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Author Topic: Fingers 234 for open EAD chords???  (Read 8395 times)
flatlander
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2011, 06:45:11 AM »

OK, the way my mind is racing about tearing "C" shape apart I'm quite sure I won't get to "A" tonight.  Like I said in previous post, I mainly see "C" as D shape. One ironic exception is in what was posted about moving C7 down to B7. Hard to call B7 as being out of D shape when 2 of the primary notes dropped below nut.
Anyway. I'm going to focus on chopped down versions of shapes which allow for plenty of movement within chord and can be used easily all over neck which is kinda where this started.
Finger pickers who always need to have bass line moving may need to adjust to fulfill that very important role.  So first is seeing the D shape in a different way making it more related to C.

1/--------2----------------------------
2/--------3--------------------------
3/--------2---------------------------
4/--------0----------------------------
5/--------0----------------------------
6/---------x---------------------------- We'll leave getting 2nd fret with thumb out, we're chopping down after all.
 Basic open D

1/--------2----------------------------
2/--------3--------------------------
3/--------2---------------------------
4/--------4----------------------------
5/--------0----------------------------
6/---------x----------------------------
Still basic D with 3rd replicated on 4th string. The C shape is starting to take form.

1/--------x----------------------------
2/--------3--------------------------
3/--------2---------------------------
4/--------4----------------------------
5/--------x----------------------------
6/---------x----------------------------
Chopped down D using strings 2-3-4 only. The note on 4th string replaced the 3rd previously gotten on first string and leaves I-III-V triad in place

To finish off turning into C shape add 5th string, 5th fret.

1/--------x----------------------------
2/--------3--------------------------
3/--------2---------------------------
4/--------4----------------------------
5/--------5----------------------------
6/---------x----------------------------

That's how I see "c" as coming out of D shape.  Now this shape or even more so previous triad only shape, can move around the neck very easily and can be made into other chords pretty easily.
For easy demonstration I'm just going to show triad. To make most of this it's pretty essential to understand a little chord contruction as shown is previous post's cut and paste or by going back to orginal referenced post. In quick review for D shape on strings 2-3-4 that we'll be talking about..1st must understand that chords are made of the 1-3-5 notes out of scale of which the chord is named. So if we were in open position here and in true D chord, it would reference D maj scale or notes D-F#-A. The III is on the 4th string, the V is on the 3rd string, and the I is on the second string. It's important to understand that so you can easily turn into another chord. It gives you a reference and you know whats going to happen to chord as you move each note.

Moving the I on second string. Whenever you know where the root of chord is you know a couple of things you can easily do. If you lower root one fret you are going to have a Maj 7th chord.
Lower it 2 frets and you have a dominant 7th chord. If able to lower it 3 frets you have a 6th chord. Raise it 2 fret and you'll have an "add 2" chord. (if 7th played as well it'd be called a 9th chord)
SO.....moving 2nd string note can produce these chords. The (x) notes are your options. I'm going to move shape up the neck to make easier. It's an E  chord now.

1/------------------x----------------------------
2/------(3)(4)---5---(7)----------------------- In moving notes up the neck you go from 7th to Maj 7 to Basic triad to "add 2"
3/-----------------4---------------------------
4/-----------------6----------------------------
5/-----------------x----------------------------
6/-----------------x----------------------------

Lots of usable action for blues and R&R on 3rd string. The 7th is more easily played here as well and is in the same place it would be in a C7 type shaped chord. Now remember that your reference is
fact that the V is on 3rd string string. If you raise th V 1 fret you get Augmented (5th) chord. 2 frets and it a 6th chord, 3 fret and it's a dominent 7th. For augmented you pretty much have to change fingering BUT you can do a bunch of blues and R&R stuff while keeping fingers in same place and just adding 6 and 7th frets with pinky.

1/------------------x----------------------------
2/-----------------5-----------------------------
3/-----------------4--(5)--(6)--(7)----------  Adding notes up neck here gives you Aug, 6th and 7th chords.
4/-----------------6----------------------------
5/-----------------x----------------------------
6/-----------------x----------------------------

4th string  Moving the note on 4th string change chords to these. remember the III is your reference point from triad
1/------------------x----------------------------
2/-----------------5-------------------------
3/-----------------4---------------------------
4/-----(4)-(5)--6----(7)------------------------ Goiing up  with (x) notes you get Add2, minor and sus (sus means replace III with IV)
5/-----------------x----------------------------
6/-----------------x----------------------------

So that's just basics of easy way to find chords. If you're having hard time with theory, in the mean time (until you learn!) Just add notes to any chord and see what happens by feel.  By no means limited to using only strings 2-3-4 but to me that's the gut of your chord and gives a good starting point. And like I said the E and A are very similar. I'll stop at that as to not confuse but will explain a little more when I get to "A" shape. A is a beauty because if you smash it as a barre it gives tons of options including playing lead out of chord easily. Heck with checking for my usually spelling erros. It bedtime!





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flatlander
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 07:00:04 AM »

Flatlander, a very helpful way of explaining/understanding all these chords.  I regularly play them, put half the time don't know what they are called and never learned the basics of what notes in the scale change a major to a minor to a 7th etc.  I should definately learn those relationships as it would help a lot.  I'm going to check out your link tomorrow.

I still think learning to move some of the other chords up the neck is good to know, even if the resulting chord is really the same as a barred A, E, or D chord played on a different fret.  Presently, I only really play 1st position chords, barred A-Am-A7, or barred E-Em-E7 chords when I play rythym in our band.  I never really move the basic D chord up the neck but I want to learn to do that plus the C and C7 chords for more versatility and ability to add fills and embellishments with whatever free finger is available.

Kurt
If you're in a full band it works well to use chopped down chords that are so versitile. It's not like you have to fill the whole range and all the things you can do with them really add to rythym. In fact you may be staying out of conflicts with rest of band by chopping down too.
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2011, 07:11:58 AM »

AArgh.  Too much for me to absorb for tonite, but definitely appreciated.  I've been sitting here in front of the computer with my L-07 trying out all of your charts and it's great stuff.  (Doesn't help that I'm on my 3rd glass of left over Xmas wine)   hic

Just to clarify one thing you mentioned, it was I who talked about moving the C7 in first position down to make the B7, but I'm sure Jonathon is way ahead of me on that one anyways.

I'm going to carry on following your suggestions tomorrow and use this thread as a helpful reference in the future.  I think this will be very helpful to many others besides myself.  Looking forward to your post on the A shapes you hinted at.

I've never consciously practised or mastered finessing my playing to select just certain strings to any great extent, but have done so just by learning certain tunes.  What I like is that I am a flatpicker like yourself and so what you suggest makes much sense to me.

Kurt

PS, just saw your last post before posting this reply so yes, I'm thinking this will be great to try for my rhythm playing in our band.

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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2011, 11:30:57 AM »

...a lot of people including GA-ME find good use in using full shapes.

Matt, I rarely use a full barre chord as they tie up too many fingers. I usually rely on the thumb wrap to grab the bass notes and then grab the notes I need to outline the chord. I like to have fingers loose to grab melody notes and play my patterns over the chord. I do think it is a great idea to be ABLE to make the full barre shapes, and to change between them freely using the whole barre chord, because it teaches the fingers to obey. The movable D is probably the hardest to get used to for most folks followed by the movable G. However, as you said a strong pinkie is one of the most important things to devlop and being able to make the movable D and movable G full barres goes a long way to making that pinkie obey!
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2011, 11:59:22 AM »

If anybody's checking these out let me know and I'll go thru A shape. It'll take a couple hours and I love doing it because I learn something everytime I think about the stuff, but if nobody's going thru it, I've got plenty of other musical things to do this weekend including checking out my Bose L1 that came in yesterday,
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« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2011, 04:32:20 PM »

I'm finding it very useful indeed. I printed the entire thread so I could study it by the woodstove (really). I can't say I fully understand all of it yet, but I will. So I'm not in a hurry for the A shape but if the content is being pulled from a previous thread and/or it isn't ridiculously burdensome, then I'm interested in learning it. Peter.
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« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2011, 05:09:08 PM »

I'm finding it very useful indeed. I printed the entire thread so I could study it by the woodstove (really). I can't say I fully understand all of it yet, but I will. So I'm not in a hurry for the A shape but if the content is being pulled from a previous thread and/or it isn't ridiculously burdensome, then I'm interested in learning it. Peter.

Google the CAGED system and then have fun...
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flatlander
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2011, 05:35:18 PM »

Cool, That's all I wanted to hear. "A" has a ton of things you can do with it.  A little busy but I will post when I get chance. I enjoy sharing stuff it took me decades to figure out. It may not be super thorough but it gives a cheap and dirty way of understanding what you're doing. Mainly based on just really understanding how open E, A and D are built. Even moreso, start with just the fretted notes of those chords. Once you understand them you can figure out how to expand out to the treble or bass side strings. Also how 2 use pieces of chords because you can see a couple notes as how they would relate to a chord. Keep plugging. Once I finally started understanding some of this it improved my playing tremendously. I play from the heart and by ear but knowing these tools helps let the heart out. Some people can do it without having a clue of what they are doing. I had to get idea and frame work to work with in. I don't play too fancy of stuff. If I really knew what I was doing, I'd be playing jazz. But these things help a lot with country, rock, folk, blues which is what I play. (because I can't play Jazz which to me is what the big boys can do, and I love it)   I may start another thread since I'm rather hijacking this one and stuff will go beyond original topic, so watch for that. If I do I'll stick note in here.  matt
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flatlander
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2011, 07:38:59 PM »

Google the CAGED system and then have fun...
Not to poo poo CAGED by any means. But to GET STARTED on understanding how chords are made, I like to just keep it simple. If you start with just E A D it's easier because they are really the same shape chord just moved across the strings. The intervals are the same between the fretted notes and they all go V-I-III from bass to treble, on fretted notes. So if you learn one, you've learned all three. Then to boot, to me, D and C are really the same thing.  I consider C shape a fully extended D. And the lower bass notes of a D shape on strings 4 and 5, to be borrowed from the E shape below it. (this is all just how I see it and not saying that it would be best for anyone else, just a different perspective maybe)
Also the bottom line to anyone this confuses is that less is more to me. 3 shapes instead of 5 is where my thought process comes from. Cheating? perhaps but get to same place CHORD wise.
Look at the diagrahm below. I see all the notes between fret 2 and fret 5 (except 1st string 5th fret) to be one shape that includes D and C shape. I call it D because it wins 3-2 on # of notes from
"standard" shape. So Iv'e ditched one seperate chord shape. Now jump up to frets 12 and 15. There you can see the 2 notes out of the standard D shape. But what are they really? They are borrowed
from the stand alone E shape.

Now, whats my excuse for ditching the G shape? It's pretty much an "A" shape pieced together with lower portion of "E" shape.  And especially for my chord thoughts, doesn't help much especially since I primarily use the V-!-III  on adjacent strings as my reference, (the 3 fretted notes of open E, A and D chords.) It's great to borrow pices of a chord from the shape below or above and a good way to explore and find new ways to make chords. But my standard reference, starting point is just the 3 shapes.
 Now, I'm no CAGED system expert but know that lots of times it is used as a way to find scales for solo playing. That is a completely different thing and maybe very useful in filling in gaps that may be left by looking only at 3 shapes.  That's just how I see fret board. I'd love to hear if others have different ways of seeing it and showing me what I may be missing (as it relates to chords) from CAGED.
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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2011, 10:09:45 PM »

Flat this is really wonderful of you.Keep up the great job.
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2011, 11:34:30 PM »

WOW!!!  You guys took my question and RAN, expanding it in ways that's over my head. I love it!!! I know that down the road, as my abilities improve, I'll be coming back to review this stuff.

I did try out slidin' up the C shape to make D, E, etc., and it was definitely doable with some work. On the other hand, I couldn't slide G up (yet), which didn't surprise me, as it took me over 4 months this year for my G major to ring clear.

Hmmm. What else can I think of to ask...?

Thanks again. 
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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2011, 12:06:39 AM »

I did try out slidin' up the C shape to make D, E, etc., and it was definitely doable with some work. On the other hand, I couldn't slide G up (yet), which didn't surprise me, as it took me over 4 months this year for my G major to ring clear.
Hmmm. What else can I think of to ask...?
Please ask questions! That's how I learn and will help me get more out of it.  Did you used the chopped down version of C shape when moving up the neck? It's as easy as can be and if you understand how it made you can always add to either side of it if you need more. If the 3 notes are enough for what you're doing you can rock out with it. Also you can let the 1st string ring open when sliding below diagram up 2 frets to E chord and when taking shape up to 9th fret to make A chord. Other places too you can let it ring open where it want be a basic triad anymore but
the open E will fit in as a 6th or whatever other flavor it might be in a particular position.
1/--------x----------------------------
2/--------3--------------------------
3/--------2---------------------------
4/--------4----------------------------
5/--------x----------------------------
6/---------x----------------------------

As far as moving entire open G shape up neck..That's hard! I don't do it. I consider it an A shape and get what bass note I need, but playing both of those bass notes on 5th and 6th strings...
well call me lazy if you want. But I am seriously hoping Ga-Me will rebuke me and show advantages of that shape up neck so I won't be able to justify my laziness. Seriously! The open G shape however IS great and a highly abusable thing. But if I need it up the neck.....there's a thing called a capo.  bigrin
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flatlander
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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2011, 01:24:58 PM »

OK Here's "A" shape,

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

First off this is most important thing. Realize that E-A and D are the same chord shape really just moved across the strings. The fact that the 2nd string,B, is tuned to a different interval that the rest of the strings just forces the note played on it to raise up one fret as you move chord across strings,  to make up for fact that it is tuned half step lower. On Mandolin intervals are the same, so you can keep chord shape the same, and and since all notes go up a 5th and stay relitive to each other, the chord goes up a 5th like from C to G. The B string on guitar is what distorts the shape as you move across strings.  If you understand above, then understand how chords are built, you can understand a whole mess of chords. If you want to review how chords are built, you can reference back to this thread and the 2nd post.   http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=23857.0

Ok A. first off just open A This time on the left I put what degree of scale the fretted note is for major triad. Then you can see why chord name changes, (IF YOU READ ABOVE REFERENCED POST!)
It's rather cluttered because of all the options but keep seeing the  main shape on 2nd fret strings 2-3-4. I tried to turn them red but didn't work for some reason.

V  1/------------- -(2)---(3)-(4)-(5)------------------------------------------(2) A6 (3) A7 (4) A Maj 7 (5) A but with a chimey root A note on top
III 2/ --(0)(1)------2----(3)---------------------------------------------------  (0) A add2  (1) Am (3) Asus
I   3/---(0)(1) -----2---------(4) (5)------------------------------------------- (0) A7 (1) A Maj7 (4) A add2
V  4/------------ ---2--------((4)-(5)------------------------------------------ (4) A6  (5) A7
    5/---(0)------ -(2)---(3)- (4)------------------------------------------
    6/---(0)------ -(2)---(3)---------------------------------------------
First off with out even having to understand chord contruction, just play with that incredible arsenal of notes you have readily available. You can catch the entire melody of a lot of songs while holding shape, IF MAKING "A" BY BARRING IT WITH 1ST FINGER. Or Improvised leads or plenty of bass lines on bottom 2 bass strings.  Obviously if using the notes below 2nd fret you'll have to make chord with individual fingers. I'm  just going to show some of the chord names assigned when certain notes change. Remember you can use this same formula when applied to fretted notes of Open E and Open D shape.
   Otherwise just know that all these notes are available and more, and play around with just adding them in with adding them in.
 The chords made by adding or changing certain notes are ones I may generally hold as a chord perhaps. But also you can fly around on them just playing lead. The notes on the bass strings,5&6
can be added as bass lines. When smash barring the A shape you can slide it up neck and still use a bunch of the notes shown is this open shape. Genereally speaking, the ones on fret 2 and above are easily reached when entire shape moved up neck.  To demononstrate put a little 3 chord rock and roll or blues song in your head. Start with the open A chord then slide entire shape up to 7th fret and 9th fret for your other 2 chords.
 Folks got to stop here. I wanted to show a lot more about using up the neck and ways to move up the neck in sequence but.. Tons of stuff to do this weekend. There is so much more. Start understanding how these chords are made, or even just play with adding all these notes that are available and you can broaden your expression. After a while it comes natural. Bye for now and Happy New Years. and be safe! cop
          
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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2011, 03:27:07 PM »

Mods can you all make this a sticky thing.This is a wonderful way of helping others and I'd hate to see it get lost!!!Maybe a sub heading at the top of the page.Flat you need to be giving lessons.This has been the best written teaching thing and your really good at explaining.Thanks again for your effort.
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2011, 03:32:43 PM »

Can't stand it. Here's a way to tie the 3 A shapes together working you way up neck. You can use any portion of it or run all the way up (or down) the neck with it. The song could be holding an A chord thru entire sequence and this allows for movement even while staying on same chord. You can do the same type of thing starting with D shape or E shape. There are other ways to do it and you may want to add more 7ths or different thing but this gives you idea. Since this is out of A often the unfretted strings can ring open if you wish.
1/-------------------------------
2/-----------2-------------------
3/-----------2------------------  1st shape A
4/-----------2-------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/----------3--------------------
3/----------4-------------------- connecting chord
4/----------2--------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/----------5--------------------
3/----------6-------------------- 2nd shape (out of E shaped chord scooted up to be A
4/----------7-------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/-----------7-------------------
3/-----------6------------------- connecting chord (A6)
4/-----------7-------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/-----------8-------------------
3/-----------6------------------
4/-----------7------------------- connecting chord (A7)
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/-----------9-------------------
3/-----------9------------------- connecting chord (that's all I'm gonna say, call it D if you want)
4/-----------9-------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/-----------10-------------------
3/------------9--------------------
4/------------11------------------- 3rd shape I call it my D shape, as explained previously, scooted up to A    sounds cool with unfretted strings ringing open
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/-----------12-------------------
3/-----------9------------------- sounds cool with unfretted strings ringing open
4/-----------11-------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------

1/-------------------------------
2/----------14--------------------
3/----------14-------------------- And all the way back to original shape an octave up.
4/----------14--------------------
5/------------------------------
6/------------------------------
Like I said, other ways to do it but with these chopped down chords, none of them are any harder than making a simple open D chord or something. And you can always add to the sides if you want.
Also Like I side. you can start by just going back and forth between 2 of the positions. Then 3 or 4. Use what pieces of it you want then once you get the idea, FIND MORE!  BYE
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2011, 03:36:44 PM »

Mods can you all make this a sticky thing.This is a wonderful way of helping others and I'd hate to see it get lost!!!Maybe a sub heading at the top of the page.Flat you need to be giving lessons.This has been the best written teaching thing and your really good at explaining.Thanks again for your effort.
Of course I like that idea. Not because of ego but because theres a lot of stuff it took me decades to figure out and could save some one a lot of time. BUT if it is going to be a sticky, do me a favor and let me make a new thread first using the good stuff from 3rd and beyond thread, combined with this, and removing some of unneeded posts. Just combine and clean up first.  matt
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2011, 06:38:16 PM »

Lets put some of these notes and forms into practical use. Just go with 12 bar blues or boogie progression

1/----------------------------
2/---------2-------------------
3/---------2-------------------
4/---------2-------(4)------ while hanging on A just put (4) on and off.
5/-----------------------------
6/----------------------------

1/----------------------------
2/---------2-------------------
3/---------2-------------------
4/---------2-------(4)-(5)(4) ----- while hanging on A walk 4th string from fret 2-4-5-4
5/-----------------------------
6/----------------------------

1/----------------------------
2/---------2-------------------
3/---------2-------------------
4/---------2------------------.
5/---(0) (2) (3) (4)---- When getting ready to change to iV chord or D, walk up 5th string from frets 0-2-3-4 after getting to 4 you change chords to D-
6/----------------------------

1/----------------------------
2/---------2-------------------
3/---------2-------------------
4/---------2-------------------
5/-----------------------------
6/----(0) (2)--------------- off and on when hangin on A. Same as example 1 but in bass.

1/----------------------------
2/---------2-------------------
3/---------2-------------------
4/---------2-------------------
5/-----------------------------
6/----(0) (2)--(3) (2)------------- off and on when hangin on A. Same as example 2 but in bass.

on 5th fret
1/---------------------------------------------------------  This is a walk up leading into chord change to IV as shown on bass strings but usings whole shape.
2/----------5------7------8-------10-----10------------
3/----------6------6------6--------9------9--------------- The last chord is a D9 so you've made your change there to next chord.
4/----------7------7------7-------11-----10------------   Notice how easy to go from the A (2nd to last shape) to the D9 You can do the whole I IV  V there while barely moving fingers
5/-------------------------------------------9---------------- The last 2 shapes are your I and IV and simply scoot last shape up 2 frets for your V
6/-------------------------------------------------------

more later
1/----------------------------
2/----------------------------
3/----------------------------
4/-----------------------------
5/-----------------------------
6/----------------------------
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2011, 09:23:18 PM »

Mods can you all make this a sticky thing.This is a wonderful way of helping others and I'd hate to see it get lost!!!Maybe a sub heading at the top of the page.Flat you need to be giving lessons.This has been the best written teaching thing and your really good at explaining.Thanks again for your effort.



Done !
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2011, 09:33:38 PM »

Now if we all go back and delete our posts in this thread we can clear out the clutter.  Me first.
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Roger


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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2012, 12:05:02 AM »

I have sent a PM to Lynn requesting that he let me combine this with 3rds and beyond thread. Do a little cleaning up and then post IT as sticky. Would be a more logical order and hace the chord theory 101 at beginning so reast would make sense to those who don't know about intervals and chord theory. The thead would start with 3rds, expand out to triads then explain or show how to make you own, more full blown chords. Along with little tricks along the way.
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10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.
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