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Walkerman
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« on: August 26, 2011, 01:31:51 PM »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

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Queequeg
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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2011, 01:41:19 PM »

Yeah, I've been following this story. Favorite quote in this piece you linked:
"Still, musicians cling to the old materials. Last year, Dick Boak, director of artist relations for C.F. Martin & Co., complained to Mother Nature News about the difficulty of getting elite guitarists to switch to instruments made from sustainable materials. "Surprisingly, musicians, who represent some of the most savvy, ecologically minded people around, are resistant to anything about changing the tone of their guitars," he said.

You could mark that up to hypocrisy—artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy won't make sacrifices when it comes to their own passions. Then again, maybe it isn't hypocrisy to recognize that art makes claims significant enough to compete with environmentalists' agendas."


Henry Juszkiewicz has pissed off a lot of people in his day. The list of suspects who would like to make trouble for him is rather extensive.


I also found this quote:
“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.)*This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2011, 01:45:25 PM »

Great artical.Having once been in the vintage guitar buz I can tell you that the old paper work was an easy form to fill out and once filled out you were done.I don't know about the new forms.BUT I wonder who pissed off the goverment so much to get this kind of responce.
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Queequeg
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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 02:13:39 PM »

The article was too painful for me to finish. Disband the EPA! This type of totalitarian "environmentalism" is just insane. Envirofascism. Yay!  wacko
The EPA is not involved in this.
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JOYCEfromNS
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 02:22:54 PM »

I fail to understand what is motivating the Authorities to be so hard on this

What's the big picture view of this Surely there are bigger issues on the surface that the authorities ought to be be concentrating on

Is this a Country in Economic Crisis exercising a form of protectionism Or are they acting out of political pressure from the EPA or similar group  I just can't figure out the motive.
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 02:26:44 PM »

Duck I hate to disagree but if it wasn't for them and other agencies like them we woodn't have brazillian rosewood now and many other woods that we enjoy for there tone.Don't forget tusk{now considered ivory} that is used for nuts and saddle's,me I like cow bone and I like a good steak so I see no waste.I'm still trying to figure out what WAHI come's from as ivory is now illegal.Not trying to bust your nuts as I have great respect for you,just sayin I would like to see real S.A. mahogany again,I would hate to see the over harvesting of Canadian sitka spruce,Canadian Rock maple and other woods.
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Queequeg
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 02:47:40 PM »


Is this a Country in Economic Crisis exercising a form of protectionism Or are they acting out of political pressure from the EPA or similar group  
The EPA is not involved in this.
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Queequeg
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »

Only because they use the justice department as their enforcement arm. Of course they are involved. Who the heck makes these "peculiar" laws?  
Internationally, it is CITES*, with enforcement by Customs and domestically,  the Lacey Act of 1900 (long before the EPA was even a twinkle in any admin's collective eye) is enforced by the Secretary of Transportation and the Secretary of the Treasury.

*Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.

For many years CITES has been among the conservation agreements with the largest membership, now 175 countries.

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Queequeg
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2011, 04:03:45 PM »

employing Godwin's Law?
oh my.
you win. 
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ffinke
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2011, 04:14:53 PM »


If it walks like a duck ....  

 


 blush Oh. You were serious...
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2011, 04:15:11 PM »

 :cop:interesting artical,thread now out of control.

Time for a  and a time out.






Now ready to be flamed.
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247hoopsfan
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2011, 05:07:15 PM »

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ffinke
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2011, 07:38:39 PM »

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I thought we were supposed to stay civil on this forum.
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2011, 10:50:18 PM »

Tom, you make me laugh!  Go Habs!!! 

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JOYCEfromNS
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« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2011, 02:09:27 AM »

I have often heard it said that the North American builders are unhappy with the Chinese using real brazillian.
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Walkerman
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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2011, 03:32:19 AM »

I have often heard it said that the North American builders are unhappy with the Chinese using real brazillian.

But doesn't that mean it would have to be legally harvested in order to be shipped across international borders?  You can look on ebay, and most all american builders are using BRW.
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bearsville0
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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2011, 04:03:08 AM »

employing Godwin's Law?


Godwin's law includes impulsively using nazi/fascist analogies without thinking through the appropriateness or truthfulness of the analogy. "Employing" suggests deliberate use. You can't engage in Godwin's law deliberately, that would make you a thoughtful person (albeit a thoughtful person with bad taste). I wonder if the law will prove true in this thread? I hope not.

I felt bad for the piano man and his antique Bosendorfers. Bummer on that one.

Just glad I'm not a white rhino:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/aug/20/rhinos-threatened-extinction-cancer-cure?INTCMP=SRCH

I rather think we do need the regulation and enforcement of CITES. If the people at Gibson were deliberately breaking the law, I hope they get the max.


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Danny
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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2011, 12:46:42 PM »

  This is a bummer. Kinda hard to take any guitar across a border with fish and game officials and others that may just take a notion to keep yours.
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Too many guitars... But I keep thinking one more may just do it.
JOYCEfromNS
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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2011, 01:12:05 PM »

But doesn't that mean it would have to be legally harvested in order to be shipped across international borders?  You can look on ebay, and most all american builders are using BRW.

Well hopefully I am not mixing things up as sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous. I never paid too much attention to the BRW debates and discussions as I really cannot hear the differences between the IR, Madi & BRW but I appreciate those who say they can. And even those who suggest there is a hierarchy in BRW. I believe they are referring to Old Growth being "real" and New Growth well a tier down I guess.  Nowdays the American Builders only have access to the New Growth whereas the Chinese can use what they want. A small discussion on New & Old Growth HERE and HERE
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Walkerman
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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2011, 02:45:30 PM »

Well hopefully I am not mixing things up as sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous. I never paid too much attention to the BRW debates and discussions as I really cannot hear the differences between the IR, Madi & BRW but I appreciate those who say they can. And even those who suggest there is a hierarchy in BRW. I believe they are referring to Old Growth being "real" and New Growth well a tier down I guess.  Nowdays the American Builders only have access to the New Growth whereas the Chinese can use what they want. A small discussion on New & Old Growth HERE and HERE

My understanding is that the only legal new Brazillian rosewood is stumpwood.  That would explain why you do NOT see any guitars being made with quartersawn BRW anymore.  This blurb explains it pretty well.....

"...Universally renowned amongst luthiers and guitar players for its superb tonal quality and unique beauty, Brazilian Rosewood, (scientific name Dalbergia Nigra), has unfortunately suffered from that very renown, and it became an endangered species decades ago. Since 1991 it has been protected under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Due to its endangered status, it is CITES-listed, and logging of living trees is illegal and strictly enforced. The only legal source of new Brazilian Rosewood consists of the pre-convention stumps of trees cut before 1991, widely scattered over the Brazilian countryside in the Dalbergia Nigra eco-zone. ...."

IOW, "new" BRW is stump wood from trees cut down before 1991.  There is no "new growth"  ie, new trees being logged legally.  If the Chinese are doing this, they are doing it illegally, and their guitars could not be exportred across international boundaries.  I don't see them doing that, because no one would be able to buy their guitars outside of their own borders.  All of this angst directed against Chinese made guitars reminds me of what the UAW was doing towards Japanese carmakers during the 70's and 80's.  They were doing it because the Japanese were making better cars.  I don't think that the Chinese are making better guitars....but American makers better take heed and watch their QC or they may get surpassed.  In the end, the consumer benefits, because everyone has to make better guitars to survive....JMHO
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