Forum III All Hog gets "TONERITED"... Roadtrip??

[Safricanplayer]

           I talked to JCL on a visit to the Oxnard facility about the opening up of my LSV-11 and he told me about bygone days in Canada in a huge warehouse where he would leave big speakers in front of a guitar and blast it very loud all night long with rock music to open them up. Then I talked to Matthew and he said they filled them with rice also. Something like that.     
         But then one of them also said that sometimes you did have to re-glue the braces.

Danny,
The ToneRite is much "cleaner" and simpler, and too my ears makes a audible difference. I prefer to enjoy the rice with my Thai food I'm sure you're excited about your upcoming Forum IV!!!

~ Ray ~

[Danny]

   The ToneRite sounds like a good device to me. I was just referring to the braces coming loose using the massive speakers and rock and roll turned up to ten.
    I always try to make something I already have work.  I may try it out soon and get back with y'all.
   

[GA-ME]

Hey Dan, what is this fill the guitar with rice thing? Are you talking about filling the body with rice? If you filled a guitar body with rice you would RAPIDLY and severly dry the instrument out as rice acts as a dessicant.

[Danny]

Hey Dan, what is this fill the guitar with rice thing? Are you talking about filling the body with rice? If you filled a guitar body with rice you would RAPIDLY and severly dry the instrument out as rice acts as a dessicant.

Matthew Larrivee told me about that part. And since they were doing this in the factory I assume the humidity level was being maintained there. And it sounds like they would only do this for "a few who requested it" (JCL's words) So it was just a method done overnight while the factory was closed. I'm sure they would turn of the loud rock in the Morning and inspect the guitar. As I stated JCL did say this loosened some of the braces at times. Also these were new guitars and were probably a bit "green" in the wood as well.
           But I am just guessing. You are right though about rice, it is a good way to dry out salt or a guitar

[Blue in VT]

I Rented a Tonrite for week from a guy on the AGF...and I too am a believer...at least for new guitars...I used predominately on my new Silver creek T-170 and it certainly opened up ALOT after 5 days of treatment...in fact it did so well that I threw it on my OM-05MT as well for the last few days...I can;t say I heard a lot of difference on that guitar...but it is already well played in.

BTW I found that it took at least a year of daily playing of my hogtop for it to really bloom...so if you can short cut that timeline with one of these devices then why not?  Sure you should play your guitar everyday to get it opened up but why not put this on when not playing to help further the process?

Cheers,

Blue

[Olfatty]

I would love to rent your ToneRite or anyone else's for that matter.

Cheers,

Wayne

[Safricanplayer]

I Rented a Tonrite for week from a guy on the AGF...and I too am a believer...at least for new guitars...I used predominately on my new Silver creek T-170 and it certainly opened up ALOT after 5 days of treatment...in fact it did so well that I threw it on my OM-05MT as well for the last few days...I can;t say I heard a lot of difference on that guitar...but it is already well played in.

BTW I found that it took at least a year of daily playing of my hogtop for it to really bloom...so if you can short cut that timeline with one of these devices then why not?  Sure you should play your guitar everyday to get it opened up but why not put this on when not playing to help further the process?

Cheers,

Blue

Blue,

I just had the ToneRite back on my hogtop (round 3) for about 60 hours with the vibration at about half it's max, and am just amazed at how great the guitar sounds. I think you are right, it's going to have it's greatest effect on newer instruments.....or those that are really heavily braced. Ironically I have not used it on my Mcknight Slope Dred, as the guitar sounds SO good, I'm afraid I'll jinx it The guitar is 3 years old, so it might have "ToneRited" itself

I've got it on my 000-18NB Martin for a last go around at half vibrations strenght and will probably be ready to begin the road trip for those interested by later this week.

~ Ray ~

[Safricanplayer]

Just a heads up to let ya'll know that the roadtrip has begun . Unit was shipped out yesterday and the first member has the unit reserved for 10 days....so I'll be contacting those of you who indicated a desire to be part of the road trip to see if you're still interested...and if so, to get your particulars. I'm really looking forward to the feedback, as I'm personally a true believer! My all hog Forum III sounds amazing, and so does my 000-18 Martin NB.

~ Ray ~

[Johnny M]

Put my name on the list as I'd love to give it a shot.  Let me know when you need more details and I'll send you my address and money.

Thanks for the offter
John

[muldaurfan]

Ray,

Please put me on your list.  I'm the second owner of a Forum III All Hog (bought off the Forum about 3 months ago).  Sounds great but I'm interested in trying the ToneRite.  You can contact me via email at picktap@wi.rr.com.

Thanks,

Bill

[BluesMan1]

   I plan on buying one to use on 3 of my guitars, one being my F-III. The other 2 will be my F-IV & my Italian walnut guitar being built. The Tonerite is now backed by Schoenberg Guitars, besides McKnight. Sounds like it really works & based on the physics, makes sense. The idea is to first use it for the extended break-in period, about a week of 2 uses, then periodically as wanted/needed. I guess if you play your guitar alot after the break-in, probably won't have to use it again or much?
   Please keep us all posted on your results. I'm buying one either way, as I was one of those when younger putting my new guitar in front of my BIG speakers & cranking out some loud, low bass. Swore it worked back then, but I'm sure my neighbors didn't appreciate it (lived in a 4 story condo)!
   A builder like McKnight would back this product if there wasn't a reason. Must work?   Will be interesting on the different perceptions & degrees of the experiences of all?
     Jeff

[Mr_LV19E]

I find that after about a half hour or so of playing any of my guitars they sound better (sort of a warming up period) so it might be good to just leave it on whatever guitar you are using at the time.

[BluesMan1]

   Roger, they reccomend 48-72 hrs. for the first use. I can't see ANY harm in leaving it on. Might end up with a prewar vintage sound in a couple of months!
   In the sense of the "physics" aspect of breaking in a guitar, the resin becomes crystallized @ the molecular level after time, adding to the stiffness & tonality of a top as it ages. When some of these older tops have been looked @, this process actually forms pockets of air (or some gas) between the crystals. Why they sound better with age must be more than stiffness. I really can't wait to get mine & throw it on my F-III. Can it actually sound better? We'll see, as it seems alot of you will be doing this before I get mine.
   Again, please keep us posted on the progress of all? Hey, maybe could get Tonerite to add our endorsement to their ads?
     Jeff

[naboz]

Bump to the top...
As Ray stated above, the ToneRite is just so simple to use.  I have the unit now (on its roadtrip), and will let you know after the weekend about the results of the first 72 hrs.  I have it on my OM03-allSP Spec. Ed.

[BluesMan1]

   naboz, please keep us informed. I'm about to order one, but was waiting to hear about any personal input about them. After doing all of the guitars you have, as Larry says, it's probably best to just keep it on the one you play most. Won't hurt it. Might "age" it 30 years in a week?
   This is a cool test all are doing. Still think they work well, as long as they're left on long enough initially. Then, just occasional tuneups?
     Jeff

[pennerblue]

I was part of the road trip.  To me, like many, the results were favorable.
I did some recording before the treatments and hope to record post-treatment and put them on reverb nation to see if anyone can hear the difference...

Thanks for sharing it with us Ray!

Penner

[flatlander]

It seems like it wouldn't be hard these days to check the before and after with a spectrum analyzer. They are included in so many recording devices/software. Can anyone do that?
I'd get one myself and do it but 2 of my guitars are 30 years old and well played and the other is 3 years old and sounds fine. Hmm I do have a new mandolin and another that hasn't been played all that much.......

[Michael T]

They sound like they do something for the guitar, but I don't think it's crystallizing resins or hardening anything. Those types of changes would be provable and measurable. I am certain that would be a highly advertised or touted result of the use of and endorsement of the tonerite. Whatever it does apparently is not permanent as it is recommended to use it occasionally for a tune up effect. They seem to have more to do with loosening the movement which then settles back into it's pre played position after a period of non use. I think I'll pass and just play mine.

[BluesMan1]

   Michael, you're right about the molecular changes. Those take years to get to, why a prewar Martin sounds so good? Was just making reference to the normal break-in, the Tonrite speeding something up, but not like the normal way. The one you have chosen & everyone else until this gizmo came out!
   Am going to give it a shot, esp. on my new guitars. Think it will work best on those. My F-III, that will be a real test. One year old & can it sound better? I'll see.
   That physics stuff is what they have found to be the case in older vintage guitars. Sorry if you thought I meant the Tonerizor!
     Jeff

[naboz]

Well, this is going to be long, so buckle in...
(I have conversed--via email--w/Ray before going into this past weekend's adventure, as I didnt want it to reflect negatively on his intentions.)

With ToneRite (TR from now on) mounted as instructed (per manual) on Weds. evening to my OM03-All SP, I had no real notions of what the results might sound like once I finished the first 72 hr. burst.  On a 24 hr. interval, I slid the intensifier bar from low to high, figuring to get the full range of projected benefits.  Saturday just before dinner, I am now anticipating this all mahogany 3 yr. old to have a new voice.  What I first notice after pulling the TR off the strings and settling in to play, is that the strings have gone slack a full step or so.  (Well, I think, all that vibration translated up the neck, strings could have slipped or stretched some. No big deal, get out the tuner and get it right.)  As I set my hand to pluck and tune, I immediately feel a significant belly bulge under the entire bridge area. Oh my!  I hold it up to look and then I also see a concavity in the pickguard area...eeeek.  Feeling like Dr. Frankenwood, I utter, "What have I done?!"
I tune the strings (it was in DADGAD and I wanted to hear the results in standard), and figure I'll let it set a bit.  In the meantime, I email both Ray and luthier Tim McKnight; Ray to let him know for liability reasons, and Tim to ask for his take on the resulting bulge.  After dinner, with trepidation, I come back to play the guitar.  It seems the bellying has settled some (OK, breathe deep), and the strings just need another tweek tune.  The first impression is the unwound strings are much more pronounced, so string balance seems off.  Then my wife says T. McKnight has replied.  I rush down to read.  The following are direct cuts from the subsequent emails (thanks so much Tim McKnight!):

Tim,
"naboz" here from the APM Forum (where I have not posted in a while).  I do still frequent the Larrivee Forum, and there was a roadtrip instituted  for the sharing of the ToneRite unit--which the "offerer" had said he purchased with additional comfort because of your support in an advertisement (and subsequent email?).

I just finished using the Tonerite for the first 72 hr. burst on my Larrivee OM-all Sapele (about three yrs. old), and when I went to retune (the strings had gone about a full step slack) and play, I had my hand on a significant belly bulge!  The area right below the bridge was bellied enough for me to notice immediately.  And with that, a slight "caving" near the pickguard area.  Well, I looked at the bottom-side of the bridge to see if there was any pulling up; no--good thing.  So I played for 45 mins., all the while continuing to monitor the top.  Then I went for dinner and came back to the guitar; the belly had relaxed, not totally, but the majority of the hump was settled--it is very, very slight this morning.  All in all, scary, but I think (hope) it is returning to normal.  It seems the top wood had relaxed so much--at least below the bridge--as to become almost plastic; and I am glad I stopped when I did!

I followed all instructions; guitar on stand (Hercules), unit mounted to strings and as close to bridge as possible. Started with the low setting and increased toward high each 24 hr. period.  Humidity was registering 45-49% for the three days.
I have never had an issue with guitar humidification in our current house (where this guitar has resided) and I am very particular with my guitars.  I also have owned 12 strings for 30+ yrs. and so know to look for structural issues any time a guitar is treated or repaired, etc.  I frequently check the tops through the Winter so I can see/feel if there are any structural issues--either concave or bellying out.

My point of this email to you?  I wanted to know your take on this incident.  I have high regard of your knowledge on wood and all things guitar.  (I would love to purchase one of your sound-ported beauties!)  And also for you to be informed of this result, as you may be supporting others' use of this.  I am going shortly to look at the guitar again this morning, and hope it continues to relax back.  I obviously wont be doing any more "treatments" with a ToneRite--too scary.

Thanks for your time on this glorious Sunday here in the Midwest.  Hope to hear from you.

Bernie Nabozny
(naboz)
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Hi Bernie,

First off thank you for writing and relaying your ToneRite experience with me. Secondly, let me put you at ease and say that if a guitar develops a belly behind the bridge and a concavity in front of it then this is a "good thing". Why you may ask? It tells me that the guitar is braced and voiced properly, or at least in the right thought process, to allow the top to be pliable enough to react to the string energy input. If a guitar doesn't develop a belly then this should tell you that the guitar is waaaaaaaaaay over built and braced like a tank. So when you see a belly, smile and when you don't, run... Incidentally it was Ervin Somgyi that taught me that bellies (in tops) are a very good and desirable trait for a top to develop. Make sense?

I would also suspect that the ToneRite allowed the top to move because the guitar was not played as much as it should have been.

tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com


Morral, OH

Make a Joyful Noise ... Psalm 95:1
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Thanks so much for setting my mind at ease!
As the day progressed, the top has settled back to normal (I believe, as I nervously keep checking it like a hypochondriac).
Have you heard of this happening with this unit previously?  Maybe nobody else noticed...?
So, my all sapele Larrivee is a decent build (voicing and bracing)--this makes me comfortable.  The sound is definitely more pronounced now that I am able to analyze it post-ToneRite.  And according to you, I should get some more playing time into this OM--though theoretically the ToneRite has put me further down the road!
Much appreciated, Mr. McKnight.
Good night.
BN

p.s. I am forwarding this to the owner who started the road-trip, as I probably scared him with my concerns this morning.
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Hi Bernie,

I have not heard of this happening (the belly thing) from using the ToneRite, but it makes perfect sense to me. All good guitars will develop a belly over time and many hours of playing in [if] the top/bracing system is supple enough to respond to the string (vibration) input. However, if the top is over braced then you can expect the top to remain fairly flat or at least maintaining the OEM arched top plane.

tim...
www.mcknightguitars.com
Morral, OH
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Feeling so much better, about the TR's symptomatic bulge and my Larrivee build in general (you go, Jean Larrivee), I go back to play my agitated OM.  The belly is (as you read above) pretty much undetectable, and the sound has now "matured;" that is, it is exhibiting what I thought might/should happen--overall string volume intensification, and a (dare I say) more bell-like tone.  So there you have it...learn something new every day; bellying is OK, and the TR may give one a scare on the way to its results.  Tim seems to think the top hadnt been flexed enough with my not playing it so much (my OM05 does get the lion's share of time), and I am figuring I put the Sapele "on down the road" a bit with the TR treatment.  Enough for me though, I am passing it on.  No TR for the OM05. 
Did I say enough?!
Operators are standing by to take questions--only on the 5th Friday of the month.