circle of fifths ,do I need it for guitar?

Started by DaveyO, January 12, 2010, 07:39:16 PM

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NEED? No not really, particularly for guitar, which in the post folk, Beatles, era has become so pervasive/popular. Lots of, if not most, guitar players know little to nothing about theory. Learn a few chord forms and off they go. Really it is most practical for figuring out how to transpose songs from one key to another. But then so is a capo.

Learning how Chord Scales works is probably a lot more helpful. If you want to know why your fingers go where they do, in those chord forms, it can be a valuable tool. It also helps you to know what people mean when they talk about progressions in terms of I IV V I (blues/rock), II V I (tons of jazz tunes), or VI, III, II, V, I turnarounds.
If you are interested here is a good link to a simple explanation of chord scales...
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/chord-scale.html

Quote from: flatlander on February 03, 2010, 04:21:08 PM
Some people are indeed wired to have music and in particular, harmony, naturally wired into them. Most do not. I've always played by ear, but learning a little about chord construction and building harmonies off different intervals greatly expanding my playing.  After I understood some of these things a broader range of options became available and now over time have become "natural" so they can be very expressive and not mechanical.  Many of the chords I use now I found myself and you don't see them in books.  I may use them for thier sound or for thier function but most I found the same way. When working out a song I'm looking for a chord that is either close by where I already am or one that will have a particular movement going on say the bass line.
Knowing what chords "usually" go with what key is very helpful as well. Especially when new to playing. It can greatly reduce the time it takes to figure a song out by ear.
As far as repeating patterns, for me barre chords going up the neck make it easy enough to transpose just by shifting pattern up or down neck, but acoustic players are likely to get a lot of use out of open chords, even up the neck open chords. For lead work, simply shifting patterns works pretty good but learning and thinking about scales allowed me to bust out of over used patterns. It allowed me to begin process of meshing all the notes into one big happy stew. In other words, looking at the scales individually allowed me to think about mixing them together more.
Some people that comes naturally to as well but didn't for me. I've personally known a world class player and a good local player who knew nothing about theory. They would tell you to shut up cause you're messin thier head up. But for most it's helpful. It's very rare that you hear people who have learned some degree of theory to tell you it's a waste. It's more common to hear people who have never learned it to say it's not needed.  IMO

I can appreciate what you are saying here, and for the most part agree that most people who have gone to the trouble to learn theory would argue that there is a point to learning in it, but couldn't resist clarifying that I am classically trained myself (not on guitar, on piano and other instruments) and have Grade 8 Theory yet I prefer to play instinctively and feel I have improved a great deal in terms of general musicianship since I stopped thinking in terms of theory. I can see, though, that this approach doesn't suit everyone, my original point was simply that it is not necessary for everyone to know theory to be a good musician. Anyway, just wanted to point out that I am not someone who hasn't learned it saying it's not needed.

Quote from: tubeornot2b on February 07, 2010, 03:18:19 AM... Lots of, if not most, guitar players know little to nothing about theory. Learn a few chord forms and off they go ...

Now isn't that a rather bold statement ?

Quote from: surfinbernard on February 07, 2010, 05:27:42 AM
I can appreciate what you are saying here, and for the most part agree that most people who have gone to the trouble to learn theory would argue that there is a point to learning in it, but couldn't resist clarifying that I am classically trained myself (not on guitar, on piano and other instruments) and have Grade 8 Theory yet I prefer to play instinctively and feel I have improved a great deal in terms of general musicianship since I stopped thinking in terms of theory. I can see, though, that this approach doesn't suit everyone, my original point was simply that it is not necessary for everyone to know theory to be a good musician. Anyway, just wanted to point out that I am not someone who hasn't learned it saying it's not needed.
One thing for sure, the theory shouldn't get in the way or dictate everythng you do. On another forum a fellow just asked a simple question about how to make a chord in a different shape once he capo's up. He called the chord a sus 2 chord. That set off a way lenghy and detailed debate about proper naming of chords. One side the moderator Jon being more flexible. He's great to me. Knows his stuff inside and out but also is  practical and doesn't get hung up on everything having to be explained  in classic theory terms. The other guy everything had to be srtickly explained in classic theory terms. Bottom line is the simple question I don't think was given a valid answer! Got so hung up on chord name that most didn't realize what the question actuall was.
  I suspect knowing your theory has helped you, but sounds like  thinking in non theory terms has opened things up. For me I came from the other side. Knowing a little theory, opened things up.
I'm only interested in the aspects that make things easier or give me more ideas or options. Not theory for theorys sake. I and don't know all that much. I don't use the circle of 5ths for example and sure I don't understand all of it's uses. But I do know the place of the V chord and how it leads back to the I. Particularly a V7. Good to know for one thang as an option of changing keys. If you want to change to a particular key, you may be able to throw in that keys V7 to lead you to it.
I'm all about whatever works though!
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

      Back to the original question. The circle of Fiths (and Fourths) is a good tool, regardless of your opinion on who should/shouldn't study theory. Especialy, if you're wanting to improve (solo), or you just want to eb and flow in a jam session. It allows you to smoothly move from one key to the next without creating a train wreck. It's not about theory or anything else.
     
     Think of it as a tool in your musician's toolbelt. That's how I view theory in general. I have studied for a few years now and I also teach basic theory, but it can distract. If you approach as mere tools to create music then you won't go wrong. I mean, what would be the most efficiant way to drive a nail? A hammer. What if you don't have a hammer in your tool belt? Yeah, you could drive a nail with a hammer, but it's not the most effieciant way to do so. My point is, "theory"/music fundementals gives you the right tools to use at the right moments and frees you up to be more creative.
Sincerely,
-The Hickman

     You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
                                                       -Psalm 16:17

Quote from: The Hickman on February 07, 2010, 08:53:25 AM
      Back to the original question. The circle of Fiths (and Fourths) is a good tool, regardless of your opinion on who should/shouldn't study theory. Especialy, if you're wanting to improve (solo), or you just want to eb and flow in a jam session. It allows you to smoothly move from one key to the next without creating a train wreck. It's not about theory or anything else.
     
     Think of it as a tool in your musician's toolbelt. That's how I view theory in general. I have studied for a few years now and I also teach basic theory, but it can distract. If you approach as mere tools to create music then you won't go wrong. I mean, what would be the most efficiant way to drive a nail? A hammer. What if you don't have a hammer in your tool belt? Yeah, you could drive a nail with a hammer, but it's not the most effieciant way to do so. My point is, "theory"/music fundementals gives you the right tools to use at the right moments and frees you up to be more creative.
Sorry if I babbled a little, but I'm right with you about being a tool. Like I said, I haven't explored circle as much as I should have, partly cause I'm sure I don't see all the uses.

With key changes I understand how the V functions as leading to the I, but I'd love it if you could share the uses you've found. How do you use it in relation to solos? How do you use it to smoothly change from one key to another. Just by using theV's to lead you to a specific chord and possible key change or in other ways as well?
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: flatlander on February 07, 2010, 09:59:07 AM
With key changes I understand how the V functions as leading to the I, but I'd love it if you could share the uses you've found. How do you use it in relation to solos? How do you use it to smoothly change from one key to another. Just by using the V's to lead you to a specific chord and possible key change or in other ways as well?

There are exceptions to theses answers but would be pointless and confusing to the beginner (in music theory). To all who are classically trained please feel free to chime in and correct anything I might say that's not quite right. For the sake of learning the rudiments in theory (fundamentals) my answers are very BASIC so as not to confuse.

     1.) The Circle of Fifths is used to smoothly transition from one key by taking the player on a progression of chords that are tonally "similar" to get you to a predetermined ending key without making it sound like one is just randomly beating out whatever chord meets his/her fancy. I'll show you in my example for soloing.

      2.) In relationship to soloing- Scales (i.e diatonic major scale a.k.a. the building block of all western (hemisphere) music) are built on the particular notes that occur in a particular key. When you create a fundamental solo/lick/lead/melody you are using the notes of that key. Each basic chord in a particular key is made up of three foundational notes (I III V). When you solo you move in and out of these notes. As the chord progression changes your note options may change as well.
     ex: Key of C = Chords {"C"major "D"minor "E"minor "F"major "G"major "A"minor "B"diminished}
                          Each chord is made of three notes that determine whether or not that chord is major, minor, or diminished
                                          ex: "C" major = C E G   "D" minor = D F A  "E"minor= E G B  "F"major= F A C  "G"major= G B D  "A"minor= A C E  "B"diminished= B D F
How does this apply? Let's say that your progression is C .... Am.... F.... G....  and your solo is E.. G.. A.. E.. D.. C.. B.. D.. (I'm just making this up for the example. This isn't a actual song, and I have no idea how that would actually sound. But, for sake of the example...) If this is the chord progression your rhythm  guy is playing and this is what you are soloing on; if he modulates (changes Key) using the circle of fifths to the key of "E"major, you as a soloist can follow his progression and still main tain the same intervals (distance between to notes) in your solo. It might look like this:
      ex: Rhythm/Solo Modulating together- 
                Rhythm-  C ....  |   Am....   |    F....  |    G....     (Modulation Chord Progression)= "D"major.... {the V(5) in key of G} "A"major.... {the V(5) in key of D}   ending on "E" major {which is now the first chord in the new prog.}
                Solo-       E.. G..|  A.. E..    |  F.. C.. |  B.. D..    (Modulation Solo Progression)=      F#.. A..                                             C#.. E..
               

                New Rhythm-    E ....   |   C#m....  |     A....   |    B....         
                New Solo-     G#.. B..  | C#.. G#.. |   A.. E..  | D#.. F#..


     I got this all by using the tool of "the Circle of fifths" and the tool of "transposing", as well as, knowing the diatonic major scale for each key (therefore telling me which notes/chords occur in each key). I can explain how to transpose on another thread. Now, all of this looks real rigid, planned and lacking "IMPROVISATION", but knowing this stuff is like speaking a language. The more you practice the more fluent you get. Pretty soon, you very deliberate, planned out solos/rhythms become just you speaking thew language of music. you're not thinking about the circle of fifths or transposing or minor this major that....you just creating a piece of art and having fun. The answer to your question wasn't as easy to type as I thought it might be, but hopefully this answers your questions and inspires all to further their ability to speak the language of music.
:cheers   :guitar   :nana_guitar


Sincerely,
-The Hickman

     You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
                                                       -Psalm 16:17

Thanks! And I know about writing stuff out. Takes me a while especially trying to be certain I said everything correctly. So it is appreciated. :donut
Let me be sure of what your doing.
Your progression all put together would be this, right?
C ....  |   Am....   |    F....  |    G....  /D..../A.... E ....   |   C#m....  |  A....   |  B....    With all measures getting same amount of beats?

To be honest I'm not hearing it right off the bat, but I'm gonna keep at and study the circle of 5ths diagram, to see if it clicks.

I hope I'm not going to be confusing as I'm gonna go ahead and throw out my thoughts of the moment.  Here's a couple of thoughts relating to circle of 5ths and modulating to another key that I use now. I hope to expand after this discussion. Anyway,,,,these relate to using knowedge that the V chord leads to the I chord. So the idea is to get to the V chord of the key you want to change to.
One of these is  a gimme. That's changing key to to the IV of original key. That can be seen on diagram and I think it was mentioned earlier, The relationship between the I and IV goes both ways. Take C chord and F chord. F is the IV to C, but C is also the V to F. For example let use key of G changing to key of C so anyone who's not friends with Bb can easily do this.

G is I   C is IV and D is V in key of G
G is V if playing in keys of C   what we were talking about is using the V chord of key you want to change to, in order to reach that key.

G//// C////D//// G//// G//// C//// D//// G//// C//// F//// G//// C//// C//// F//// G//// C////
                                                      **     KEY CHANGE TO C         * the G there is used as V of C pulling it into that key of C. That's pretty smooth and simple.
Now if you wanted to change back to key of G you could use the same idea. Your going to want Mr. D chord to help right? Because he's the V of key of G.
  so you could do this.
C//// F//// G//// C//// C//// F//// G//// C/D/ G//// C////D//// G////   The quick C to D could be done in different ways to suit taste or song. They could get quick 1 beat each like shown here, or 2 beats or 4 dragging it out or even walking it up in 1/2 steps C-C#-D or some mixture. Hitting the D to set your key change in motion is the important part.
So actually we just covered two keys changes using the V as key changer. 1st example changing to key a 4th up and second changing to a key a 5th up.
In other examples you just have to figure a way to get to the V of key you want to change to. You could use circle of 5th or take a "shortcut" to get to V chord.
Those examples all all related to circle of 5ths. Theres other ways to modulate that don't, that I know of, relate to circle. Perhaps another thread.
Right now I'm going to root for the team of my favorite city and producer of my favorite music. To give a clue it has nothing to do with corn or race cars.
Thanks for reply Hickman. I'm gonna check it out more, later.

10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: flatlander on February 07, 2010, 05:44:48 PM
G//// C////D//// G//// G//// C//// D//// G//// C//// F//// G//// C//// C//// F//// G//// C////
                                                     **     KEY CHANGE TO C         * the G there is used as V of C pulling it into that key of C. That's pretty smooth and simple.

You're actually using the circle of fourths. C is the IV of Key G. F is the IV of key C.

Quote from: flatlander on February 07, 2010, 05:44:48 PM

Now if you wanted to change back to key of G you could use the same idea. Your going to want Mr. D chord to help right? Because he's the V of key of G.
 so you could do this.
C//// F//// G//// C//// C//// F//// G//// C/D/ G//// C////D//// G////   The quick C to D could be done in different ways to suit taste or song.
This isn't quite using the circle of fifths. It would be more like a "pivot chord" . This would be a harsh pivot too seeing how Cmajor and Dmajor don't really relate to each other when you come from Cmajor.
Sincerely,
-The Hickman

     You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
                                                       -Psalm 16:17

Quote from: Queequeg on January 13, 2010, 07:28:05 AM


I'm reposting this to show that, clockwise is the circle of fifths and counterclockwise is the circle of fourths. Both are used the same way.
Sincerely,
-The Hickman

     You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
                                                       -Psalm 16:17

 I did read some more last night, a pretty long article. It talked about 2 main uses. One was to know about key signitures, which is of little use to me EXCEPT in how it helps you understand
the second use which is modulating. You can see how each cycle you move over adds 1 sharp or one flat. Or subtracts 1 depending on which way you are going. So the bottom is that there is only one note different in those keys and that's why they make for a smooth transition. So yes, I can see where modulating to next door key in circle, in either direction, would be smooth. I've just always thought of it as the V chord pulling to "IT'S"  I.  Later I'm gonna play with modulating to original keys V instead of IV like previous examples.  I know I do that already, particulary in a couple fiddle tunes, but I'm gonna actually think about it! Thanks 
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Now isn't that a rather bold statement ?

it was not meant as a slur towards those who study guitar or consider themselves "serious" guitar players. Granted I could be wrong, but I think that there are many many more people out there learn how to play a few (to some) songs that they like, with not much intent, or interest in, taking it any further. I just think that it is quite likely that they outnumber those more interested in a deeper understanding of the instrument or theory in general. The statement was directed to the original question... did he need to know it?

In practical reality, with the wide availability of TABS and video lessons (including You Tube) one can (and many,if not most) learn how to play lots of songs, even with complicated chord voicings, with no clue about the theory behind it all. But are you better off with it.. of course.... The Hickman does an excellent job highlighting the merger of circle of 5ths knowledge, with the chord scales I alluded to.

Flatlander... not sure if yo looked at it like this, but a lot of what the The Hickman's sequence used was 5 (V) of 5 (V) movement, where rather than going from V to the I, you use the similarity of, or shared scale tones, to move to/through the V of V sequence....looking at it like this might help... He started of on C moved to Am (the VI in C), to F (IV of C), to G7 (V of C), then a series of V of Vs. Spelling out the chords may allow it to make a lot more sense....

C Major = C E G (A)
Am       = A C E (G)
F Maj    = F A C (E)
G7        = G B D F

then the fun begins...

G7 = G B D F          G major  = G B D F#

D7 = D F# A C        D Major 7 = D F# A C#

A7 = A C# E G        A Major 7 = A C# E G#

E7 = E G# B D        E Major 7 = E G# B D#

B7 = B D# F# A       B Major 7 = B D# F# A#

Chromatic movement back to C where...

C = C E G B             C7 = C E G Bb

The shared scale tones and direct movement along the circle of 5ths is what makes the movement less jarring. Of course, that being said,  sometimes jarring movement is actually the intent.  

Also, knowing the key signatures might make it easier to read lead sheets, if you want to use them to come up with voice leading arrangements, based on the melody line.


Quote from: The Hickman on February 08, 2010, 06:52:33 PM
You're actually using the circle of fourths. C is the IV of Key G. F is the IV of key C.
Thanks, I'm trying to sort the things in this thread this a.m. Seems I don't know which direction I'm going!
Quote from: The Hickman on February 08, 2010, 06:52:33 PM
C//// F//// G//// C//// C//// F//// G//// C/D/ G//// C////D//// G////  
This isn't quite using the circle of fifths. It would be more like a "pivot chord" . This would be a harsh pivot too seeing how Cmajor and Dmajor don't really relate to each other when you come from Cmajor.
The circle part would be D to G. But perhaps terminolgy wrong as you explained. I was still stuck on the V leading to the I thing. Perhaps circle of IV's. The C to D or moving up a  step, often via the 1/2, was just using a common simple modulation used in a lot of country and rock&roll. Here's an example by The Doctor. at about 1:40 in he goes down a whole step for short break,
then back up a whole. He just jumps right to it. So yea, he goes down first, but when he comes back, same thing, modulating up a step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JESFMO1Hl4M
So that is a common thing that can sound fine in right perspective. I just combined that idea with V leading to I (circle of IV's).
So the C-D has nothing to do with circle 4th's or 5th's. That was just a way to get to place where you COULD use them. I think I finally found out why using a II as a major works and is used in so many cases, say especially gospel, weather staying in original key or modulating. So there's a way to explain why a II could be Maj instead of Minor, and how it relates, but for now at least, that would be another thread.    Oh the term "pivot chord" for  D I like..
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.


Hickman modulation progression:
  Rhythm-  C ....  |   Am....   |    F....  |    G....     (Modulation Chord Progression)= "D"major.... {the V(5) in key of G} "A"major.... {the V(5) in key of D}   ending on "E" major {which is now the first chord in the new prog.}
               
New Rhythm-    E ....   |   C#m....  |     A....   |    B....         
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------         
Ok 2bornot and Hickman, Help me out here if you have time. I'm still trying to get this to sound right. I'm sure it would help if I heard it played,  just as Hickman didn't hear my C-D to G mod.
I've thought about this several ways but first off Hickman, all that's happening here is just changing progression up 2 steps via the D and A right?
C    Am    F     G  =  E    C#m   A    B
I     VI     IV   V  =   I     VI      IV   V   
All these 4 beats each, right?
Thru the modulating process G to D ok, D to A ok. But A to E  AND STARTING PROGRESSION IN NEW KEY RIGHT THEN  I must not be hearing right or theres something I'm missing.
Could be as simple as # of beats. All all chords getting 4 beats? That how I took the 4 .... after each chord.  Several different takes on number of beats/where can help it in my head.
For example just two beats for D and A in a kinda stop time thing. Or numerous other changes in amount of beats for different chords during Mod. That could all very well be caused by preconcieved notions on my part. So really only questions for Hickman are: Same progression in C then in E with D and A as bridge (modulating vehicle) in between, right? And do all chords get same amount of beats?
Ok 2BorNot2b. This question is going to hurt my head and, probably yours as well and may cause some to jump off a bridge. I'll try to keep it simple.
V of V
Easy enough to see G to D as V of V. G was V of original key, and you are going to it's V. So V of V
So now you're on D. Is it helpful to think of D as the V of G? If you think of it like that, does it not imply that you are in key of G? Is it helpful at all to even think of these two modulating chords D and A as really being in a key or just 1 offs. if you will. Solo notes would strickly be playing out of chord?  Same with A, think in terms of it being V of D? I see they are moving in 5ths but not sure how the V of V fits in.  Ok that wasn't so bad after all.

Next. You went ahead and showed full chords. Maj/min 7ths for I-VI-IV-V and that's all good.
Why showing both those 7ths and dominant 7ths further on? Something to know about those?
Also, what you wrote was a take off of Hickmans original progression right?
Starting with E he was just repeating C progression. Did you just miss putting the C#min and A back in, or were you saying something else?
I do hear where you could chromatically slip back into C from B. Not B7 but B but kinda confused about the dominant 7ths and missing C#m and A.
Just trying make make sure I'm getting what you're saying. Thanks  matt



 
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

Quote from: flatlander on February 20, 2010, 06:36:15 AM
So really only questions for Hickman are: Same progression in C then in E with D and A as bridge (modulating vehicle) in between, right? And do all chords get same amount of beats?

Yes, The progression in C is the same in E. (I iv IV V)
Yes, for simplicity sake, I wrote all chords with 4beats each. The  four "periods" after each chord represent each beat.

     Also, I want to encourage you to first learn your key signatures. Learning this will make what you are trying to accomplish SO MUCH easier. You need to become fluent in that first before you will have a good understanding of the circle of fifths/fourths and modulating. I wasn't trying to show you how to modulate, necessarily, but rather answer your question on how the Circle of Vs could be used practically. There are so many ways to modulate from one key to the next. Your first example was another way to modulate, it wasn't "wrong" it just wasn't using the Circle of Vs. There isn't a "short cut" to using the Circle of Vs. It's used for making transitions flow together smoothly.
     I gave an example of using it while improving as a band. You could also use it for a recording project. Knowing which tracks to place your songs and even creating a transition track so that one track flows nicely to the next to avoid abrupt starts and stops. This is a good way to create a very fluid album. Also, a similar application would be to use it during a live performance.

     Using the Circle of Fifths, typically, is a 'long and drawn out" way of transitioning. Doing it this way creates "flow". Again, if you are simply trying to modulate, you don't HAVE to use the Circle of Vs. You can use a pivot chord or just do a direct modulation (like you did in your first example). Both ways, if used in taste, can provide a VERY dynamic progression.

flatlander, hopefully this clears up some of your confusion:

     You have a song in the key of C but you want to get that same song to the key of E. You need to write our that song in both keys then ask your self. "What is the most dynamic way to get from C to E?" and, "What is the 'mood' of the piece of music I am working on?" IMO, if the "mood" of the song is somewhat somber and slow, and with that much of a gap in keys it is better to use the Circle of Vs because those keys have more differences then similarities. But if the song is more up beat and funky I would use a more abrupt modulation. probably two direct modulations, first to the key of D then to the key of E.

     If your starting key is C and you want to modulate to D, IMO, the a direct modulation would be the best using a simple instrumental rest (or "break") to transition from one key to the next. This is because you are only moving up one whole step. (this by the way is the most common modulation in western music (western hemisphere not country, that I'm aware of   :smile: ) This is very Dynamic and invokes a feeling of some sort of "release" or a "leveling off" feeling. This is due to the fact that typically the song is building up dramatically in the original key before the modulation occurs.

     The other example of modulating was the pivot chord. For example, your original key is, again, C and you want to modulate to the key of F, pivoting on the Bb7 would be a common pivot chord. Bb is the "flat seven" from the key of C or the "major four" in the key of F.


Again, this would all be VERY confusing if you are not very familiar with key signatures. My suggestion is for you to first learn which notes/chords are in each key. Your formula for finding the major scale is this:

Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Whole Step, Half Step

On a horizontal chart for guitar it looks like this:
Key C

e    |    |    |     |    |    |
b    |    |    |     |    |    |
G    | 0 |    | 0 | 0 |    |
D    | 0 | 0 |    | 0 |    |
A    |    | 0 |    | 0 |    |
E    |    |     |    |    |    |

Spelled out witht he musical alphabet:
Key C

                I          ii          iii   IV        V         vi         vii    I
A  A# B  C  C# D  D# E  F  F# G  G# A  A# B  C  C# D  D# E  F  F# G  G#
              |---W---|--W---|-H-|--W--|---W---|---W---|-H-|
Sincerely,
-The Hickman

     You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.
                                                       -Psalm 16:17

Thanks Hickman. That all makes sense. Just a matter of getting "feel" of going thru D and A to E. It's  starting to feel more natural from dinking around with it this morning.
I think from my understanding at this point, I would use the circle straight out as modulating tool some times, and at other times use it as part of the process.
Although I followed everything you said quite easily, learning the key signitures should br REAL easy and could come in handy. I'm not sure why but I'm sure it would. :humour:
Just kidding. I mean it's easy enough to see 1 step either direction adding or dropping a sharp or flat by moving a IVth or Vth, but it would help when goal is to get somewhere else and seeing whats between or what path to take. I'm sure other uses as well.  Problem is it could start to tarnish my image and could even lead to reading music and doing things the easy and right way!
10-1614 more than a number, it's body and soul.

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