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Author Topic: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially  (Read 3996 times)
xeroid
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 05:22:53 PM »

I agree - make this 12 fret's problem..

But i would add -  only three people have had their hands on the guitar, Grant/12 Fret, John Larrivee & Xeroid... two of them know the geometry of guitars well, And two of them say the bridge is the answer... maybe try to get past the viewpoint that a neck set is the only answer, and try to listen to what they are saying?

I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

If it's fine, as they say it will be, then you win, if it's not, then you draw... and if a lighter bridge makes the guitar more responsive, then you get an extra big win

Good luck, and remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

d/



 

I'm not following you at all here.  Which two do you think have said the bridge is the answer?  Only Larrivee has said that the guitar is within their parameters.  And there is a logical reason why they would want to say this.  I will also let you know that I have been fully trained on the art of Luthery  and have taken a full course on the construction of acoustic guitars.

And I am also not sure what you mean by this:   I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

I just don't follow you ?
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Danny
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 05:42:01 PM »

  Not good for anyone.
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xeroid
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2010, 05:44:28 PM »

 Not good for anyone.

Could I politely ask you what is not good for anyone in your opinion?  What you meant by your statement?
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2010, 05:53:59 PM »

  First not good for you as a consumer, not good for Larrivee as it gives them bad publicity when these things add up, not good for us Larrivee owners and this little forum.
                               Not good for anyone.

BTW My local Larrivee dealer has helped me out considerably with warranty issues and so has Matthew Larrivee. I do think asking the 12th Fret to take it back is your best shot at a solution now. Also I am sorry you have to go through this, I don't like finding out my "new" guitar is defective either.
     
                                  That's it for me though on this subject.
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dermot
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 06:09:41 PM »

And I am also not sure what you mean by this:   I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

Sorry for being a muddy... i would ask 12Fret for the right to refuse the guitar after the suggested fix of a replacement -or- shave of the bridge is complete, then (and only then) go ahead and authorise the work.. i see three possible outcomes;
1) the guitar still cannot be set up as you prefer, with the new/revised bridge - 12fret replaces with a new guitar.
2) the guitar is set up to your preferences, and the new/revised bridge is still within reasonable spec's, and it's sound and/or responce is not affected.
3) the guitar is set up to your preferences, and the new/revised bridge is still within reasonable spec's, and it's sound and/or responce is affected positively.

That's what i would ask 12 fret to undertake, if they truly believe that shaving or replacing the bridge will brig the geometry back in line, i would give them the chance to prove it, but i would NOT take the responsibility for the end result

I guess i have the thought that - the lighter a brace is, the better, as long as it does not compromise strength, and as you know the bridge is the biggest heaviest brace of all...

d/


PS - i am pretty sensitive to my preferred set-up myself... for most folks my guitars would be an endless buzzfest, i have a very light touch tho, seems that you may share this trait..
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2010, 06:26:23 PM »

I'm not following you at all here.  Which two do you think have said the bridge is the answer?  


I did get my wires crossed, sorry...  this is from your first post, and where for some reason i thought you referenced John not Matthew, and i thought there was a note about 12Fret saying something similar... can't find that tho... again my apologies for getting stuff mixed up....

Quote
When I first called Larrivee right away, ( California ) without them even seeing the guitar I was told that Matthew Larrivee stated that on these guitars they were designed to be left with more on the bridge to have sanded off if desired depending on your setup.   In other words, Mathew's answer is to sand down the height of the ebony bridge so that the saddle would project from it.  I was not happy with that answer, as I find it to be inappropriate for a new guitar.

Really the last line in this quote is the key i think... you are not happy with what Matthew suggested, and i guess my thoughts are to give it a shot as long as you don't have to carry the risk of it not being to your satisfaction.

The piccie of the bridge on the new 09 seems to be pretty thick  when compared to my only Larrivee (an Om19 from 2000), but without mesurments.. who knows?

again, i wish you the best, i would not accept this guitar as is...

d/


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xeroid
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2010, 06:36:53 PM »

Is removing an 1/8 of an inch off the bridge really that bad?  So what if we take an 1/8 of an inch off the bridge?  I would think this would give us a higher saddle height, and the ability to make adjustments down the road as the guitar settles, and more string bend over the saddle going to the pins.

But to be clear, the bridge on the new guitar was not made wrong, it is identical in all measurements to my other Larrivee Parlour, and my other Parlour does not have this problem.  It still has all kinds of room to sand the saddle down should that be required in the future.

I think Larrivee is insisting that this is within "their parameters" and that this guitar go back to the 12th Fret where they will likely have to sand the bridge down.

SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK OF THIS?

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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2010, 07:44:28 PM »

I think if you have been fully trained on the art of Luthery  you should have checked the guitar out before you made your four hour trip home, but you didn't. Once you got home and checked it out I think you should have returned it, either personally or by postage. You bought the guitar from the dealer not Larrivee and to keep it knowing there were problems was wrong. You should have worked out the return with the dealer ASAP, not kept it expecting warranty work to be done immediately after buying it.
There is no question that there are guitars out there with borderline neck sets and it appears you got one of these.  One thing I don't believe is that the neck angle on that Parlor will ever change in your lifetime, that guitar is heavily built and has a lower tension short scale.
Bottom line is you need to return it and move on, if you still want a P-09 there are plenty out there with lots of saddle showing.
Ultimately it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks, this problem is between you and the 12th fret. I'm sure we are all glad that you pointed out this issue so others can be aware, but expecting others to agree with you serves no purpose and doesn't get you any closer to resolution.

Here are pics of the saddle heights on my guitars (all when new and set-up) they all have the same ultra low action. And yes some dealers don't set up guitars but some do, I believe others on this forum have bought guitars from the 12th fret and were given a free set-up.

OM-03MT  Colosi bone saddle



LV-19E  Larrivee bone saddle




LS-03IS/M  Jim Holler bone saddle
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xeroid
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2010, 08:25:58 PM »

I do find it interesting ( but not unusual from a group of Larrivee enthusiasts ) that so few want to point the finger at a Larrivee guitar that has come out to the California plant not as well as it should have.  I don't think I have done anything wrong at all.  I purchased a new Larrivee guitar and trusted that if there was a manufacturing defect, that it would and should be taken care of by Larrivee who promises a warranty if something like this does come off the line.  Immediately when I got home with this guitar and was able to spend the time for a closer inspection, I immediately contacted Larrivee for a return authorization number which was granted to me.  

So I gather from your comments that marginal neck sets do come out of the Larrivee factory and sold as if it where no different than another one that was set correctly.  WOW ..... what happened to quality control?

With all your guitars being already set up ( pictures included ) you have more saddle height on all of them than I would have on this particular guitar after it was set up.

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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2010, 09:03:04 PM »

Hi xeroid,

It feels as though you are very unhappy about your situation. I am sorry for that.

It feels like you want us to join you in making generalizations based on your situation; a situation that in my limited experience is clearly an exception.  But it I would no more expect you to accept that my experiences with Larrivée are more signifcant or indicative of the general case than yours.

You asked for opinions: Here is mine.

Your entreaties that readers join in you viewing your situation as a bellwether of the failure of quality control at Larrivée are not gaining traction here. I believe that this is because you are talking to  "a group of Larrivee enthusiasts" who recognize this as an exception, and who have a significant body of experience that bears out that the solution "return it to the dealer", falls within the clearly stated terms for handling exceptions of this nature.
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ronmac
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2010, 09:04:23 PM »

Amen!
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Ron

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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2010, 09:08:30 PM »

So I gather from your comments that marginal neck sets do come out of the Larrivee factory and sold as if it where no different than another one that was set correctly.  WOW ..... what happened to quality control?


The point is, this guitar just does not fit your needs. Someone else might want to raise the string height on this guitar and never have a problem with the neck angle. They can't build every guitar so the action can be lowered to a height that needs to be read with a feeler gauge. Many players out there want high action for many different reasons. Most players will look for a guitar that fits their playing style, thats why Larrivee (and other factories) have parameters(+or- X). Some may be set back a bit and others a little shallower to fit the needs of many.
Here's some good info from Frank Ford at Frets.com.
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xeroid
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2010, 09:21:37 PM »

Hi xeroid,

It feels as though you are very unhappy about your situation. I am sorry for that.

It feels like you want us to join you in making generalizations based on your situation; a situation that in my limited experience is clearly an exception.  But it I would no more expect you to accept that my experiences with Larrivée are more signifcant or indicative of the general case than yours.

You asked for opinions: Here is mine.

Your entreaties that readers join in you viewing your situation as a bellwether of the failure of quality control at Larrivée are not gaining traction here. I believe that this is because your are talking to  "a group of Larrivee enthusiasts" who recognize this as an exception, and who have a significant body of experience that bears out that the solution "return it to the dealer", falls within the clearly stated terms for handling with exceptions of this nature.

It wasn't I who said that this kind of defect or lack of quality inspection is coming more and more often.  As a matter of fact one said it is somewhat more common today.  Read previous posts from others.  Here is one of them:  "I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common."

Yes, it looks like it may very well go to the dealer as I think that is where Larrivee wants to send it.  

So if we can stay focused on the problem with this guitar, which is the issue I am trying to discuss ( not procedure ) then what I am trying to find out is if you or anyone else considers this a serious enough issue to warrant a warranty repair.  In other words, would you accept having to have your bridge shaved or sanded down in order to compensate for a marginal neck set on a new Larrivee if you had just bought it?   Or would you insist that Larrivee honour the warranty that comes with the guitar?
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xeroid
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2010, 09:23:57 PM »

The point is, this guitar just does not fit your needs. Someone else might want to raise the string height on this guitar and never have a problem with the neck angle. They can't build every guitar so the action can be lowered to a height that needs to be read with a feeler gauge. Many players out there want high action for many different reasons. Most players will look for a guitar that fits their playing style, thats why Larrivee (and other factories) have parameters(+or- X). Some may be set back a bit and others a little shallower to fit the needs of many.
Here's some good info from Frank Ford at Frets.com.

Let's remember that this is not the only Larrivee Parlour I own and I have no problem like this on the other one.  All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish without ever having to sand the bridge down, unless of course you have a neck set problem!   I know I can with my other parlour with no problem.

If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.  If the straight edge runs into the bridge then the angle is not set correctly.  You could sand down the bridge and compensate for this problem, but the real problem still remains that the neck is not set to the ideal angle.  


Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2010, 09:54:57 PM »

Hi xeroid,

Let's remember that this is not the only Larrivee Parlour I own and I have no problem like this on the other one.  All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish, even touching the frets and still have some saddle left.  I know I can with my other parlour with no problem.

If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.  If the straight edge runs into the bridge then the angle is not set correctly.  You could sand down the bridge and compensate for this problem, but the real problem still remains that the neck is not set to the ideal angle.  


Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.


"Would you insist that this be corrected under the Larrivee waranty?"

To answer the question, "No. I would return it to the dealer".

And some unsolicited advice, repeating some of the wisest counsel I have ever received, "If you don't like the  answer, ask a better question".

And to  "ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO."  I think the lesson here is to make sure you understand the terms of the warranty and the dealer's return policy before making any significant purchase.

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Mr_LV19E
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2010, 10:00:28 PM »

 All guitars should be able to be set as low as you wish, even touching the frets and still have some saddle left. If we take a long straight edge along the neck on top of all the frets, it should meet just on top of the bridge.

If your first statement was true then the second one can't be. Yes the straight edge should lay on top of the bridge but if the strings are low enough to touch the frets you would not have any saddle left.  On my LV19E the straight edge has hit the bridge about a 16th" below the top ever since I got it but it doesn't present a problem and my action is low low.  


Quoting Frank Ford, on the  straight edge test


"This diagnostic method is very clear, but it doesn't account for the thickness of the bridge. If the bridge had been cut low in an effort to forestall neck angle work, then the straightedge might land right where it belongs on top of the bridge, but the neck angle may be less than ideal. I could measure the height of the bridge (not including the saddle) and hope that it's somewhere between 5/16" and 3/8," or I could use an even simpler method to check neck angle.


Here's a simple method for checking neck angle that doesn't depend on fret or fingerboard condition, or bridge height.

First, check to see that the neck is straight, then take note of the action at the twelfth fret. Presuming that the action is reasonable, say, between 3/32" and 4/32" between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the twelfth fret, then simply measure the string height in front of the bridge:

If there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top, then the neck angle is just about right:"

So what is this measurement on the guitar in question?

Also from Frank Ford,

"Often, it's advisable to be tolerant of a "shallow" neck angle. After all, there are lots of different styles of guitar, and even more different players and playing techniques. What's appropriate for a bluegrass backup guitarist may not be the right setup for a jazz picker's cutaway guitar.

All along, I've also been assuming that we're talking about otherwise healthy instruments in normal humidity. High humidity can cause the top to "arch" upward, often enough to give the appearance of neck angle problems. Low humidity can give opposite results.

There's really no substitute for the experience gained by working on and looking at thousands of guitars. A veteran guitar repairer can develop an intuitive "feel" which takes into account a wide variety of factors when diagnosing the neck angle of a guitar. Each manufacturer has a different set of specifications and builds to different tolerances; each has unique predictability of service and repairability. It's up to the luthier to stay current with the best methods of repair, which vary depending on the type, style, value, age, manufacturer and use of the guitar."


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xeroid
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2010, 10:32:01 PM »

If your first statement was true then the second one can't be. Yes the straight edge should lay on top of the bridge but if the strings are low enough to touch the frets you would not have any saddle left.  On my LV19E the straight edge has hit the bridge about a 16th" below the top ever since I got it but it doesn't present a problem and my action is low low.  


Quoting Frank Ford, on the  straight edge test


"This diagnostic method is very clear, but it doesn't account for the thickness of the bridge. If the bridge had been cut low in an effort to forestall neck angle work, then the straightedge might land right where it belongs on top of the bridge, but the neck angle may be less than ideal. I could measure the height of the bridge (not including the saddle) and hope that it's somewhere between 5/16" and 3/8," or I could use an even simpler method to check neck angle.


Here's a simple method for checking neck angle that doesn't depend on fret or fingerboard condition, or bridge height.

First, check to see that the neck is straight, then take note of the action at the twelfth fret. Presuming that the action is reasonable, say, between 3/32" and 4/32" between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the twelfth fret, then simply measure the string height in front of the bridge:

If there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top, then the neck angle is just about right:"

So what is this measurement on the guitar in question?

Also from Frank Ford,

"Often, it's advisable to be tolerant of a "shallow" neck angle. After all, there are lots of different styles of guitar, and even more different players and playing techniques. What's appropriate for a bluegrass backup guitarist may not be the right setup for a jazz picker's cutaway guitar.

All along, I've also been assuming that we're talking about otherwise healthy instruments in normal humidity. High humidity can cause the top to "arch" upward, often enough to give the appearance of neck angle problems. Low humidity can give opposite results.

There's really no substitute for the experience gained by working on and looking at thousands of guitars. A veteran guitar repairer can develop an intuitive "feel" which takes into account a wide variety of factors when diagnosing the neck angle of a guitar. Each manufacturer has a different set of specifications and builds to different tolerances; each has unique predictability of service and repairability. It's up to the luthier to stay current with the best methods of repair, which vary depending on the type, style, value, age, manufacturer and use of the guitar."

  




Yes you are correct, the string in this case would rest right on top of the bridge which would allow a full range of adjustment.  It may even be better if there was some slight saddle protruding from the bridge.

Yes I have gone over all the measurements and checks mentioned in the article, and everything is marginal.  Close, but not as it should be.  I can see sanding down the bridge to compensate because it is marginal but that is exactly what it would be ..... compensating for a less than ideal neck set.  

So how many would just accept this and go ahead and get the bridge sanded down to compensate as apposed to insisting that Larrivee honour the warranty and set things right?

So far, it appears that Larrivee has no intention of setting it right.  One earlier poster mentions it's common knowledge that Larrivee doesn't like doing neck resets.  If this is true, what does this say about the warranty offered by Larrivee?
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2010, 01:19:20 AM »



The way you are talking, it sounds like you believe Larrivee is one of the worst manufacturers of guitars with next to no quality control.

It also sounds like you think  Larrivee will not stand behind the guitars they manufacture and that their warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on?  This is clearly a marginally set neck, and a manufacturers defect.  Just because they don't like re setting necks doesn't mean they are not obligated to do so.

DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?

Don't inflate my words. My post wasn't about what is right or wrong. I'm just telling you that probably every guitar company who makes guitars in an assembly line fashion puts out a percentage of product with less than ideal neck angles, subsequently they can't go back and reset all of them(certainly not dovetails) and stay in business. They will fix the minimum they can. I'm saying the big problem, which your situational forms a tiny part of, is not as black and white as you think it is. It's kind of like having brake work done on your car and freaking out when it takes longer than estimated... Maybe the auto shop is wrong but the reality is if you knew enough about brake jobs you wouldn't complain.

In Larrivee's opinion it is within spec so to them it isn't even a warranty issue. If you disagree return it. I would never buy something that is defective from the start and then demand the company do warranty work. If you don't like the product they put out don't keep it.
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2010, 01:36:08 AM »

Don't inflate my words. My post wasn't about what is right or wrong. I'm just telling you that probably every guitar company who makes guitars in an assembly line fashion puts out a percentage of product with less than ideal neck angles, subsequently they can't go back and reset all of them(certainly not dovetails) and stay in business. They will fix the minimum they can. I'm saying the big problem, which your situational forms a tiny part of, is not as black and white as you think it is. It's kind of like having brake work done on your car and freaking out when it takes longer than estimated... Maybe the auto shop is wrong but the reality is if you knew enough about brake jobs you wouldn't complain.

In Larrivee's opinion it is within spec so to them it isn't even a warranty issue. If you disagree return it. I would never buy something that is defective from the start and then demand the company do warranty work. If you don't like the product they put out don't keep it.

It was not my intention to inflate your words, but rather to clarify the meaning of what you where saying.  And you have now done so.  

You know, if it was my manufacturing business I would want as low a percentage of miss aligned necks as possible coming off the line, well under 2% and then those would never leave the factory.  I think any percentage higher than that would mean I as the manufacture has a problem that needs to be resolved.

Your analogy with the breaks is not a good one.  We are talking about a finished product that should have been quality inspected before leaving the door.   We are not talking about how long something takes.  I do understand guitars ..... and I know as well as others here that the neck on this one has been set in borderline.  

The question is should Larrivee be held to honour their warranty when we all know that we could go into a Larrivee dealer tomorrow, pick up another P09 that would not have the same problem.  
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2010, 02:56:59 AM »

The question is should Larrivee be held to honour their warranty when we all know that we could go into a Larrivee dealer tomorrow, pick up another P09 that would not have the same problem.  


Of course they should but you don't have a warranty issue because that is the type of product they sell.  I'm not sure how to say it any other way - you say the guitar is in a certain state and Larrivee claims this state is within their specs so it stands to reason that the guitar you bought is the type of guitar they intend to sell. This philosophical and ethical crusade is a waste of energy. If you don't want a guitar with a borderline neck set don't buy or keep a guitar from a company who sells guitars with borderline neck sets.

I had a customer just today who had exchanged a product at least half a dozen times prior to today. We finally decided to cut our loses and give him his money back. The guy then threw a fit saying we should just upgrade him to a better doohickie, what about all the gas it took to drive back and forth, he needs this doohickie and we have to honor the warranty. So a manager gave in and let him exchange it one more time. In the near future some idiot will come in upset because his doohickie quit working again.
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