Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bigsby string angle at the bridge  (Read 2559 times)
ST
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1751


WWW

Ignore
« on: October 16, 2011, 11:17:45 PM »

Hi PM33AUD,


OK, just got back from the music store and tried out some Bigsbys...

B3:  This I actually liked more because the trem arm is in easy access and more towards the neck - about 1-2" closer than the B7.  The only issue is that of string angle.  I only tried this on a Gretsch hollow-body and the saddle was SUPER high (I think over an inch) so even w/o the extra bar the B7 has, the string angle was still steep enough for strings not to pop out.  Unfortunately, neither store I went to had a solid-body with a Bigsby so I couldn't get a feel for the string angle - but I will say it's gonna be much less and am still a bit worried about strings popping off the saddle on a solidbody electric.  That being said, I liked this one better still.  It also looks nicer IMO.

B7:  About the same feel as the B3 but because the whole bridge assembly is further back and shorter, the trem arm is kinda too far back and not as easy to access as the B3 making it a little harder to use and def not as natural.  The additional bar of the B7 allows a really steep string angle though.

Tuning seemed just dandy on both and were super smooth.  I like it!

Here's photo of the break angle on my Bigsby (not on an RS-4).  (You can ignore the Roland pickup in front of the bridge. It has no bearing on this discussion).



I find the angle is too shallow and that becomes apparent when I pull the strings (high E and occasionally the low E), but this happens because I don't use a pick and sometimes I do some fairly exuberant pinch type plucking.

Have you had this problem with other Bigsbys?
Logged

ST
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1751


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 11:44:20 PM »

Hi Kurt,

I should have been clearer about my intent in starting this as a separate discussion (separate from the Forum V RS-4) discussion.

I'd encourage you to post your thoughts on this in the Forum V  RS-4 discussion (too).

Logged

L07 Shooting Star
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3718




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 11:55:20 PM »

Hi ST.
I got that.  I actually did post it there too.  Just tried to kill two birds with one stone. (substitute post for stone).  Just deleted my previous post in this thread.

Kurt
Logged

"Badges?  We don't need no stinkin' badges."

Became a Shooting Star when I got my 1st guitar.
Back in '66, I was 13 and that was my fix.
Still shooting for stardom after all this time.
If I never make it, I'll still be fine.


 
ST
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1751


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 12:10:25 AM »

Hi again Kurt,

I'm definately not in favor of a Bigsby of any kind on the proposed Forum V - RS4, for several reasons.  The string angle for one.  The inherent problems with it returning to pitch.  The added weight.  The added busy look to the guitar.  The added cost.  My feeling is this can be added later by those who want to further customize their RS4s.

Outside of the very specific context of the Forum V RS-4, I thought the same thing about Bigsbys until I got one. It just came stock on a guitar I got recently.

Specifics: I think I have a Bigsby B3G

I didn't anticipate the string angle issue but while it's a bother, I'm getting used to approaching the guitar differently and it's less of an issue now than when I first got it. I don't think the string angle is significantly shallower than a couple of my other archtops, but the isssue is that I was getting all revved up when I was playing this one.

Returning to Pitch
I have had no issues with the guitar returning to pitch.  None.

The Weight
The weight is approximately 296 grams/10.4 oz (from the Bigsby website) I dug around to see what a standard stop tailpiece weighs and I came up with 122 grams for this Schaller Stop Tailpiece. Difference - about 6.1 ounces.  I don't know if you would notice the difference. Somebody with a better head for Weber-Fechner Law would have to predict this.

Busy look to the guitar?
I agree, I used to think that these were very busy looking, but having been overcome by the sound, all is forgiven as it now feels like part of the flow of the instrument. I have other guitars with tremolo systems. This is the only one I really like to use.

Cost
It looks like it would run you about the same price as a callaham bridge.

Adding it later?
If I were going in on a custom build I'd really appreciate having it as an option.  I just wouldn't want to risk goofing up an otherwise great guitar by adding a Bigsby later. I'd also prefer to have a factory supplied case that fit.
Logged

PM33AUD
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 12:19:08 AM »

RE: the bigsby for the Forum V... I am certain if it's offered at all it will be an option - I seriously doubt they'd chose a bigsby as a 'stock' bridge for all the Forum V since it is a bit of a 'specific' taste I'd say.  I think I may choose not on the Forum V if the B3 is used.  The right bridge to choose for a solidbody with the neck angle on the RS-4 really is the B7... that's why bigsby made it.  I will say that playing both the B3 and B7 (as I mentioned above) I like the B3 better.  We should see what the Larrivee folks say on the matter.

I don't mind the look of it at all - looks like steampunk or sth.  I am used to Floyd Rose type bridges in my electrics and while they are sweet, a Bigsby is much more smooth to use and because its range is far less, nicer to use for vibrato based effects.

Logged
Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14015




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 02:31:18 AM »

Big Bigsby fan here been playing them since 1970 when I got my first one and have never been impressed with any of the other one's out there.The shollow B3 string to bridge is not a big deal.I have installed them on LP and well as B7's both have nice the qualities the B7's down pull of the front bar adds some string tension and for some of the players prefer having some it screwed to the top.The B3 has less tension added.As for them going out of tune the first thing anyone has to do is to learn one main thing,don't let it bonce back or just let it go after pushing it down if you glide back no more loss of tuning then a standard strat type.The plus side if you break a string the rest of the guitar is still playable as oppose to a Flyod type.
 +1 for what ST said if you want a Bigsby get one if you add it latter to a guitar that has a combo bridge stop tailpiece you will have 2 extra hole's.
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14015




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 02:36:07 AM »

One other thing to consider is the arch of the top of the RS4 isn't that much and maybe Matthew might want to check to see if the B5 would work as I have used them also on LP type guitars.
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
PM33AUD
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 04:43:09 AM »

unclrob,

You do bring up a very good point regarding the B3 not needing the additional holes and if you go Bigsby, you have 2 holes out in the open doing nothing.  Adding the stop tailpiece is an easy modification.  I was looking at the B7 with the 'vibroplate' adapter although I havent used it or seen it in person... this plate allows you to use the stop tailpiece holes to mount the B7 to the top.  It ends up raising the bridge anyway, which to me, might bring it to about where the B3 would end up anyway ?!

The other thing I was thinking is maybe the B3 ends up being better since it has less string angle may 'slide' across the saddles easier.

ST, are your saddles grooved and they still pop out?

Also, the ones I tried today the whole saddle assembly was kinda 'floating' so the strings didn't have to slide too much across the saddle - the whole bridge kinda rocked.  On a regular tuneomatic, the bridge wouldn't do this - esp the tone pros one with the set screws to lock it on the post.  Do the strings slide well over a regular tune-o-matic saddle?!  I would think the wound strings would 'ching' a bit.

Sorry for all the questions!
Logged
ST
Gold Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1751


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 05:21:06 AM »

Hi PM33AUD,


ST, are your saddles grooved and they still pop out?

The saddles are grooved. The issue is that sometimes I get excited and really dig in with my fingers and pull up more than across. I think part of the issue is that I wear the guitar fairly high-up and have a lot of arch in my ringers so when I got wailin' I can get my finger (I) under the top E string. It's only happened a few times, but I've also managed to dislodge the low E string with my thumb. Now that I think of it - it was probably in a drop-D tuning.

Quote

Also, the ones I tried today the whole saddle assembly was kinda 'floating' so the strings didn't have to slide too much across the saddle - the whole bridge kinda rocked.  On a regular tuneomatic, the bridge wouldn't do this - esp the tone pros one with the set screws to lock it on the post.  Do the strings slide well over a regular tune-o-matic saddle?!  I would think the wound strings would 'ching' a bit.


I don't hear, see, or feel any binding as the strings move across the saddles. It all just seems to work.  As you can tell from the picture above, the bridge and saddles are stationary.

Does that help?
Logged

Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14015




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 02:18:13 PM »

PM33AUD I haven't checked out or seen the vibroplate either.I've used tune-a-matic bridge's with Bigsby and never had any issue.Graph Teck make's graphite replacement saddle's for them and if there is a concern on anyone's part they are easy enough to change to them.As for the floating style vibroto it has been around for a long time and they work fairly well.One other thing if you are overly concerned about the guitar going out of tune Grover make's a nice set of locking tuners that I installed on a semi-hollow Epiphone with a Bigsby and you could wank the snot out of the Bigsby with out it going out of tune.
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
PM33AUD
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 02:58:01 PM »

ST, yes, thanks...

I suppose at this point the only dilemma is if my playing style will have me pulling out strings often.  I play a lot in Drop D so that can't help either.
Logged
Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14015




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 04:59:35 PM »

With the correct notch of the saddle you shouldn't have any problem with a string poping out even whendropping the "E" to a "D".
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
PM33AUD
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 05:26:34 PM »

I was thinking the same thing.  Last night I was even thinking of machining a 'keyed' saddle that would make the string impossible to come out.  I could always do that if it ends up being a problem.  Some folks over the LP forum said the break angle affects the tone but most of those guys don't have any proof.  From a tuning point of view less angle is actually better.  I think the B3 may end up working out...  Anyone know of any 'production' guitars like a LP with a B3 that I might be able to hunt down and try?

Phil
Logged
Barefoot Rob
Donuts?
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 14015




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2011, 01:51:45 AM »

I've seen both an Epiphone and a Gibson LP that come stock with a Bigsby but I believe that  its either a B7 or B5 but finding one could be ruff.Some of the Gretsch solid bodies come with the B5 or the import version of it for the B3 style you'd have to look at some of the Gretsch archtops for they come with either the B3 or B7.Wish I could help out more.Oh crap I forgot that there are a few Epiphone thin hollow bodies that come with Bigsby also.On a solid body its harder to find.If I can answer any question direct please feel free to call as I have use or installed all 3 of the units on both Fender tele's,LP's and many semi solid and full hollow bodies.
Logged

A REPAIRPERSON,Still Unclrob
OM03PA
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity*Eat The Rich*, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
www.rpjguitarworks.com
Call PM me I may b
PM33AUD
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2011, 03:19:03 AM »

Been doin' some more diggin...

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=432302

Folks there prefer the B3 and those with B7's are running the strings over the tension bar, effectively bypassing it.  I think the B3 is probably a better choice... I know there's also the huge debate of the tension bar putting more downforce on the saddle giving 'better' tone but no one has been able to prove this... besides the string force has to be countered somewhere and the B3 is a solid chunk of Al.

Here's one with a B3 right off the Bigsby site:
http://www.bigsby.com/vibe/products/guitars/bigsby-by-48nrt/

The B3 also looks worlds better IMO - for the Forum V I think having less 'obstruction' is a very good thing.

Regarding tuning... I was wailing the bejesus out of the couple I played and they all stayed in tune and didn't make any weird noises... and this was on relatively cheap guitars on display at a music store.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to: