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Author Topic: Looks Like Tele Style To Me!!!!!  (Read 29371 times)
jwsamuel
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« Reply #160 on: July 01, 2011, 03:10:37 AM »

So, I guess since they make a D acoustic, Larrivee is stealing Martin's work product.  Sorry, but your argument is old and tired.  Seriously, a patent lasts what....7 years....and the tele has been around what 50 or 60 years? 

Sorry, but the argument against stealing someone else's ideas is not old and tired.

Larrivee developed the L body style. If other companies started selling the L body style, would that be okay?

And seriously, designs are not covered by patents. They are covered by trademarks and they last as long as the company protects its trademark. Fender did not protect the Tele and Strat body shapes, so it is legal to copy them. But legal does not make it right. And legally copying someone else's work is not innovative.

And again, seriously, patents last 14 to 20 years.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #161 on: July 01, 2011, 03:13:12 AM »

Could you imagine the state of a Tele if it was only left to Fender to produce    I'm certain it would be even further inferior to the current Fender offering. Would be good for Fender tho, just not us mortal musicians.

Yes, I can imagine it. What would happen is that other companies would develop their own body styles, which may or may not be better than the Tele. Other companies would innovate instead of just copying the ideas of someone else.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #162 on: July 01, 2011, 03:21:15 AM »

have you ever seen an acoustic guitar?  have you ever seen acoustic guitar by at least two diff. manufacturers?  yeah, lots of stuff in common and they certainly didn't all come up with the same designs at the same time. 

It may surprise you but yes, I have seen an acoustic guitar. Now take a look at Larrivee's acoustic guitars in comparison to Martin's. Larrivee have a unique bracing pattern. The L body is Larrivee's unique size. The Larrivee headstock is different. Now look at Taylor. Taylor developed new neck joints, new finishes, etc. Both Jean Larrivee and Bob Taylor took a traditional acoustic guitar and added their own innovations to make unique products. If all Larrivee and Taylor had done was produce Martin copies, would they have done anything unique?

Now look at what Larrivee is doing with the Tele clones. Nothing unique. Nothing that sets them apart from Fender or the dozens of boutique builders who make Tele-style guitars. When there is nothing different about your product, you compete on price. But Larrivee will not be able to compete on price with Tele clones.

Jim
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rockstar_not
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« Reply #163 on: July 01, 2011, 04:02:00 AM »

+1 WooHoo for the Heritage mention.    My "other" favorite guitar maker. Interesting story about how the H127 came about. Probably not for this thread, tho'.  whistling

The only photos I can find of an H127 show a distinctly different axe than a tele - sharing only a resemblance in body style.  They did take the effort to improve on the tele shortcomings (viewed by some as shortcomings).  Sculpted back, more tone controls, tilt-back headstock, proper bridge, etc.

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« Reply #164 on: July 01, 2011, 06:00:59 AM »

There are only so many good or best designs out there, acoustic or electric and they have already mostly been invented.  The classic designs have been copied over and over again.  If one assumes that this is true then all that's left to do is tweak or evolve or improve on these prototypes.  Guitar manufacturers do this "cloning" all the time, but they have varying objectives.  I think and hope Larrivee's objective in this case is to improve (or maybe re-establish) a classic design's full potential.  Now, one must decide whether or not the price tag is warranted, given there are real Fender Teles out there for less money.
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #165 on: July 01, 2011, 09:33:39 AM »

The only photos I can find of an H127 show a distinctly different axe than a tele - sharing only a resemblance in body style.  They did take the effort to improve on the tele shortcomings (viewed by some as shortcomings).  Sculpted back, more tone controls, tilt-back headstock, proper bridge, etc.

What photos show a different guitar?

The photos in this thread show a Tele clone with the traditional three-saddle Tele bridge and the same control layout. I can't see a tilted-back headstock and the photos show it still has string trees. As for the sculpted back, that is available on some Fender Telecaster models if you want it.

Sorry, I don't see any "effort to improve." All Larrivee is doing is producing a high-priced Tele clone.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #166 on: July 01, 2011, 09:37:25 AM »

I think and hope Larrivee's objective in this case is to improve (or maybe re-establish) a classic design's full potential. 

What have they done that would do as you say?

Just take it for what it is...an attempt by Larrivee to make money by cashing in on another company's successful design.

I wonder how successful this will be. It's not as if the marketplace is clamoring for another Tele clone.

Jim
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Walkerman
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« Reply #167 on: July 01, 2011, 12:36:43 PM »

Sorry, but the argument against stealing someone else's ideas is not old and tired.

Larrivee developed the L body style. If other companies started selling the L body style, would that be okay?

And seriously, designs are not covered by patents. They are covered by trademarks and they last as long as the company protects its trademark. Fender did not protect the Tele and Strat body shapes, so it is legal to copy them. But legal does not make it right. And legally copying someone else's work is not innovative.

And again, seriously, patents last 14 to 20 years.

Jim
trademarks are, well trademarks.  As for the L body...yes it would be OK. A tele "bodyshape" can no more be protected that an SG bodyshape.  Get real.
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« Reply #168 on: July 01, 2011, 12:57:39 PM »

What have they done that would do as you say?


Jim you have an interesting point of view, it's different points of views and opinions that make this such a wonderful Forum.   It seems you have a weighted interest/knowledge of acoustic guitars versus electric. Someone with the reverse might look at an Larrivee "L " model and think that oh it's just a Martin ripoff and not recognize the difference you pointed out and even once pointed out still are unable to recognize the difference some of which might be somewhat subtle.

I have not yet seen in person the new Tele Style or SD 35 by Larrivee thus I cannot really comment on it tho I extend my experience of the RS 4 by Larrivee. As I mentioned, a few years back the same positions were offered ( maybe some were by you) that this was going to be nothing but a Les Paul ripoff. I have yet to meet an experienced Electric player who has played both that would state this. On the surface it may look something similar to a LP but that's pretty much where it ends. Whether it is better or worse well that's an individual thing. The subtleties like those in an acoustic are the deal-breakers in making a guitar choice.

I suggest you gain some electric experience and give them a whirl worse case scenario you will have a ton of fun in doing so

Sooo keep an open mind c'mon over to the dark side ( electric) and see just how great Larrivee is doing electric guitars as the RS 4 is truly a remarkable guitar

 
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« Reply #169 on: July 01, 2011, 01:05:19 PM »

What photos show a different guitar?

The photos in this thread show a Tele clone with the traditional three-saddle Tele bridge and the same control layout. I can't see a tilted-back headstock and the photos show it still has string trees. As for the sculpted back, that is available on some Fender Telecaster models if you want it.

Sorry, I don't see any "effort to improve." All Larrivee is doing is producing a high-priced Tele clone.

Jim

Jim,

You need to read through the thread before responding to different individual's posts.  The H127 is a guitar made by Heritage Guitars - someone else on the thread claimed that Heritage had copied a Telecaster - when in fact all that they copied was the body shape - to an extent.  Here's the photos of the H127.  

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/index.php?/gallery/image/2311-86-h127-rescue/

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/index.php?/gallery/image/130-86-h127-kahler/

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/index.php?/gallery/image/136-88-h127/

My point in referring to the H127 of the other post is that it really isn't even close to a Tele copy.  The H127 is something more along the lines of what I would expect from Larrivee, not a thinly veiled knock-off like those that have been shown.

If you chase this whole tele thing back in the forums here, you'll find that there were some pretty strong voices begging Larrivee to make a tele style guitar.  I think the model that has been shown is a reaction to that.

They won't sell thousands or even hundreds of these guitars.  It probably doesn't really even matter to Larrivee.  They are practicing their chops at making various styles of electrics with beauty and build quality almost as an exercise - that's what it appears like to my eyes.  They are generally succeeding by all accounts.

There's nothing wrong with making a Tele style guitar; rather the opposite.  My only complaints is that they are staying too true to some of the Tele's less desirable qualities - like the possiblity of non-compensated 3 saddle piece bridges as being the standard bridge.  They could also do players a favor and sculpt the back of the body - but I'm guessing it will be a copy of the tele slab.

I also can't believe that they are copying the spaghetti script font that Fender uses.  That seems like something a Chinese knock-off manufacturer would do, not our favorite guitar maker.

Check out those H127 photos....
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« Reply #170 on: July 01, 2011, 01:17:46 PM »

My only complaints is that they are staying too true to some of the Tele's less desirable qualities - like the possiblity of non-compensated 3 saddle piece bridges as being the standard bridge.  They could also do players a favor and sculpt the back of the body - but I'm guessing it will be a copy of the tele slab.



Specs are stating this:
Ultra comfortable "Tummy Cut"
Cresent "Forearm Cut" for maximum playability

My guess from looking at the specs Larrivee is attempting to find that Broadcaster tone that Fender lost so many years ago and the Bridge is integral in capturing that.
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« Reply #171 on: July 01, 2011, 03:05:56 PM »

Jim, taking your argument to its logical conclusion, all guitar (car, furniture, appliance, shoe etc.) shapes belong  to someone, therefore (eventually) no one else should ever be allowed to make another guitar (car, furniture, appliance, shoe etc.). That was basically the position held by the guilds in Europe that drove, among others, the first CF Martin to America. It's totalitarian absurdity and ridiculous to boot. There is just no practical way to control that process. Besides, just as with a person, there is more to a guitar than its shape and we are all better off without that sort of thinking.
 
Secondly, if I write a song, it becomes my actual property. You can't take my song (or the actual guitar I wrote it on) and call it yours but, as we see in country and folk music, you can write thousands of songs just like it and there's nothing anyone can do about it. IMHO that's a good thing.    
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« Reply #172 on: July 01, 2011, 07:32:16 PM »


Specs are stating this:
Ultra comfortable "Tummy Cut"
Cresent "Forearm Cut" for maximum playability

My guess from looking at the specs Larrivee is attempting to find that Broadcaster tone that Fender lost so many years ago and the Bridge is integral in capturing that.

Joyce - thanks for pointing that out - I missed it in the intial photos back a few pages - but sure enough, the sculpting is there.  Also buried in the details shows that the saddles ARE compensated - so now I'm down to the kitschy copy of the spaghetti script font as the complaint - pretty minor!

-Scott
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« Reply #173 on: July 01, 2011, 08:27:35 PM »

A tele "bodyshape" can no more be protected that an SG bodyshape.  Get real.

Guitar body designs, just like any other design, can be trademarked.

Fender has trademarked its headstock design. No one else can make an exact duplicate without a license from Fender. The only reason others can make a Tele style body is because Fender did not register and protect it correct. If you think the SG body shape cannot be protected, try making and selling an SG clone. You'll have Gibson coming after you pretty quickly. They have done it to others in order to protect the SG design trademark.

Body designs can be protected. Get real.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #174 on: July 01, 2011, 08:38:57 PM »

It seems you have a weighted interest/knowledge of acoustic guitars versus electric.

My interest comes as someone who works with intellectual property and trademarks every day.

Someone with the reverse might look at an Larrivee "L " model and think that oh it's just a Martin ripoff and not recognize the difference you pointed out and even once pointed out still are unable to recognize the difference some of which might be somewhat subtle.

Here's something to think about. Martin developed the dreadnought body style. If Martin had taken the proper steps to protect its design, Martin could have blocked every other guitar maker from making dreadnought guitars without paying for a license to make dreadnoughts. Similarly, other companies can make replacement necks for Fender guitars with the real Fender headstock shape because they have purchased a license to do so from Fender. As for Larrivee's L body, I do not know if Larrivee has trademarked and protected the design. If it has, Larrivee could block any other company from making an L body acoustic guitar. Similarly, if Larrivee trademarked its headstock shape and logo, it could prevent other companies from copying those too.

An interesting side note: Martin announced about two weeks ago that it has filed for trademark protection for its headstock shape. If it is successful, Martin would be able to stop other manufacturers from using the same headstock shape.


Sooo keep an open mind c'mon over to the dark side ( electric) and see just how great Larrivee is doing electric guitars as the RS 4 is truly a remarkable guitar

I have no doubt that the Larrivee electrics are fine guitars. All I am saying is that the Bakersfield is a copy of a Fender Telecaster and does not represent any innovation by Larrivee. It only represents a desire to make profit by copying someone else's design.

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #175 on: July 01, 2011, 08:42:26 PM »

My guess from looking at the specs Larrivee is attempting to find that Broadcaster tone that Fender lost so many years ago and the Bridge is integral in capturing that.

So they are not only copying Fender's body design and headstock logo, they are copying the Fender tone too.

What's wrong with developing your own designs and tone?

Jim
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jwsamuel
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« Reply #176 on: July 01, 2011, 08:44:00 PM »

Joyce - thanks for pointing that out - I missed it in the intial photos back a few pages - but sure enough, the sculpting is there.  Also buried in the details shows that the saddles ARE compensated - so now I'm down to the kitschy copy of the spaghetti script font as the complaint - pretty minor!

Fender has long sold Telecasters with sculpted bodies and tummy cuts.

Fender has also long sold bridges with compensated saddles.

Jim
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« Reply #177 on: July 01, 2011, 08:44:16 PM »

Also buried in the details shows that the saddles ARE compensated
-Scott

I am excited about The Bridge   drool
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« Reply #178 on: July 01, 2011, 08:49:52 PM »

Jim, taking your argument to its logical conclusion, all guitar (car, furniture, appliance, shoe etc.) shapes belong  to someone, therefore (eventually) no one else should ever be allowed to make another guitar (car, furniture, appliance, shoe etc.).

Yes, all designs do belong to someone and should not be copied. There is a reason that General Motors does not try to compete with the Toyota Camry by just producing an exact copy of the Camry. They can't do so because Toyota would be all over them. You can only buy Nike shoe designs from Nike. If you want to buy from New Balance, you buy New Balance designs. Try introducing your own exact copy of the Mac OS X operating system. Guitars, like all other products, are designed by people who put their work and effort into developing those designs.

Jim
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« Reply #179 on: July 01, 2011, 08:58:48 PM »

i think jim is just here to piss in the pool.  who the hell cares that larrivee didn't invent the tele body style?  even fender doesn't care.  if they did, they'd sue.  i can't count the number of builder offering tele guitars that all do it BETTER than fender.  i've owned severl fenders over the years and out of all of the guitars i've owned, they were the worst.

i think the best thing to do is just to ignore these arguments and focus enjoy the bakersfield!
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