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Author Topic: Does guitar shape affect tone ?  (Read 10428 times)
frankhond
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 10:51:21 PM »

J-200 are notorious for needing to be picked hard with pick or fingerpicks. But this is not the shape. There are plenty jumbos which are responsive like a feather - ever played a Lowden or Avalon?

The "this shape is for fingerpicking and that shape for flatpicking" rap is a marketing trick to make you buy more. The equation is more complex than that.
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2011, 02:09:07 AM »

The J200 is a one trick pony and thats a nice chugalug tone,The only jumbo that sounds better then my Guild JF30 was my Larrivee J05.I have played almost all of the jumbo's out there that are standard production instruments and they pale compared to the Larrivee.The edge the Guild JF30 has is the lamenated pressed arch back.




OK ducking now for the rocks thrower's for me stating my personal/biased/over opinunated statement.
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2011, 02:33:59 AM »

The J200 is a one trick pony and thats a nice chugalug tone,The only jumbo that sounds better then my Guild JF30 was my Larrivee J05.I have played almost all of the jumbo's out there that are standard production instruments and they pale compared to the Larrivee.The edge the Guild JF30 has is the lamenated pressed arch back.




OK ducking now for the rocks thrower's for me stating my personal/biased/over opinunated statement.
Yea but y'all missed my wording. Not a J-200... a "SOUTHERNER JUMBO".
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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2011, 04:36:56 AM »

Another way that guitar shapes affect the tone is because the wave lengths of different notes (the pitch) and their harmonics vary.  Certain wavelengths will be emphasized (reinforced) by the way they bounce around inside the guitar while others will be diminished (cancelled out).  It depends on whether or not a certain note has a wavelength that is the same as or a multiple of one or more of the guitars inner dimensions (the distance between 2 or more of the reflecting surfaces) or the note's wavelength is not the same as any of these distances.  Some notes will create "standing" waves inside the guitar and others won't.  One of the reasons guitars and other acoustic instruments are curved-sided as opposed to straight sided (rectangular, triangular, etc.) is to minimize these standing waves.

It's the same theory as speaker cabinet design and also why different placements of speakers in a room with a given shape and dimensions will have different frequency responses.
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Zohn
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2011, 05:24:09 AM »

You'll know when this one rings it's time for dinner...

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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2011, 07:27:45 AM »

You'll know when this one rings it's time for dinner...

Very cool, Zohn
I guess that would be best described as a bell-shaped guitar???  I wonder how that shape affects the tone compared to more conventional shapes?  My guess is it does, but insignificantly.  In other words, it would be different, not better or worse, just different. 
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frankhond
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2011, 08:12:20 AM »

Yea but y'all missed my wording. Not a J-200... a "SOUTHERNER JUMBO".

Didn't you write SJ200? Gibson terminology is what it is but Southern Jumbo is SJ only, SJ200 means super jumbo...I think.... Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Edit: confusion on my part. OP wrote sj200, dependan wrote southern jumbo. I write about the mumbo jumbo.
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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2011, 01:12:30 PM »

There was the SJ200 which is a jumbo and a slope shoulder{later a standard dread}was called a Southern Jumbo.
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cke
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2011, 06:20:20 PM »

Thanks guys. So SJ 200 is the big one the has the mustache bridge. Then there is the Southern Jumbo and the and Advanced Jumbo, and  J-45/50. How are they different?

Which has more effect on creating bass, area of the top or volume of the box?

This has been a rough week for me.  My office chair broke, I fell off a truck and broke some ribs,  my favorite watch caught on a gate fell and shattered the crystal, it's been HOT and 5% humidity, knocked my coffee off my desk (Paper cup thank the Lord - not my beautiful Forum mug!)
 
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Chris
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2011, 07:37:23 PM »

Sorry to hear that cke. Hope you feel better soon. I didn't realize you were asking how  guitar shape affects tone. Sorry for my sarc. 
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GA-ME
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2011, 07:55:09 PM »

This has been a rough week for me.  My office chair broke, I fell off a truck and broke some ribs,  my favorite watch caught on a gate fell and shattered the crystal, it's been HOT and 5% humidity, knocked my coffee off my desk (Paper cup thank the Lord - not my beautiful Forum mug!)
 

Dang Dude! Hopefully, next week is lots better!
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gitnoob
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2011, 09:02:28 PM »

Which has more effect on creating bass, area of the top or volume of the box?

They both contribute differently.    Cover the sound hole and you'll just hear the top.    Then add the air resonance back in, and you'll hear more bass.     Depth matters.   Sound hole diameter matters.   Box volume matters.

Bridge pins?   Probably don't matter.   

(P.S. Ouch -- feel better!)
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2011, 10:09:05 PM »


Which has more effect on creating bass, area of the top or volume of the box?


There are two considerations; what frequencies the modes occur at and amplitude. The larger the top plate the lower the resonant frequencies(modes) will be. Same thing with the box volume. Of course we could make a huge box with a relatively small top but to get much energy out of it the top will have to be able to pump the air of the box. Conversely we could make a really large top but a really shallow box but if there is no air to pump then again you don't get much energy out.

Within the confines of  typical guitar building I would guess you get more bass and amplitude out of increasing air volume. I would think a really deep OM would sound larger than a really shallow Dread.
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gitnoob
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 10:11:55 PM »

Might be more complicated than just the Helmholtz resonance due to the box volume.

Here's Al Carruth on the topic of body depth:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2595298&postcount=10
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 10:19:38 PM »

Might be more complicated than just the Helmholtz resonance due to the box volume.


I didn't mention it, if you're replying to me.

Good link though.
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hadden
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2011, 12:48:23 PM »

Slightly off topic -- the top frequency is lower than the back. You can hear it just by giving the back then top a knock.  Sounds like a difference of a little over a step on my LV-03r.
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »

...The edge the Guild JF30 has is the lamenated pressed arch back.

Rob,

No need to run! The best guitar I ever let get away was a Blond (Maple) JF-30!!! If they could only put that sound in a small box with a wider neck I'd have another in a minute!!!

Back to the subject: Shape, construction, etc. definitely affects tone but what about neck joint (12 vs. 14) affecting volume?

f
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2011, 04:36:18 PM »

I know a little more about grand pianos. A grand has the shape it does to accommodate the string length. A baby grand has short bass strings, and consequently weak bass. A 9' concert grand has huge bass and volume, but consequently the pianist has to lighten their left hand technique to keep balance. The 7' may have the ideal balance. The "Larger = bass/Volume" formula translates, but since the guitar string length isn't a factor, other things influence the guitar tone more.

I am wondering if a dread with a fairly simple shape emphasizes bass and volume, while a jumbo with it's pinched waist and narrower upper bout makes for a freer upper range?
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Chris
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2011, 09:20:05 PM »

Slightly off topic -- the top frequency is lower than the back. You can hear it just by giving the back then top a knock.  Sounds like a difference of a little over a step on my LV-03r.

Yeah, that's one of the elements of voicing.    Some builders actually tune the back to the top.     A stiffer back improves projection, but Somogyi talks a lot about an "active" back that acts more as a diffuser for sort of a "surround-sound" effect.
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2011, 11:13:37 PM »

I always thought many Martin guitars have huge bass and have heard the break angle at the bridge has something to do with. conversly Taylor acoustics tend to over do it with the treble.................Larrivee and Gibsons have a more balanced sound.............
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