The Gibson Topics

[ducktrapper]

Can we stand a bit of humour on this subject?

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html

[abalone at last]

Martin has been using micarta fingerboards and bridges on some of there mid priced models..( up to $2000 ). Incredibly I find the tone of these guitars consistantly amazing but didn't want to pay that much for sawdust and polymer.

[ducktrapper]

Martin has been using micarta fingerboards and bridges on some of there mid priced models..( up to $2000 ). Incredibly I find the tone of these guitars consistantly amazing but didn't want to pay that much for sawdust and polymer.

Exactly. The reasoning why some guitars cost so much is construction methods and materials, isn't it? Not the name on the headstock. 

[JOYCEfromNS]

Can we stand a bit of humour on this subject?

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2011/08/new-scandal-at-doj-as-illegal-guitars-end-up-in-hands-of-mexican-drug-lords.html

Will be big trouble once armed with a JCL RS4 

[ducktrapper]

Will be big trouble once armed with a JCL RS4 

No doubt. This is the part that concerned me, however.

"We need to get to the bottom of this thing before it gets out of hand," said Issa. "We have reports that Justice is also providing Colombian cocaine gangs with AutoTune."

[abalone at last]

Great article duck....i just can't feel sorry for the cartel member standing there with his mexican strat and gets shredded by a Gibson black beauty.....however now we now why the authorities are looking into it...

[Walkerman]

Apparently, the Obama DOJ is telling Gibson that there problems will go away if they outsource jobs to overseas....

"The Gibson Guitar saga has taken a sinister turn.

It seems that the Department of Justice wasn't satisfied with merely raiding the law abiding factories of Gibson Guitar with armed agents, shutting down their operation costing them millions, and leaving the American company in the dark as to how to proceed without going out of business.

Now, according to CEO Henry Juszkiewicz, agents of the United States government are bluntly informing them that they'd be better off shipping their manufacturing labor overseas.

In an interview with KMJ AM's "The Chris Daniel Show," Juszkiewicz revealed some startling information.

CHRIS DANIEL:  Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?

HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ:  They actually wrote that in a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL:  Excuse me?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ:   They actually wrote that it a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL:  That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ:  Yes

So the government attacked them in the first place by citing obscure regulations that probably weren't violated about importation of wood. Now they are suggesting that all these problems would go away if they simply exported their labor.

Had it simply been said in passing by an agent, one could write it off as a lone sarcastic agent, trying to push buttons.  But the fact that they actually wrote it in the pleading is a level of hubris that goes well beyond over zealous law enforcement officials and passes straight into what can easily be translated as an out of control and corrupt targeting of an American corporation.

When President Obama gives his jobs speech next week, let's hope he has an answer for why our government would want to force and coerce corporations to send jobs overseas.

[unclrob]

I'd like to see that piece of paper Juszkiewicz isn't know for telling the truth.I'm sure there is more to all this then what we are getting from any media covering the story.I have heard all sorts of rumours involving Gibson and if half are true,well...

By the way thanks for keeping us up to date on this.

[Tony Burns]

To my way of thinking Gibson has a few fleas of their own -lets not judge them as innocent until we know more .

[Walkerman]

To my way of thinking Gibson has a few fleas of their own -lets not judge them as innocent until we know more .

To my way of thinking...AND...the way I was raised.....you're innocent unless proved guilty.

[JOYCEfromNS]

Apparently, the Obama DOJ is telling Gibson that there problems will go away if they outsource jobs to overseas....

When President Obama gives his jobs speech next week, let's hope he has an answer for why our government would want to force and coerce corporations to send jobs overseas.

Now without driving this topic South ( by making Political) not intention as I cannot follow the logic proposed by this position. Why would someone believe that a country would want a native company to outsource their employment to another country  What's their incentive to do this, it doesn't make sense to me and until someone can share why this might be a preferred option for any country I simply don't believe it, regardless who said it so. 

[unclrob]

To know of him is to distrust him.Just sayin if half the rumors said to me by those that know....





innocent unless proved guilty......sorry to say but not anymore
....I could go on but I have no desire to be banned for things have changed and no where for the best.I have personal proof.

[bel]

On the surface it apears assinine - I dont think any government WANTS to ship jobs over seas. What the agent is likely talking about is related to the Lacey Act.

At its core, the Lacey Act says that if any lumber is logged in violation of local law (Local as in whatever country the wood comes from) it cannot be transported (into the US or across state lines), bought, or sold in the US. The Indian Government has a law that states that wood exported from Indian must be "Finished" by Indian workers. My interpretation of what the agent is saying is that in order to comply with the Lacey Act, the part in question (Fingerboards) must be "Finished" in India.

However morally wrong, the agent is technically correct. If Gibson moved fretboard production to India, they would be in compliance with the Lacey Act of 1900.

[tadol]

This thread is still up??!!?  You couldn't make a more blatantly political anti-Obama anti-Democrat post if you tried!   OP should get banned -

This is disinformation and half truths at its ugliest. NO ONE IN THE US GOVERNMENT WOULD EVER TELL ANY BUSINESS OWNER THAT THEY NEED TO TAKE JOBS AWAY FROM THE US - PERIOD. It was Bush, and the Republicans, that set up all the tax credits specifically to reward businesses who moved their manufacturing overseas. Someone may very well have said that to meet regulations, more work needed to be done in the country of origin to the specific material prior to it being imported by Gibson - but that is to meet the laws of the other country, not ours!

Gibsons inept management are trying to put political spin on their incompetence, failure to follow procedure, and attempts to purposely evade import regulations. They were caught once, and now they are crying because they have been caught again -  at this point, I hope they throw them in jail.

[JOYCEfromNS]

On the surface it apears assinine - I dont think any government WANTS to ship jobs over seas. What the agent is likely talking about is related to the Lacey Act.

At its core, the Lacey Act says that if any lumber is logged in violation of local law (Local as in whatever country the wood comes from) it cannot be transported (into the US or across state lines), bought, or sold in the US. The Indian Government has a law that states that wood exported from Indian must be "Finished" by Indian workers. My interpretation of what the agent is saying is that in order to comply with the Lacey Act, the part in question (Fingerboards) must be "Finished" in India.

However morally wrong, the agent is technically correct. If Gibson moved fretboard production to India, they would be in compliance with the Lacey Act of 1900.

Interesting. Hard to believe the US Courts have not decisioned case law on this by now. As a position of interpretation of "finished" could easily be wood ( what the average person believes wood to be) being ready for shipment. The interpretation of expecting the Indian people to make a product out of this "finished" wood is a bit of a stretch IMHO thus good luck to Gibson I say as looks like they may be fighten this in court for all North American guitar builders and other users of Indian Woods.

As far as Political -  guys you might want to take out your Obama & Bush references as really it is a bit of a 

[JOYCEfromNS]

Friends lets keep this void of Politics as am attempting to pick up and follow this issue brought to our attention by WALKERMAN's topic new take on Gibson Saga

Some background here and HERE

Should Larrivee be concerned

Surprised no Case Law supporting the manufacturers position to date on this

What's your take

[Walkerman]

My take is that Larrivee has no worries.  Remember all those pictures posted here showing JCL teaching those "foreigners" how to finish the wood in their own country.  I believe that was the DOJ's beef...not that the wood was endangered, but that it violated the Madagasgaran labor laws.

[dermot]

Cross posted from UMGF, first "Chainsaw Chuck", who is an imported and seller of Shell to just about everyone in the guitar industry, so knows a thing or two about paperwork, Cites & Laqcey;

Gibson's August 24th raid issue isn't as straightforward as it seems, since it was LMII who actually ordered and bought the wood, to satisfy a sale of theirs to Gibson; but rather than take delivery in CA and then spending money reshipping to Nashville, LMII simply had the wood drop-shipped (a common business practice) to the people who are in charge of warehousing woods for Gibson (so it wasn't going directly to Gibson's plant address).  Gibson wasn't the one bringing the wood in, it was being imported by LMII.

As for the tariff code, it was entered wrongly on only some, not all, of the paperwork -- something LMII had spotted and was in the process of correcting (but unable to get an agency response to).  Inconsistent tariff codes are something that's happened on a couple of our own shell import shipments when some desk jockey at the brokerage decides to change the correct tariff codes we supply (thus instantly converting a load of shell blanks into a shipment of "jewelry", for instance!).

Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at Luthiers Mercantile International (LMII), who imported the wood involved in Gibson's latest raids:

"The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs.  I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it.  The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter).  The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees).  The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood."




Second from John Tomas, touring blues player, and midnights as a law prof;
Chuck,

As always, excellent work!

I agree about the NPR story: those folks conflated the 2009 and 2011 seizures. I do think that the 2009 and 2011 seizures are related, at least as far as USWF officials are concerned. The 2009 involved Madagascar wood that Gibson obtained from the distributor Nagel. Nagel had gotten that wood from a guy named Thunam, Scholarly investigations of Thunam (Madagascar Conservation and Development Journal, anyone?) had concluded that all the wood that Thunam had obtained from Madagascar was illegal. Moreover, in 2007, the Tropical Forest Trust gave Gibson, Martin and Taylor representatives a tour of Madagascar logging areas. Martin and Taylor then stopped purchasing Madagascar wood; Gibson continued.

Fast forward to the 2011 seizure. Though the wood came from India, it still came through Nagel. But, Gibson's name doesn't appear on most of the pertinent papers. The wood goes from Nagel to LMI to a warehouse in Nashville and eventually Gibson goes and picks it up. In addition, the customs code on some of the papers refers to wood thinner than 6mm and, therefore, legal under Indian law. (The Lacey act PPQ505 that LMI filed used the correct code that accurately corresponds to this 10 mm thick wood.)

So, imagine you work for USFW. Congress has charged you with seizing wood that's illegally imported. You'd likely wonder if the omission of Gibson's name from the papers and the improper designations were intentional, intended to deceive officials, or accidental. You'd wonder about the curious distribution route with LMI as middle person (some of us know that's a result of a Gibson business/economic decision, but I don't know that USFW knows that). To find out what's going on, you'd want to look at computer records and other documentation. Those records could (and likely will) reveal folks just doing their best with a complex system. But, they might reveal memos, letters, or emails providing "keep our name off of the paper trail" and "use the code that makes the stuff appear legal."

I agree with Chuck that it's unlikely that the Indian woods will be found to be illegal, but I'm not so sure about the liability deriving from the paper trail.

Time will tell, I hope. The lapse of time apparently hasn't revealed much regarding the 2009 seizure.

[Matthew Larrivee]

One of the requirements we set on this forum to allow the use of our name is that discussions remain free of politics. Discussions of politics become very heated and there are other places on the internet to discuss politics.

HOWEVER, this issue surrounding Gibson has alot of unknown questions and implications and I am interested in hearing the discussion (Though I cannot participate for obvious reasons). I am willing to partially bend the rules on this one occasion because the issue does involve government agencies. I will personally moderate the discussion and remove content I feel is politically charged or innapropriate. Keep the discussions centered around the agencies involed and not the political theatre surrounding them. i.e. You can talk about the actions of the DOJ, but dont antagonize by including statements like "Obama's DOJ". Stick to the facts, and if you are making a reference to an article or statement please link the article so everyone can read it.

In addition please keep the discussion limited to one thread for ease of moderation. All others will be merged or deleted.

[Randy_R]

I know our discussion got out of hand and has been closed but I just read some very interesting things on the Collings Forum about Gibson Guitars / Nashville. Thought everyone should have another perspective on this troubling problem.

http://collingsforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2011005424/m/5440064136/p/1

moved here