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Author Topic: K&K Pure Mini... not quite right  (Read 5832 times)
Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2010, 11:59:43 PM »

Then  +1 for Ron's advice.   
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Roger


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ummagumma
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 10:29:12 AM »


 very informative thread! I never knew about any of this stuff  wacko

 my live acoustic experience is basically an SM58 
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tadol
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2010, 07:12:57 PM »

I barely understand sing the SM58 -

I think I need Ron to come by the studio and explain how to use what I have!
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and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2010, 08:28:07 PM »

I do house calls. Rates are much cheaper if you live by the ocean and it is T-shirt weather. 
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Ron

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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2011, 03:37:48 AM »

The K&K is passive, there needs to be a signal boost coming from the p/u to the amp, none of those controls at the amp matter unless there's a signal boost that that preamp will provide.  With the signal boost will also come tonal clarity and a natural sound.  P/Us with a battery have a preamp onboard and don't need an external one.  I prefer external.
I'm trying to gain a better understanding of this whole impedence/output thing.  When you say the K&K has relatively low output and thus needs a signal boost, I'm trying to understand what is meant by "low output".  Yesterday, I posted in another thread how the K&K passive system I just had installed in my L-07 was "hot" with a lot of output.  I was basing this on how loud it played through all my various amps and my mixer/PA with input and output levels set to similiar levels that I have been using with my electric guitars.  The K&K, just plugged straight into these different amps (no external preamping), played more or less as loud as the electrics.

So now I am a bit confused on what a low output means compared to a high output.  So today, I conducted a little experiment to compare outputs from my K&K equipped L-07, my SD acoustic tube soundhole pickup in the same guitar, my strat, and my Les Paul studio.  I plugged each one into the same 1/4" "mic level" jack in my mixer and rapidly strummed an E chord with the same attack on each guitar adjusting the input level slider until the V/U meter was maintained at a constant 0db.  I recorded the numeric level setting of the slider for each case.  I was careful to apply the same amount of "strumming hardness" on each guitar.  Here are my results:

L07 with K&K mini passive SBT:  slider level = 3.00
L07 with SD acoustic tube soundhole P/u set at max. level, hight adjusted furthest from the strings:  slider level = 5.25 (least output)
Strat vintage middle pickup at max vol. tone pot at 10:   slider level = 2.75
Les Paul studio factory neck pickup at max. vol. tone at 10:  slider lever = 2.50 (most output)
So, to me the K&K has very close "output level" to the electric pickups which I don't know if one would class as high or low, but at least as much!??  The only P/U that was significantly lower in output was the soundhole pickup.

Is this a fair comparison?  Or am I comparing apples to oranges?  Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Kurt


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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2011, 05:25:09 AM »

For what its worth, I find that the K&K in my LS-03 straight into my amp is equal in volume level with my B-Band A-2.2 dual source pickup with onboard preamp in my LV-19.  I would still like to get a Pure XLR preamp for tonal adjustment away from the amp. I have a Fishman Pro EQ preamp but I have to roll off all the bass with the K&K and it still doesn't sound as real as the K&K with no preamp.      
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Roger


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ronmac
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 11:34:20 AM »

The K&K mini passive pickup has a relatively high signal level output, especially when compared to passive under saddle piezo pickups. This is mainly due to the marked difference in physical attributes of the two styles of pickups and how they transfer energy:

1) Physical contact position: The K&K system has three round discs, electrically connected in parallel, and mount to the large, flat bridge plate
                                       The typical UST piezo is a thin strip directly under the saddle

2) Physical contact area:      The PWM discs have a much larger surface area contact than the thin piezo strip

3) Sound transfer characteristics:  The PWM discs sense multi-directional movement of the sound board top and convert that energy to an electrical signal
                                               The UST strip senses changes in string pressure on the saddle and convert that energy to an electrical signal

4) Transducer output impedance:   Nominal impedance of the K&K is ~1 MOhm (million ohms); the UST is ~4 to 10 MOhm

5) Transducer signal level output:  The K&K has a much higher nominal signal level output than the UST, as a direct result of the much larger physical contact area

Many find the output level of the K&K PWM to be sufficient to drive up to 20 feet of regular guitar cable to an amp or mixing board. A UST must be pre-amplified (as close to the pickup as possible) to bring the signal level up prior to being sent to the amp or mixing board.
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Ron

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« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 04:43:00 PM »

Good information and reference to cable length.  I use a 15' but can imagine a long run to a mixing board would make a big difference.
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Roger


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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2011, 07:10:53 PM »

Thanks for the great info Ron.  So lower impedence = higher output.  Makes sense as ohms is a measure of resistance as I understand it.  I think I'm still going to get a belt clip preamp eventually, especially if I actually ever end up playing in venues other than my basement someday. 

Kurt
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Became a Shooting Star when I got my 1st guitar.
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If I never make it, I'll still be fine.


 
ronmac
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2011, 07:26:36 PM »

Thanks for the great info Ron.  So lower impedence = higher output.  Makes sense as ohms is a measure of resistance as I understand it.  I think I'm still going to get a belt clip preamp eventually, especially if I actually ever end up playing in venues other than my basement someday. 

Kurt

No, Kurt. The higher output is due to the larger surface area of the SBT vs. the small strip of a UST. Since the energy each pickup receives is converted to an electrical signal, it makes sense that the larger the area receiving and creating, the higher the signal level output.

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Ron

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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2011, 06:27:40 PM »

No, Kurt. The higher output is due to the larger surface area of the SBT vs. the small strip of a UST. Since the energy each pickup receives is converted to an electrical signal, it makes sense that the larger the area receiving and creating, the higher the signal level output.

OK, understood.  Thanks again, Ron
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"Badges?  We don't need no stinkin' badges."

Became a Shooting Star when I got my 1st guitar.
Back in '66, I was 13 and that was my fix.
Still shooting for stardom after all this time.
If I never make it, I'll still be fine.


 
flatlander
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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2011, 03:13:29 PM »

I can relate to wanting the bite out of UST. I've always had a stereo jack with UST on one "chan" and Body or bridge plate on the other. Right now I have L-10 so K&K is what I get if I plug in mono cord, but if I want the UST it's there. If you run both and can split them left and right, the sound can swell and sound cool. If you're mono using both pickups be careful that they aren't having phase issues. Another reason I like to have UST is for less feedback. The K&K's are pretty resistant but still if you get in a loud situation, they can still howl.
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