Larrivee should slightly change bracing on higher end models

[hadden]

To more differentiate the higher number models from the o3s. They are not against this generally as my 40th Ann. has slightly thinner upper half of the x-brace, and the git JCL made for Tommy Emmanuel had slight changes -- not sure what. Also I've read people report some earlier versions had rounded x-braces.

Same basic bracing system of the Larrivee sound which works, just some minor change like rounding the edge off the x or thinning sections like my 40th. Perhaps a Limited line. Bone nuts and saddles would be good too.

Hope this stays civil.    

[ryler]

You know, I agree (though I don't have the knowledge to speculate on how to make changes) that the most common complaint I've read from the Larrivee public is that of being overbuilt.  So by changing the bracing, that issue is being addressed, right?  If so, I think it would be a great idea for a limited run high end guitar.  I would never buy one because of money, but I'd be very interested to read all of your impressions if JCL were to invest a little in that direction.  (And I think we can pull this discussion off without getting too defensive of JCL's current offerings.  Well, I only half think that...)

[frankhond]

Doesn't the overbuilt thing come mostly from people who try to sell modifications, or from those who like to tinker?

I can see that high end models could have some more time invested in shaping braces. But there was already a substantial difference in tone between my LV03RE and my LV09. Do a proper AB test and you will hear it for sure.

I wonder if the problem is less about bracing and more about the myth that 03 and 09 are the same except for bling.

[GA-ME]

I wonder if the problem is less about bracing and more about the myth that 03 and 09 are the same except for bling.

Why do you say that is a myth? Could you expound upon the objective diffrenences between the model 03's and the 05's and 09's? I am curious as to what structural differences there are between the various Larrivee lines.

[LoMa]

Except for the 50, 60, and 70 series, and the LSV-11 model (and maybe a few others here and there that made in special runs), the Larrivee's have the same structural build. The higher end standard models presumeable use cosmetiaclly higher grade wods for the back and sides, and a higher grade top wood too, although I'm not sure how spruce is graded and whether or not higher grades of spruce are supposed to yield better sound.

But the main difference between the higher end and lower end instruments is the the finish. There are lots of arguments about whether the gloss is really thicker than the satin finish, but JCL satated at one point that the gloss finihs is thicker. He also stated in the same interview (I'm sorry I don;t have a url to that interview, but I am sure someone does) that he thought that the satin finish guitars may sound more responsive new than the gloss models, but because of the premium woods, he felt that the gloss models would mature into better sounding instruments.

There are arguments on every side of this issue. My personal experience is anecdotal, so completely dismissable, but I have found 09's that have a certain luchness to them that the satin models seem to lack. But I have also played a number of brand new 09's that sounded rather dead in the water and I haven't come across any stain models that had that problem.

The Larrivee's are overbuilt, as are many factory guitars, presumably to reduce the number of warranty repairs.

[jeremy3220]

Doesn't the overbuilt thing come mostly from people who try to sell modifications, or from those who like to tinker?

No, they come from the factory like that. They are overbuilt relative to other well known guitar builders' work. Lighter built guitars are not part of some fringe movement. Check out almost any guitar that was built outside of mass production(including those built before mass production).


Personally, I don't think Larrivee necessarily should make lighter built guitars. I mean, there are so many other guitar builders wanting to build the guitar of your dreams, who are already making lighter guitars. I can go buy a killer Huss & Dalton today; why should I wait around wishing Larrivee would build a better guitar.

[Michael T]

My 9 year old DV09 custom has had some mods done to the usual suspects (bones, tuners frets) but is balanced the way I want it and gives me the versatility I needed for my style of play. Say what you will but if you could play it and an 03/2/or 1, it would be like comparing an entry level guitar to a pro instrument, so I do agree with JCL the upper end does have a distinctively better sound to me than the others, and the look and feel isn't so much toyish to me. Of course if I actually brought myself to buy an 03 I might feel different but in comparing it just isn't there. Of course if part of a collection I could see how it would be much cheaper with multiple models, play what your ears and hands love and buy what makes it for yo.

[ducktrapper]

Maybe critics should build their own guitars and let Mr. Larrivée run his highly successful company his way. 

[unclrob]

Quoting jeremy which is something I never thought I would but he's right "Personally, I don't think Larrivee necessarily should make lighter built guitars. I mean, there are so many other guitar builders wanting to build the guitar of your dreams, who are already making lighter guitars. I can go buy a killer Huss & Dalton today; why should I wait around wishing Larrivee would build a better guitar."

for the duckster.

But if what you want to do is change the shape of the brace's have at it, just be carefull.I would advise not to use a knife as I have seen way too many stab wounds in my lifetime,so far.

[cke]

To more differentiate the higher number models from the o3s. They are not against this generally as my 40th Ann. has slightly thinner upper half of the x-brace, and the git JCL made for Tommy Emmanuel had slight changes -- not sure what. Also I've read people report some earlier versions had rounded x-braces.

Same basic bracing system of the Larrivee sound which works, just some minor change like rounding the edge off the x or thinning sections like my 40th. Perhaps a Limited line. Bone nuts and saddles would be good too.

Hope this stays civil.   

This is an interesting notion. MY L-09 is superb, doesn't have the JCL braces, my tech  who generally finds Larrivee's overbuilt and 'young' sounding, is ga-ga over it, finding it quite the best Larrivee he ever heard and rivaling any of the Martin's,etc. he does warranty work for  - and I have never heard a JCL in real life. The value added might help sales, if they can keep the price reasonable. Don't know if people would go for a higher priced tweaked out -05, -09, -10.

I think Jean's philosophy is to build for the long haul, while super-light guitars aren't likely to last as long.  And it was the sound of mine that sold me when I knew little about Larrivee guitars. I chose it over Martin, SCGC, Collings, and Goodall.

PS I do prefer the glossy models. I haven't played any satin's that struck me the same, though I do like my 00 a lot - but I often wish it were glossed.

[Flake]

To more differentiate the higher number models from the o3s. They are not against this generally as my 40th Ann. has slightly thinner upper half of the x-brace, and the git JCL made for Tommy Emmanuel had slight changes -- not sure what. Also I've read people report some earlier versions had rounded x-braces.

Same basic bracing system of the Larrivee sound which works, just some minor change like rounding the edge off the x or thinning sections like my 40th. Perhaps a Limited line. Bone nuts and saddles would be good too.

Hope this stays civil.    

Well, it stayed civil for a little longer than I thought it would.
     I would line up behind those who might like to see bone back on the upper end models.  I do not think it is going out on a limb to say most owners prefer the tone and longevity of bone over Tusq. Also the beveled pickguards (maybe just included in the case for those who prefer none) and Waverly tuners stock.  The wood binding is something I appreciate on Larrivee's and consider this to be something better than the plastic some of the competitors use.  I agree with those who charge Larrys with being overbuilt.  But to be fair after you have played one for a year or two they open up and sound far better (to my ear) than when new and you can string them with mediums without running for a neck reset in a short time.
     As for requiring critics to build their own guitars-I dunno.  I think constructive criticism is not an oxymoron.  For the price of the upper end Larrivee's I believe the above changes are reasonable.  I sense that you may have started this thread with some apprehension.  I don't read any disrespect in it but given that anything other than blind worship of everything done in Vancouver or Oxnard is seen as heresy by some I can understand your concerns about civility. 

[247hoopsfan]

When I picked up my JCL 4oth at Oxnard a few years ago, JCL told me they had hand shaped (don't know if that means thinner) bracing than all other Larrivees.  He also said it had a maple bridgeplate.  The JCL has a richer, more complex and refined sound than any Larrivee I have played.  Some may call it "mature".  It is my favorite guitar, and to my ears, it sounds like many of the hand made boutique makers, that all cost many thousands more.

I also have played D03R models that, to my ear at least, do not sound quite as rich as my D10 Rosewood.  I am sure the bracing in those 2 models are the same, but the D10 is superior.  So to answer the OP, some high end Larrivees do have different bracing.  You just have to find one of the 80 JCL 40th Anniversary models that someone will part with.  That is a tall order.....most of us will never sell them since they are phenomenal guitars.

[CZERO9RW]

Well, it stayed civil for a little longer than I thought it would.
     I would line up behind those who might like to see bone back on the upper end models.  I do not think it is going out on a limb to say most owners prefer the tone and longevity of bone over Tusq. Also the beveled pickguards (maybe just included in the case for those who prefer none) and Waverly tuners stock.  The wood binding is something I appreciate on Larrivee's and consider this to be something better than the plastic some of the competitors use.  I agree with those who charge Larrys with being overbuilt.  But to be fair after you have played one for a year or two they open up and sound far better (to my ear) than when new and you can string them with mediums without running for a neck reset in a short time.
     As for requiring critics to build their own guitars-I dunno.  I think constructive criticism is not an oxymoron.  For the price of the upper end Larrivee's I believe the above changes are reasonable.  I sense that you may have started this thread with some apprehension.  I don't read any disrespect in it but given that anything other than blind worship of everything done in Vancouver or Oxnard is seen as heresy by some I can understand your concerns about civility. 

There are those that don't tow the corporate line quite as hardcore as others.

I love my C09. Are there aspects of it I would like to be different? Sure.

If constructive criticism isn't allowed, list it in the forum rules.

[unclrob]

Criticism is a wonderful thing and its always welcome by me at least.But they build what they build to get the sound and feel that they hope others will enjoy.Would anyone suggest to Martin that there guitars are over bassy sounding and if they changed the bracing to correct this they'd sell more.Or maybe Taylor could build there guitars with less midrange.How about Gibson maybe we should talk to them into build there guitars so you didn't have to play 50 to get one good one and so on and so on and so on.

[L07 Shooting Star]

Criticism is a wonderful thing and its always welcome by me at least.But they build what they build to get the sound and feel that they hope others will enjoy.Would anyone suggest to Martin that there guitars are over bassy sounding and if they changed the bracing to correct this they'd sell more.Or maybe Taylor could build there guitars with less midrange.How about Gibson maybe we should talk to them into build there guitars so you didn't have to play 50 to get one good one and so on and so on and so on.

, Rob
By whose expertise is it a given fact that a "lighter" built guitar or one with a certain profile of braces is automatically better than another design?  I imagine most high-end player-oriented guitars are built the way they are with sound, tone, volume, and playability as the primary objective.

Kurt

[Matthew Larrivee]

To be a little frank, I have to get say I get a little annoyed by the "larrivee's are overbraced" comments – and here's why:

Every guitar maker faces a dilemma in the design of bracing – Strength, or Tone. One of the key ways that the tone of an acoustic guitar can be "altered" (Notice that I didn't say improved) is by thinning out the woods (back/sides/top/braces), but this comes at a price. Reducing the thickness of wood increases the instruments susceptibility to structural changes due to string tension, impact damage, and worst of all climatic damage. Often times the differences in tones between two different manufacturers comes down to which way they have leaned in the strength-tone dilemma.

I don't believe our guitars to be over or under built – I find them to be a perfect balance of tone and strength. This was my father's intention, and an important lesson that both my brother and I have carefully learned.

I've been reading these online discussions as far back as RMMGA – and as I recall the "over-braced" comment came from someone who was selling brace shaving services (not just on Larrivee Guitars). Then as the internet goes someone read it and repeated it, then someone else repeated it, and so forth. The seller, in my opinion, was an uneducated "luthier" who looked at our bracing and saw that it didn't look like a martin and thus thought it was overbraced – not thinking that parabolic bracing was an intentional design. Often times these types of claims are made by people who have not even built a guitar, or maybe built one or two (and somehow they know better than someone who has built over 100,000 instruments).

Altering the bracing on a Larrivee simply makes the guitar sound less like a Larrivee and less like Jean intended. The JCL guitar that we made in 2007 did not have "thinner" bracing – It was simply an exact replica of the bracing we did in the 1970's. In fact several of the braces are THICKER on the JCL. The bridge plate (directly under the bridge) is thicker and larger than other guitars from the 2007 era. The X-brace is rounder around the sound hole, but that doesn't necessarily make it better – it was replicated because that is the way the original was done – it's just different. More likely, the tone difference noted on the JCL's is a result of the soundboards from Jean's stash – They were master grade soundboards for a reason.
Matt.

[cke]

Thanks Matt. Great and definitive answer. Proves that Larrivee guitars are what they are because you make them that way!  Thank you!

[247hoopsfan]

Always great to hear from a Larrivee!     You won't find me complaining about the bracing or weight on any of my Larrivees.  And since I play mediums, I like knowing they will all hold up well. 

[L07 Shooting Star]

Thanks Matt. Great and definitive answer. Proves that Larrivee guitars are what they are because you make them that way!  Thank you!

Ditto from me.  (That was the point I was trying to make in my last post).

I can tell you one thing for sure.  My 1982-83 L-07 is one of the best sounding guitars I have ever heard.  And in spite of it being almost 30 years old, it is in exactly the same shape in terms of neck angle, flatness of the top, relief (without the benefit of a truss rod), bridge height, etc. etc. as it was when I bought it in 1985.  Yet, until I became educated enough to look after it properly in the last few years, it was subjected to extremely low humidities during many very dry prairie winters; being way too close to roaring campfires followed by leaning against trees outside overnight; spending time in hot car's and that kind of general abuse  

So I am very thankful it is built the way it is whether one cares to call it "overbuilt" or not.

Kurt

[gitnoob]

I like Larrivee guitars for their voicing and their strength.    The bracing is relatively heavy, which does reduce bass and volume, but it actually enhances treble and sustain IMO.

However, I agree that Larrivee needs to do more to distinguish their high-end from their low-end offerings.    Martin, for example, offers lighter builds at a higher price, and I assume that's partly because they expect more warranty work.   But let the buyer decide -- a lot of high-end builders will frankly tell you that their more-expensive more-responsive guitars will self-destruct faster than a factory guitar.