chords. But I'm beat. It's trying to become midnight.
When you start playing with these thing as they start to make sense, you can find some neat stuff. I'm learning enough
thinking about this stuff to think I might be a real boy yet before I die.
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« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2012, 02:57:19 PM »

I think I want to do this next. Ryler had her moment of ah ha that open E-A-D are really the same,
just moved over a string (a fourth higher) and compensating for wierd 2nd string (B).
 Let's look at those chord forms in the manner I was explaining, that is how the shapes will change in the same way to yield same type of chord. Reread the part of why this is important in previous post.
The we'll scoot those forms up the neck. This is basic but to be sure everybody understands.......
When you go up the neck, you can't take the nut with you (actually you can, it's called a capo but that still limits you) So those notes on the nut have to be taken into consideration as well. Maybe we'll end up recognizing up the neck chords in a visual manner. We end up figuring
 out or seeing the chords up the neck in two ways. 1st understanding thier construction starting with
know the 3rd's. Second, just seeing them as the familier open chords by sight. When we do this
we need to take another shape into consideration because it is used up the neck so much.
That is the open C chord shape. It lends itself well for 9th's 11'th '13's because those notes end up being stacked on the higher treble strings usually a better place to capture flavor of chord than
having to stick them in the bass somewhere. I'll make a couple comments then suggest you get a head start on the C shape on your own.
 Make a regular open C7 chord by placing pinky on 3rd string, third fret. That note is B or the flatted 7th of a C chord. If you add the 2nd string 3rd fret, you've made it a 9th chord. See whow the extensions are going to end up piling on top? Also Lower the 7th one fret (have to rearrange fingers)
That makes 6th chord. Lower it again and you have Aug (raised 5th)
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