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Author Topic: Fingers 234 for open EAD chords???  (Read 8368 times)
stollie
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« on: December 24, 2011, 04:20:13 PM »

Hi all,
Newbie player wondering if some of the experienced players use fingers 234 for the open EAD chords.

These past months, I've been playing open EAD major chords and variants (minor, 7th, minor 7th) with fingers 123, with index finger as anchor whenever possible.

This past week, someone told me that if I played those same chords with fingers 234, it's easier to slide those shapes up to play the barre chords, as those fingers will already "know" the shapes, and index finger is already free and ready to bar.

Though it seem to make sense, retraining my fingers will be a big shift in gears for me, like taking several steps backward.

Any thoughts?
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flatlander
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 04:40:35 PM »

It's good to play both ways depending on what your doing.  For what you're talking about I would be more inclined to use that mainly for "E" shape chord that's going up neck or coming down to the open position.. Definitely need to add using index to smash (barre) an "A" shaped chord. That leaves a ton of stuff your other fingers can be doing above or on top of chord. From R&R rhythm licks to plating melody or lead. Can be handy for "D" too making a smooth transition to Bm or whatever the VIm would be up neck. Yea you already have the one so don't abandon it, just add different ways to make chords. Sometimes you don't need the full barre, sometimes you do etc.
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2011, 05:05:05 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 05:32:10 PM »

Hi stollie,

This is a great question.

Hi all,
Newbie player wondering if some of the experienced players use fingers 234 for the open EAD chords.

These past months, I've been playing open EAD major chords and variants (minor, 7th, minor 7th) with fingers 123, with index finger as anchor whenever possible.

This past week, someone told me that if I played those same chords with fingers 234, it's easier to slide those shapes up to play the barre chords, as those fingers will already "know" the shapes, and index finger is already free and ready to bar.

Though it seem to make sense, retraining my fingers will be a big shift in gears for me, like taking several steps backward.

Any thoughts?


When working out arrangements I consider the movement of my fingers across the fretboard. That includes paying attention to what comes before and after a particular chord. Sometimes it makes sense to use fingers 123 for a chord shape, and other times 234, or some other combination. For me, the decision is influenced by things like a sense of feeling of flow as I move from one chord to another.  

I know players who bring all fingers for a chord down onto the fretboard simultaneously. You can see the chord shape in their fingers before they land.  I'm all over the place when I play and sometimes I like to keep one or two fingers (fretting hand finger) anchored  as I move through a couple of chord changes. This precludes the all-the-fingers-rise-and-fall-at-the-same-time approach. It also means that the progression of chord changes (rather than an individual chord) dictates how I will place my fingers for a specific sound.

You mentioned "with index finger as anchor wherever possible".
I will often use my third finger as the anchor - especially if I'm working through a progession of chords where the D shape is the core.  My point is, picking an anchor finger can be useful. Being able to use different fingers as anchors can open different approaches.



Does that help?
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GA-ME
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2011, 06:55:27 PM »

Hi all,
Newbie player wondering if some of the experienced players use fingers 234 for the open EAD chords.

If you can use fingers 2,3, and 4, to make your C, A, G, E, and D chords you open the possibility to turn them all into movable forms. As a rule, you should try to become comfortable in fingering any chord with any possible combination of fretting hand fingers. The more independence you develop in your fingers, the better player you can become.
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flatlander
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 01:57:27 AM »

Hi stollie,

This is a great question.

When working out arrangements I consider the movement of my fingers across the fretboard. That includes paying attention to what comes before and after a particular chord. Sometimes it makes sense to use fingers 123 for a chord shape, and other times 234, or some other combination. For me, the decision is influenced by things like a sense of feeling of flow as I move from one chord to another.  

I know players who bring all fingers for a chord down onto the fretboard simultaneously. You can see the chord shape in their fingers before they land.  I'm all over the place when I play and sometimes I like to keep one or two fingers (fretting hand finger) anchored  as I move through a couple of chord changes. This precludes the all-the-fingers-rise-and-fall-at-the-same-time approach. It also means that the progression of chord changes (rather than an individual chord) dictates how I will place my fingers for a specific sound.

You mentioned "with index finger as anchor wherever possible".
I will often use my third finger as the anchor - especially if I'm working through a progession of chords where the D shape is the core.  My point is, picking an anchor finger can be useful. Being able to use different fingers as anchors can open different approaches.



Does that help?
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stollie
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 04:55:27 PM »

Thanks for all the useful replies, even in the middle of the busy holiday season... you guys are great! 

I wil continue to work on these chords with 234, but will also retain the 123 approach also. Like GA-ME said, I'll try to develop finger independence by using different fingers for combinations.

Thanks again, and a safe and wonderful holiday season to all.
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flatlander
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 10:26:07 AM »

Don't leave out the smashed A. Getting fret 2 on strings 2-3-4 with index finger.  It opens up a whole bunch of stuff. Your other fingers are free to add notes across all 6 strings.
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GA-ME
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 12:21:18 PM »

Don't leave out the smashed A. Getting fret 2 on strings 2-3-4 with index finger.  It opens up a whole bunch of stuff. Your other fingers are free to add notes across all 6 strings.

Which brings you to the long A form and the triplet patterns you can work from that postion!
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stollie
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2011, 05:18:01 PM »

Thanks, guys.

I'm also trying out using 3rd finger to bar DGB strings for A major. It's so-so thus far but I'm sure it will come around.
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2011, 05:24:48 PM »

Hi stollie,

Thanks, guys.

I'm also trying out using 3rd finger to bar DGB strings for A major. It's so-so thus far but I'm sure it will come around.


I have seen people use the third and fourth fingers for this. That is: the third finger covers DG strings and the fourth finger covers the B string. This allows the fingers to come down at an angle closer to perpendicular to the fingboard, and lessens the likelihood of finger-muting the high E string.

On the rare occasions I do this, it is because I'm doing a full or partial barre with my index finger, and I really need the high E string to ring out cleanly.
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flatlander
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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2011, 07:23:08 PM »

Thanks, guys.

I'm also trying out using 3rd finger to bar DGB strings for A major. It's so-so thus far but I'm sure it will come around.

That will put you on your way 2 making a barred B 2 frets up (and every other chord you get as you scoot it up the neck) with first finger getting the bass strings.
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 08:27:53 PM »

That will put you on your way 2 making a barred B 2 frets up (and every other chord you get as you scoot it up the neck) with first finger getting the bass strings.
Agree. This feels ackward at first - which is a sure sign it is a significant change - but well worth a bit of effort each day until it becomes remarkably easy. I am currently working on getting comfortable doing the same activity moving the "c shape" up the neck. This seems to allow for some very lush and interesting chords that give new life to those same old progressions. It started for me while trying to reproduce Bruce Cockburn's "Mama Just Wants to Barrelhouse All Night Long" from the original Ottawa Folklore songbook. Just a really interesting way to play a familiar bluesy accompaniment. 
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flatlander
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2011, 09:42:51 PM »

I am currently working on getting comfortable doing the same activity moving the "c shape" up the neck. This seems to allow for some very lush and interesting chords that give new life to those same old progressions.
When you're moving the C up the neck, how do you make it? Barring all the way accross with first finger and using M. R and P to make familier C shape or just getting the 4 middle strings like this?
1/---------- x-----------------------
2/-----------3----------------------
3/-----------2----------------------
4/-----------4---------------------
5/-----------5---------------------
6/-----------x---------------------
               D
Or some other combination?
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GA-ME
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2011, 10:32:21 PM »

Flatlander, make a C chord in the first position using 2,3, and 4. Then slide up one fret and use 1 to barre at the first fret.  Blammo, a movable, closed C form taking root from fifth string.
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flatlander
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 12:27:20 AM »

Right, That's what I meant by barring with first finger. I was just wondering if that's how he made it. I generally just use the middle strings as it makes it more flexible to change chord around or add notes. Or even chop it down to just strings 2-3-4 where you can do a ton of add-on's and changes.  But I flat pick mainly too and don't always keep something going on with bass strings. I use barre chords only when I have to or if I'm playing straight rythym. Not because I have a hard time making them but because they tie too many fingers up.
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2011, 03:02:10 AM »

People, I'm learning some real good tips from this thread.  Keep em coming.

Kurt
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2011, 05:10:47 AM »

Flatlander, make a C chord in the first position using 2,3, and 4. Then slide up one fret and use 1 to barre at the first fret.  Blammo, a movable, closed C form taking root from fifth string.
                                              A good variation on this for bluesy stuff is to make a C7 chord in the first position like this:
e/------ 0----                               Then slide down one fret and remove 1st finger and play only the middle 4 strings to make a B7
B/-------1----1st finger                   Or slide up the fretboard  from the original position shown only now the index finger becomes your barre and you are playing 7th chords
G/-------3----4th finger                   with the root still on the 5th string.  Again, you only play the middle 4 strings.  I find this position relatively easy to finger.
D/-------2----2nd finger
A/-------3----3rd  finger               While playing the barred chords up the neck you can noodle around with your 4th finger to add some embellishments on top of the chord.
E/-------0----                                 Hope this makes sense.
              
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2011, 05:19:27 AM »

People, I'm learning some real good tips from this thread.  Keep em coming.

Kurt
  I gotcha on you're post that you snuck in while typing. and do same thing, strong pinky is good when other fingers tied up)
 and dang you. I love talking about chords amd will spend more time than I have talking about them. Hopefully others will chime in as my method came from "cheating gone wild"
I'll get to the "c" shape soon and If I don't fall out go on about the highly abusable "A: shape. But let me take a minute and preface by saying That I generally look at everything in terms of being 3 main chord shapes not 5. That isn't to say that the "G" shape and "C" shape aren't valid.  I just know E,A,D pretty much inside out and I see the "C" shape as a "D" And G shape as an "A".
 Both G and C just have notes added on top of A and D preimarily in the bass to make shape.
1/--------3----------------------------
2/-------(0)---------------------------   In open G the notes inside ( ) contain the underlying "A" shape. The rest IN THE WAY I USE THEM, is gravy on top.
3/-------(0)----------------------------
4/-------(0)-----------------------------
5/--------2----------------------------
6/--------3-----------------------------

1/-------(0)----------------------------- In open C the notes in ( ) contain the D shape.
2/-------(1)----------------------------
3/-------(0)-----------------------------
4/--------2-----------------------------
5/--------3----------------------------
6/-------------------------------------
Don't take as definitive because a lot of people including GA-ME find good use in using full shapes. Like I said, this is cheating gone wild. I'll be anxious to hear of good uses for my discarded shapes.
especially ones that done break your hand! :)

Further More my 3 main shapes shapes E,A and D I see as the same shape just moved across the strings. Huh?  I'm going to copy and paste from previous post explaining this. It's a very important concept that a lot of people don't understand. It comes from this thread, which has has much, much more in it, starting with basic understanding of how chords are built which is needed for the rest to make sense.     http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=23857.0   I'll leave this as one post lest I lose it before saving and start working on the next one which will be getting back to original thought of "C" shape going up neck.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The purpose of this post is to make clear that open E open A and open D are really the same chord shape on different strings.
The shape is changed as it moves across strings because the interval between 3rd and 2nd string is different that the rest as demonstrated when you tune a guitar to itself, the old fashion way.  The 2nd purpose is to show what other chords we can make from these shapes and seeing that relatively speaking were doing the same things to each chord when we change it. The wicked
B (for bad) string tries to hide this fact from us, but he SHALL be exposed! My start will be easy as I cut and past this from previous
post.

So here's all 3 chord forms. Note that the 1st, 3rd and 5th are all in the same relative position across the strings.
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D

Now we'll start making different type chords out of these shapes at the same time so we can compare them and see that they are all changing in the same way.
 
1/-----------------                 1/-----------------           1/-----1---------bIII
2/-----------------                 2/------1-------bIII         2/----3----------I                                  
3/------0----------bIII            3/...---2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          Em                                     Am                         Dm
We turned it into a minor by flatting the 3rd. On all three shapes the highest fretted note lowered 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/----3---------IV
2/-----------------                 2/-----.3-------IV           2/----3----------I                                  
3/------2----------IV             3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
    E sus                                    Asus                      Dsus
We turned it into a sus (4th note added) chord by raising the 3rd 1 fret.

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/------2-------III           2/-----2----------VII                                  
3/------1----------III              3/-----1---------VII         3/-----2----------V
4/------1---------- VII            4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          EMaj7                            AMaj7                        D Maj 7
We turned them all into major sevenths by lowering root one fret. Thats a tip to remember. The maj 7 note is right below the
root. Find root and count down, makes it easy to find. For Dom (b7) just go down 2 frets (or steps)  Tip: Remember that
when making a chord, a rule is that you don't have 2 notes a 1/2 step apart. This shape introduces that situation when you play
open notes with it. Use at your own discretion and risk when including the open notes in this shape. I could say more but I won't
right now. Another note. The EM7 may not seem practical and awkward but we're gonna move these up the neck later so it's
important to know where Maj 7 note is.

Another Maj 7 out of this shape, putting major 7th on top so to speak.

                                                                           ( 4)  "Help!!! I fell off the world! I told you the earth was flat!"
1/-----------------                 1/-------4-------VII          1/-----2---------III
2/------4----------VII             2/------2-------III           2/-----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/------2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
          E                                     A                                        D
Ok on E I can't really reach it, but again, we'll be going up the neck where the frets are closer, very do-able up there.
Remember with A hopefully you are barreing across 2nd fret with index. If you don't do that, then start. It's a pain at fist but
 WAY, WAY important. With the D shape, obviously the poor fellow fell into space.
Remember the important thing we're doing with all these is watch the shapes change in the same manner!

1/-----------------                 1/-----------------            1/-----2---------III
2/-----------------                 2/-------2-------III          2/----1----------bVII                                  
3/------1----------III             3/------0---------bVII      3/-----2----------V
4/------0----------bVII           4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
     E7                                     A7                             D7
Kept lowering the Maj 7 down to Dom 7    Can get nice little move doing that BTW. Try playing D-DMa7-D7.

1/-----------------                 1/--------3------bVII        1/-----2---------III
2/------3---------- bVII          2/-------2-------III           2/----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/-----2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------
       E7                                     A 7                         D (not playing this round)
Putting flatted 7th on top.
 
open D's revenge!

1/------2-----------III                
2/------0-----------VI                                                
3/------2---------  V          
4/----------------                
5/---------------              
6/-----------------                
        D6  
I show that not just as a joke, but when the other chords go up the neck, they'll be able to do that trick as well once
the nut is out of the way.  

Well I guess it's not too much revenge cause the other 2 chords can do this.  

1/-----------------                 1/-------2------VI           1/-----2---------III
2/------2---------- VI             2/------2-------III          2/----3----------I                                  
3/------1----------III              3/------2---------I           3/---2----------V
4/------2---------- I               4/-----2----------V          4/-----------------
5/------2----------V               5/-----------------            5/-----------------                                                              
6/-----------------                  6/-----------------            6/-----------------                          
       E6                                    A6                          D "*!@##!@#"








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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2011, 06:06:22 AM »

Flatlander, a very helpful way of explaining/understanding all these chords.  I regularly play them, put half the time don't know what they are called and never learned the basics of what notes in the scale change a major to a minor to a 7th etc.  I should definately learn those relationships as it would help a lot.  I'm going to check out your link tomorrow.

I still think learning to move some of the other chords up the neck is good to know, even if the resulting chord is really the same as a barred A, E, or D chord played on a different fret.  Presently, I only really play 1st position chords, barred A-Am-A7, or barred E-Em-E7 chords when I play rythym in our band.  I never really move the basic D chord up the neck but I want to learn to do that plus the C and C7 chords for more versatility and ability to add fills and embellishments with whatever free finger is available.

Kurt
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