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Author Topic: Would like everyone to weigh in on your opinion. Luthers and Pros Especially  (Read 3727 times)
xeroid
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« on: November 26, 2010, 09:53:54 PM »

I am posting about a concern I have with a Brand New P-09 I bought, that I hope Larrivee will honour the warranty for.  

I am no different than you guys in the fact I think they make wonderful guitars, however, no one is perfect, and some guitars will come off the line less than perfect.  Unfortunately it just  happens this new P-09 is one of them.  

The problem is the saddle height, or better explained as the lack of saddle height protruding from the bridge.  This guitar is brand new, un-played, warranty card not sent in yet, action is high and it has not yet been set up.  In order for me to set the action where I would like it, I would lose almost all of the saddle.  In other words, there just isn't enough adjustment here now  or in the future to be able to set the action as one normally would expect.  

When I first called Larrivee right away, ( California ) without them even seeing the guitar I was told that Matthew Larrivee stated that on these guitars they were designed to be left with more on the bridge to have sanded off if desired depending on your setup.   In other words, Mathew's answer is to sand down the height of the ebony bridge so that the saddle would project from it.  I was not happy with that answer, as I find it to be inappropriate for a new guitar.  I was then issued a Return Authorization number and told to ship it to the Canadian facility.  So I did just that, at a cost of $70 out of my pocket.

The guitar arrived on Nov 8th and I called on the 22nd to find out what progress they where making on fixing this guitar.  I was fully expecting them to do a neck reset.  Here is what I was told .....

John Jr., Jean Larrivee’s son, has inspected your guitar and has found that everything on the guitar is to factory specs and is within our parameters.  

Needless to say I am not happy with the answer, and I would doubt any of you Larrivee enthusiasts  would be pleased either.

I have emailed them back to let them know I am not happy about this answer, and that I think it would be best that they honour the warranty.  I am suppose to hear back from them after this weekend so was hoping that you guys would weigh in ..... especially the guitar builders and professionals that come here to maybe explain the negative effects of a low low saddle or sanding down the bridge or low string bend over the saddle.

Another thing to note is that I own another Larrivee Parlour guitar which I could bottom out the strings along the frets for an extreme low action and still have saddle height without sanding the bridge.  The bridges on both are identical in height.

When you look at the picture of the NEW P-09 remember that this guitar has not been set up yet and the saddle needs to be lowered to get the proper action that I like and have on my other Larrivee Parlour.  

I feel it's a neck set problem ..... it's very close, but not right.  And I certainly don't think anyone should be sanding down a bridge on a new Larrivee.

Please weigh in as though this was your guitar, and you had just bought it brand new.  Do you agree there is a problem?  Do you agree Larrivee should honour the warranty?    

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Barefoot Rob
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 10:14:38 PM »

OK I'm willing to get yelled at and attacked,its not like it hasn't happen before.Without having iy in hand to check the neck angle I can't tell you if it needs a neck reset.If it is in fact found to be within factory spec's I would ask for a refund from the daeler as that is who you really bought it from.If I were the dealer I'd do whatever it took to keep you as a client,replace it or refund the money.In reality when I worked for a dealer I inspected ever guitar and would have returned it with that little saddle hieght.I've noticed that many manufacturer's are making taller bridsge's and have popped more then share of bridge's and sanded off the bottom so I could get saddle hieght.I know that everyone say's not to do this as it change's the tone but I've had no complaints.Maybe they should reconsider there position but thats not for me to deside.ALWAYS inspect before buying.ALWAYS have a least a 24 hour approval with NO restocking fee when buying mail order,if theres a fee don't do business with them.
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 10:19:34 PM »

Not a pro, not a lutihier.. but i do have a question for you....

Do you know what is the height from the sitka top to the highest of the ebony bridge?

I ask this due to the piccie looking like that the bridge it's self is pretty thick, and maybe replacing it with a less thick bridge, or sanding the bottom of the one you have is an appropriate solution, and may result in a better sounding instrument... after all the bridge is the heaviest brace of all

Martin have three thickness of bridges, and they decide what to use on any given guitar after the neck is set, Larrivee may have a similar system, and yours is right on the borderline of "spec"

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xeroid
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 10:41:38 PM »

OK I'm willing to get yelled at and attacked,its not like it hasn't happen before.Without having iy in hand to check the neck angle I can't tell you if it needs a neck reset.If it is in fact found to be within factory spec's I would ask for a refund from the daeler as that is who you really bought it from.If I were the dealer I'd do whatever it took to keep you as a client,replace it or refund the money.In reality when I worked for a dealer I inspected ever guitar and would have returned it with that little saddle hieght.I've noticed that many manufacturer's are making taller bridsge's and have popped more then share of bridge's and sanded off the bottom so I could get saddle hieght.I know that everyone say's not to do this as it change's the tone but I've had no complaints.Maybe they should reconsider there position but thats not for me to deside.ALWAYS inspect before buying.ALWAYS have a least a 24 hour approval with NO restocking fee when buying mail order,if theres a fee don't do business with them.


My first comment is ..... it's a Larrivee guitar with a Larrivee warranty.  

So what you are saying is, as a dealer you wouldn't have accepted the guitar and would have returned it to the manufacturer.
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xeroid
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 10:45:45 PM »

Not a pro, not a lutihier.. but i do have a question for you....

Do you know what is the height from the sitka top to the highest of the ebony bridge?

I ask this due to the piccie looking like that the bridge it's self is pretty thick, and maybe replacing it with a less thick bridge, or sanding the bottom of the one you have is an appropriate solution, and may result in a better sounding instrument... after all the bridge is the heaviest brace of all

Martin have three thickness of bridges, and they decide what to use on any given guitar after the neck is set, Larrivee may have a similar system, and yours is right on the borderline of "spec"

d/  



To answer your question:  The height is identical to my other Larrivee Parlour guitar which has all kinds of saddle coming out of the bridge and therefore you are able to sand down the bottom of the saddle to achieve any action you require, without ever having to sand the bridge.  In other words, the bridge on this new guitar was not made out of spec. 
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 11:04:17 PM »

I deleted the duplicate post in the Larrivee section of the forum.
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 12:40:28 AM »

I wouldn't be happy with that on a new instrument.

Have you contacted the dealer?
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 02:27:18 AM »

Larrivee has said its not a warranty issue,in fact they state its to there factory spec's.

Yes I'm saying when I worked for a dealer EVERY guitar that came into that shop came across my bench.EVERY new guitar guitar was inspected by me.I once sent back 12 guitars that were bought as a special deal,EVERY guitar had an issue that was not acceptable to me or the owner when I showed him.A call was made to our rep and call tags issued for these guitars.Was Larrivee happy,I don't know nor did I care as I had to stand behind every guitar.Before we bought any used guitar it came across my bench to determen if it was all original,did it need work.I also sold Larrivee seconds that came in unmarked as seconds but since it was sold to us as such we sold it as a second at a deep discount which at the time I asked if I could sell them at a special price,advertise worldwide as a second and was told that that was fine by them.Not all dealers did this but I had to live with myself,plus I owned a second for a very long time.

So since its not being covered by warranty because they find no flaw in construction the problem now becomes between you and the dealer.Hopefully they will step up to the plate and swap you out or refund the money.Its what I'd do if I were a dealer.If they say that theres no problem because its up to factory spec's it will be up to you on what you do.Choice will be sell it for a loss or have the work done that is needed.Take it to a repable tech/luthier for there opinion.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 04:37:50 AM »



So since its not being covered by warranty because they find no flaw in construction the problem now becomes between you and the dealer.Hopefully they will step up to the plate and swap you out or refund the money.Its what I'd do if I were a dealer.If they say that theres no problem because its up to factory spec's it will be up to you on what you do.Choice will be sell it for a loss or have the work done that is needed.Take it to a repable tech/luthier for there opinion.

I don't know why you keep thinking a dealer would be responsible for a guitar made by Larrivee and warrantied by Larrivee.  It is Larrivee who offers the warranty ... not the dealer.  

This definitely is a warranty issue, the neck on this particular guitar is marginally set.    YES it's easy for Larrivee to back out of their responsibility and just say it's within spec ...... but I think the evidence is clear.  PLEASE FOCUS on the details of the guitar problem at hand.  I don't want to, nor should I have to sand down a bridge on a NEW Larrivee.  That to me is unacceptable.

You first said you would return it if it was a guitar you received as a dealer, so I assume you find this guitar unacceptable as much as I do.  Is that correct?   You agree with me that this guitar is unacceptable and should be honoured by the Larrivee warranty?

LARRIVEE WARRANTY

Every Larrivée instrument is warranted to the original retail purchaser against defects in materials and workmanship, without time limit.  Remember, the best warranty is a careful owner. We take a lot of pride in building great guitars. If we build a problem into one, we want to take care of it.


SO FAR LARRIVEE HAS NOT TAKEN CARE OF THIS WARRANTY ISSUE .... AND EVERYONE HERE SHOULD BE CONCERNED.
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 04:56:55 AM »

I don't know why you keep thinking a dealer would be responsible for a guitar made by Larrivee and warrantied by Larrivee.  It is Larrivee who offers the warranty ... not the dealer. 

He's just saying that since Larrivee has already told you its within spec....and you're not happy with it...return it to the dealer. Let them fight the fight. 
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 05:00:41 AM »

From the Larrivee website -

Consult Your Dealer

All Larrivee authorized dealers are qualified to advise you regarding the details of processing a repair or return. Contact your dealer first, before proceeding with any other action, to obtain a Return Authorization number. It is important to note that all returns must be preceded by a Return Authorization (RA) number. Returns that do not have a valid RA number number prominently displayed on the carton will be rejected and returned freight-collect to the point of origin. Obtaining an RA number is the responsibility of the dealer. Larrivee will not accept repair or return claims direct from end-user customers except in the event the dealer who originally sold the guitar is no longer accessible to that end user. If this is the case please call our number listed in the customer service section


The warranty is offered to all retail purchasers when purchased from an authorized dealer. If you have a new guitar from a dealer that you are unhappy with, then I would suggest you return it to them immediately for a replacement.

If you have not purchased it new from an authorized dealer, then I guess you need to rely on the good will of the factory to repair an instrument that they are not obligated to repair. If you bought on the grey market, you save alot of money, but you give up the retail service/warranty - that's the trade off. Your anger/frustration is not the best way to get support or action from them. They are good people and will make sure it is a completely playable guitar. BUT - if your expectation is that they will completely rebuild the guitar to YOUR spec - Good luck with that -

It just leads me to wonder why you'd buy a guitar with this "obvious" a flaw and not immediately return it? I think there's more to this than has been disclosed -

I'm gonna sign out of this little tempest -  
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 05:11:55 AM »

It is the dealers responsibility to deal with warranty issue's,period.Though right now its your problem.Approach the dealer calmly and see what they will do for you,they sold it too you not Larrivee.I fully understand your frustration its happened to others.I'm not trying to anger you at all.All I can do is suggest a different aproach to the problem in hope's that you can resolution.
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2010, 05:36:33 AM »

Just so everyone is clear ..........

The guitar was purchased from an authorized dealer, the 12th fret in Toronto.   The return authorization was issued by Larrivee themselves.

I don't know why all the comments about who is responsible, the dealer or the manufacturer ..... as this takes away from the real issue.  The guitar itself and it's marginal neck set causing a major lack of saddle height is the issue.

I certainly don't expect Larrivee to rebuild the guitar to MY specs as someone suggested.  But what I do expect FROM LARRIVEE, not the dealer, is to honour the warranty LARRIVEE has in place and to resolve this issue quickly and appropriately.  Not to simply say you will need to sand down the bridge to obtain a normal string action setting.  This certainly isn't required with my other Larrivee Parlour as you can see in the picture and it is set up with a good string action, the New Parlour isn't set up and has a much higher action as is normal with a new guitar.  The problem is you can't set this new guitars string action without removing a substantial amount of wood off the ebony bridge.  

How many Larrivee fans would accept buying a NEW 9 series Larrivee that required the bridge to be sanded down to obtain a normal string action?
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2010, 06:06:18 AM »



It just leads me to wonder why you'd buy a guitar with this "obvious" a flaw and not immediately return it? I think there's more to this than has been disclosed -

I'm gonna sign out of this little tempest -  

To answer your question:  It was a four hour drive, one way to get to the nearest authorized dealer, and as you know, new guitars do not come professionally set up.  You may also appreciate the knowledge that Larrivee stands behind every guitar they make by way of a warranty, which should give you all the confidence you need to buy a NEW guitar from an authorized dealer without worry.   Do you not agree?  Are you saying don't trust Larrivee?  It is only when I got home that I had enough time to inspect the guitar in any great detail in preparation of having it professionally set up that I discovered the neck with this guitar is marginally set.  I have another Larrivee Parlour which does not have this problem at all and it's action is set low with all kinds of room left on the saddle and no need to sand the bridge.

It boils down to this .......

How many here would accept a NEW 9 Series Larrivee Guitar that you just purchased that requires the bridge to be sanded down and probably groves cut in front of each peg to obtain a decent string bend over the saddle just to obtain a normal set up and string height?  Does anyone here think this is NORMAL?

The argument is not about procedure or the dealer.

Please stay on topic, and stick with the problem at hand .... a guitar problem with pictures and explanations so you can understand what is wrong technically with this guitar and if you would expect Larrivee to stand behind their warranty with this particular issue.

I WOULD HOPE THAT THIS POST STAYS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND IS TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND THAT IT WOULD BE A CONCERN FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PURCHASED NEW LARRIVEES OR ARE CONSIDERING DOING SO.


DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 01:14:29 PM »

How many here would accept a NEW 9 Series Larrivee Guitar that you just purchased that requires the bridge to be sanded down substantially, and probably groves cut in front of each peg to obtain a decent string bend over the saddle just to obtain a normal set up and string height?  Does anyone here think this is NORMAL?

I wouldn't buy any guitar with a poor neck angle because it's the first thing I check when considering a guitar. I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common. I'm not saying it's right but it's 'the nature of the beast' so to speak and if you think they are so obligated to do a neck reset instead of shave the bridge then you don't really understand what it is you bought.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 01:21:56 PM »

I wouldn't buy any guitar with a poor neck angle because it's the first thing I check when considering a guitar. I think it's common knowledge for people who have been around here long enough that Larrivee hates doing neck resets. It sucks to find out the hard way but assembly line guitars with marginal or downright poor neck angles is very common. I'm not saying it's right but it's 'the nature of the beast' so to speak and if you think they are so obligated to do a neck reset instead of shave the bridge then you don't really understand what it is you bought.


The way you are talking, it sounds like you believe Larrivee is one of the worst manufacturers of guitars with next to no quality control.

It also sounds like you think  Larrivee will not stand behind the guitars they manufacture and that their warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on?  This is clearly a marginally set neck, and a manufacturers defect.  Just because they don't like re setting necks doesn't mean they are not obligated to do so.

DO YOU FEEL LARRIVEE SHOULD HONOUR THE WARRANTY IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION?
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 02:14:00 PM »

I agree with tadol.  This issue shouldn't have gotten by the dealer's technician.  It looks obvious from the pictures that there would be a setup issue at some point.  I agree that sanding down the saddle shouldn't be needed on a new guitar.  I have owned seven Larrivees and still own two.  They have all been great guitars.  If one was to judge the Larrivee commitment to quality control by this site it speaks volumes to the positive.  That said, I've never had a pro set up one of my guitars.  The only issue I've ever noticed on my guitars is that the fret ends get obvious in the winter season.  I battle that with case humidifiers.  I would talk to the dealer.  You could take the guitar to someone nearer for an opinion.  I hope this ends up with all parties satisfied.
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2010, 02:23:41 PM »

I agree with tadol.  This issue shouldn't have gotten by the dealer's technician.  It looks obvious from the pictures that there would be a setup issue at some point.  I agree that sanding down the saddle shouldn't be needed on a new guitar.  I have owned seven Larrivees and still own two.  They have all been great guitars.  If one was to judge the Larrivee commitment to quality control by this site it speaks volumes to the positive.  That said, I've never had a pro set up one of my guitars.  The only issue I've ever noticed on my guitars is that the fret ends get obvious in the winter season.  I battle that with case humidifiers.  I would talk to the dealer.  You could take the guitar to someone nearer for an opinion.  I hope this ends up with all parties satisfied.

I suppose the dealer could have rejected this guitar, but they didn't.  And the fact that Larrivee issued a return authorization number and now have the guitar really eliminates dealer involvement for now.

So you can clearly see an issue with setup now and or in the future.  You also don't believe that sanding down the saddle is an appropriate solution on a new Larrivee.  Then you and I have the same opinion on the current state of this guitar.  IT'S NOT RIGHT !

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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2010, 03:03:12 PM »

The set -up on this guitar would likely concentrate on the nut slots and leave the saddle alone.   To say that sanding the bridge is any answer is ............crazy.    That's never a part of the set up process and it always indicates a poor neck angle.  Adding a thicker bridge is a cheap solution to an original bad neck set.

You should return the guitar since nothing is going to change this situation.   Nothing but a neck reset and a new bridge will change this situation and Larrivee doesn't want to do that.   Avoid the time and trouble and move on to a different guitar.

I have seen more quality control issues from Larri and other makers recently.   Bad neck angles and need of neck resets are becoming a common problem on new guitars, enough for me to check that aspect out FIRST on any guitar.

My new P-09 braz had more little problems than I've ever seen on a P-09 series guitar.  The neck had a back bow that threw all the geometry out of whack.   Some other person without the luthery skills I have would have had terrible problems.   I was able to iron them out but it was a wake up call that something at Larrivee CA isn't right.   Denying your problem means keep looking for one thats right.   

Send it back to 12th fret.
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 04:57:30 PM »

Send it back to 12th fret.
I agree - make this 12 fret's problem..

But i would add -  only three people have had their hands on the guitar, Grant/12 Fret, John Larrivee & Xeroid... two of them know the geometry of guitars well, And two of them say the bridge is the answer... maybe try to get past the viewpoint that a neck set is the only answer, and try to listen to what they are saying?

I would aim to negotiate with Grant the right to refuse their fix, and then get the fix done..

If it's fine, as they say it will be, then you win, if it's not, then you draw... and if a lighter bridge makes the guitar more responsive, then you get an extra big win

Good luck, and remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

d/



 
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