Learning the fingerboard

[tubeornot2b]

do you mean the E on th 12th fret of the high E string > like in the 2nd bar of this arrangement...  http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/keroas/shadowofyoursmile.pdf

By the way the site is a gold mine of lovely arrangements.

[golfer]

tube;  yes, that is the E I was refrencing as an example.  Nice song by the way.  The point I was attempting to make is I can not find anything in the way of practice material to learn to vusually see that note and then refrence it on the frett board.  I have a practice book by Berklee that takes me thtough the 5th position or frett and give several practice scales etc. to learn how to read the note and find it on the frett board.
  Thanks for looking and best wishes.

[golfer]

Hey, I have a question on the pentatonics.  With each of the 5 positions of the minor pentatonics, does the root every change, or is it constant no matter what key you are in?  I attempted to go through a couple keys and it seems to remain constant, is that correct?
  How about for the other pentatonic scales?

[tubeornot2b]

Golfer, today I was looking through a book I have had around, nut not spent enough time with. The book is called Through Chord Melody and Beyond by Howard Morgen. The book uses an excellent selection of some true classic jazz standards, as the basis for it's example exercises. But the concepts apply to any fingerstyle arrangement you wish to use.
Right off the bat, he starts off with the some chord melody arrangement exercises. He gives you a set of chord diagrams you can use. Gives you 2 bar segments of the written music and tab, sound right up your alley. First thing he does is transpose the melody line up an octave. Then has you figure out the chords to use, which allow you to keep the transposed melody, as the highest voice in the chord. This plays directly to your knowledge of written music and your desire to link that to the fretboard. He includes examples of his concepts. 

Use the LOOK INSIDE! this book function of Amazon and you will see some if his examples between pages 9 and 12. His concepts are clearly written with excellent examples. check it out here...   

http://www.amazon.com/Howard-Morgen-Through-Melody-Enhanced/dp/0739049844/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267760579&sr=8-1

Not sure which 5 pentatonics positions you are referring to... there are many concepts out there, but if you are talking about any given scale pattern, that is moved up and down the neck, to change keys, then the root, 2nd, 3rd, 5th etc. will repeat as a constant.

[flatlander]

Hey, I have a question on the pentatonics.  With each of the 5 positions of the minor pentatonics, does the root every change, or is it constant no matter what key you are in?  I attempted to go through a couple keys and it seems to remain constant, is that correct?
 How about for the other pentatonic scales?

YES! If I understand the question correctly, you're having the "Ah ha" moment about patterns!


Look at this diagram again.  Just look at position one, but this would apply to all positions. If you look at the position/key chart it tells you where each position will start, for each key.
For key=A it tells you that the first postion will start on fret 5. The > on fret board diagram indicates that starting fret. In A the root will appear  6th string/5th fret   4th string/7th fret
and 1st string/5th fret. Those are all A notes.

  Now, take that same postion for key of B. From chart you can tell it now starts on 7th fret. Of course! It moved up from A to B...a whole step=2 frets.   So the whole pattern just moved up 2 frets. Now you are still using that same pattern and the root note of key, now B, stays in same place within that pattern.
So now, the root, B, appears on 6th string/7th fret   4th string/9th fretand 1st string/7h fret. Those are all B notes, the root.

See that's the thing. Once you learn those patterns, they apply equally to all keys, it's just a matter of where you play them on the neck. True for other pentatonics as well. For that matter any type of scale you see as a pattern.  I hope that's what you meant, because that's what I've been hoping to get you to see.
The same would apply to the major scale you've been learning. If you see that scale as a pattern of notes, scoot the whole pattern up a whole step, 2 frets, and you go from C major scale to D
major scale. The root stays in same place relitive to pattern, so it moves up 2 frets. When I'm sure you understand that part I'm anxious to show you a magic trick about relation between major and minor pentatonics, if you haven't disovered it yet.

[golfer]

tube;  Hey thanks for the lead on the book.  I sent for it today to give it a go.  I also sent for book II by Berklee which is supposed to cover the fingerboard. 

flatlander;  Yahoo, thanks, that is what I was hoping to find.  I tried going through a couple keys, but things still get kind of mixed up as I progress.  I am seeing the value of these patterns whether pentatonics, major scale or other.  Your right, another ah ha moment.
  Oh, can't waite for the magic trick regarding major vs; minor pentatonics.  Have a good weekend.

Thanks and Best wishes to you all.

[littleAngel89]

  I am attempting to use more that the 1st 4 fretts of my guitar and have been looking for a good instruction book on the fingerboard.  Thought some of you might help me with some good ideas.
  Thanks for your help and best wishes for the holidays.

That's really difficult skill that I also want to master.
By the way, you should spend time to google. There are many sources that provide detailed instructions

[golfer]

litleAngel89; thanks for your reply.  Yes, Google is my friend, do you have anything specific in mind?
  Best wishes.

[flatlander]

  Oh, can't waite for the magic trick regarding major vs; minor pentatonics.  Have a good weekend.

I haven't forgotten, just think it's best to let this stuff gel a minute. Let me know when when you really got solid, the idea of moveable patterns.

[golfer]

Flatlander;  glad you haven't forgotten the magic trick, I've been thinking about you. 
I have the concept of the movable patterns down pretty well and have been trying to memorize the 5 pentatonic forms.  Was working on the 4th last night.  The hard part seems to be getting the different root positions in my head.  When you finally got it throuh to me that these forms were movable up and down the neck and the root remained constant; I was able  to see the real value ofthe forms.
  At the same time, I have been working to learn the fretboard from the 5th pisition which incorporates the  and 9th frett with the major scales.  Can identify written music with that so it is coming along thanks to you and tobeornot.
  Have been wondering if it is practical to write out the scale forms for the C maj. scale and compare that with the pentatonic scales.  Never enough time.
  Another thing I've been doing for the past few months or so is movable chord forms and even though I'm making slow progress, I really don't quite have the Ah Ha thing going with them.
  Feels like I'm back in school.  By the time I get through with my study, there doesn't seem to be much time for playng music.  I think that will come though.
  Do you think I am ready for the magic trick yet?
  LittleAngel;  Hope you are keeping up with this, I am finding it is workth the effort.

[flatlander]

 Your working with Major Pentatonics right now right?
Here's what I'm thinking. You're taking in a lot right now and stated goal was to learn finger board. While the pentatonics are limited, they make it easier to get a picture of how the whole fretboard is laid out. I'm not worried about the limited part in your case, because you seem well committed to going back and filling in blanks later. So I'd say commit those patterns to memory.
That's gonna take a little time. As far as Major scale overlaid on it I'd say just learn where the root is. Taking a look and comparing to major scale wouldn't be a bad idea to keep things in perspective, but I would focus on MAJOR pents AND where the root is. Once you get even a position or 2 down good, put on some simple music and play along. If you are in the right pattern position for key, it's hard to go wrong. Once those patterns are set in concrete, and you know where the root is, it's pretty easy to complete the scale. Your just missing 2 notes. And if you know where the root is you know one of those notes is directly below root (VII) and the other is direct above 3rd. (IV) by directly, I mean 1 fret.
My suggestion is to focus on Major pents now with goal of seeing the whole major scale within them next.
When you learn to major pents patterns well, the minor pent patterns are going to be simple. Why? I'll go ahead and tell you, but I really suggest you save them for after you get 1st 2 steps done.
The minor pentatonic patterns are the same as the Major pentatonic patterns! If you scoot the patterns up 3 frets and play them against same key as the Major was in  frets down. WA LA. minor pent. Seems like magic huh? That's just the way it works out with the Major useing 1-2-3-5-6 And the minor using 1-b3-4-5-b7. The patterns end up being the same. That used to blow my mind of how that worked out. Anyway. MAJOR FIRST. Cause see it's going to be easier for you to see the Major scale out of Major Pent. Keep all those notes and then just add 2 more. The minor pents aren't based on Major scale. After you get major pents and whole major scale, then look and minor pents and analyze if you want, or just use them to cheat and play the blues! Hope I didn't ramble too much.

Can you give an example of a moveable chord that your not understanding? They are pretty much under the same concept of moveable patterns. With an example, might be able to explain.

[golfer]

Flatlander;  working right now with minor pentatonics.  NOt sure why I started that way, other than about every book I look at begins with the minor pents, and, I the diagrams we worked with earlier were for minor pents.  Wonder if I shoud back up and take a look at the major pentatonics.  I am understanding so much more of what this is about, it may make little difference where I begin as I can visualise the end goal.
  Working hard to commit them to memory and get some idea of how to use them on the frettboard.
  Wow; that is magic.  I assume since I am working with the minor pents, I just move them down 3 fretts in the same key.
  Movable chords:  OK, here I am trying to talk about something I know nothing about again.  I have been studing movable chords for a few months now; bar chords, their roots and how they move up and down the neck.  Last night I read about the CAGED system and saw how it related to the pentatonic scales.  The example showed the CAGED diagrams as if they were barred then pictured the bar in each of the 5 pentatonic scales.  I could see the C in #1 and on through the D in #5.  Not sure how to use that yet, but it was interesting. 
  I think the ting that throws me off with chords is how they change shape, yet remain the same chord.  Ther seem to be an endless array of ways to make a C chord and then the books talk about progressions from the 7 to 9 etc.  Not yet being quick enough to keep up, I get left behind quickly.  I wonder if there is any kind of Ah HA thing for learning chords and progressions. 
  Hope you're haveing a great weekend.
  Best wishes.

[flatlander]

Flatlander;  working right now with minor pentatonics.  NOt sure why I started that way, other than about every book I look at begins with the minor pents, and, I the diagrams we worked with earlier were for minor pents.  Wonder if I shoud back up and take a look at the major pentatonics.

If you're working on seeing the major do-re-me scale out of the pents. Major would be easier. The minor pents are for blues so your shape has a couple of flatted notes in it that aren't in major scale.
The major pent IS the major scale. Just missing 2 notes. If you start getting your references off of major scale things should be clearer. And that's how music is explained, as it relates to major scale.
Yes drop pattern 3 frets to be major. I might be able to kill 2 birds with one stone here. I'm gonna take a minute So Do THIS!
Take a piece of minor pent at 5th fret.
1/-----5------------8-------------
2/-----5------------8------------
3/-----5------------7------------
4/------5-----------7-------------

Play an A chord barred at 5th fret (F shape chord on 5th fret,,,,,,A.
Strum the chord twice, then run right down that pattern. Do it a few times. It has a blues feel.
Now drop everything 3 frets.

1/-----2------------5-------------
2/-----2------------5------------
3/-----2------------4------------
4/-----2------------4------------

Now play your regular ole open A chord on 2nd fret and do the same thing. Just run down the pattern hitting each note. Hear hows it's all happy and majory now?

Now part 2. Stay looking at 2nd fret position. See how the A chord is embedded in the pattern? The regular major triad has all it's notes in the major scale and they are all in the major pentatonic
scale. THAT"S what makes it easier the see the chords out of the major pents, besides giving you a better starting point to se you whole mojor scale.

1/-----2--------4------5-------------
2/-----2-----3---------5------------
3/-----2(root)-------------4------------
4/----(2)------------------(4)-------------------

So the major triad is right there to be seen  and plus all you have to do is add the 2 red notes to complete scale. (RED DIDN"T SHOW FOR SOME REASON)
NOW compare that to minor pent against chord 3 frets up.

1/-----5------------8-------------
2/-----5------------8------------
3/-----5------------7------------
4/------5-----------7-------------
First off you can't see your A chord within pattern (F shaped chord on 5th fret) Why? Because the scale has been minipulated already.
1/-----5------------8-------------
2/-----5------------8------------
3/-----5-(-6-)-----------7------------
4/------5-----------7(root)-------------
The 3rd note of scale (-6-) was flattened. So that note, which is part of the major triad, isn't in pattern.
Also 2nd string 8th fret doesn't belong in major scale. So if your goal is to visualize the fretboard in reference to seeing major scale and major triads out of pents, it would be confusing to try to see them out of minor pents with it's flatted 3rd and 7th.  Make sense?

As far as moveable chords. Well first off for now you might want to drop the G shape. Yea I guess it's moveable but.............all I can say is it stays right at home as the peoples chord for me.
I mean thats a pain to get a barre under that whole chord! If you plan on conquering the world, learn it by all means. I visualize it up the neck for certain things but never do I play the whole shape.
And I see D shape and C scape as the same thing really. I'm getting off track.
Just take an open D chord. Scoot it up 1 fret and it's Eb, 2 frets and it's E chord. So same shape can be all the chords, just depends how far you scoot it up.
Your open E. Scoot it up a fret and it an F. (you have to barre so you move all the nut notes up as well. Keep going one fet at a time, F#-G -Ab-A (the chord we used in pent example above.
It'll click and then you'll go DUH, just like I did.

[golfer]

Flatlander:  Was a busy weekend/week, haven't had much time to review this.
Got a question regarding your first example;  When I play the minor pent A chord, then move down 3 fretts to the major pent, is that still in the key of A?  If so, do the roots change accordingly?  I could probably figure this out, but being lazy, thought I would ask you first.
  OK, I understand your suggestion to work with the major pents first.  Since I am at this time just trying to learn the 5 shapes, I think I can easily spin over to the major pents.  I assume the roots change for the majors vs: the minors at each position.  Perhaps I can find a breakdown on the net.
  May as well try using one of those new words, major triad in your expample; are we talking now about the 1[A], 2[C#],3[E]?
  Moving on just a bit; I pretty well understand the bar chords and their root positions and how they work. 
[attempted to add a photo of bar chords]
It's the progressions that tend to really throw me.
Question for you; I understand where the 7th position comes from with chords, but if there are only 7 notes on the scale, how can we have a 9th?
[how do you add scans or photos, can't seem to make it work?]
I'm trying that for now.  Any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome?
  Thanks and best wishes.

 

[flatlander]

where the root is in relation to the pattern changes, yes.

Take a piece of minor pent at 5th fret.
1/-----5------------8-------------
2/-----5------------8------------
3/-----5------------7 root
4/------5-----------7-------------


1/-----2------------5-------------
2/-----2------------5------------
3/-----2root------4------------
4/-----2------------4------------

remember for the major pent scale, it is the major scale  minus 2 notes. It is the 1-2-3-5-6 degrees of scale. In other word  do-re-me-so-la   fa and ti left out.
for the minor pent it's quite different 1-b3-4-5-b7.  So three of the notes, or shall we say degrees of the scale are different. Thats why minor pents are so common with blues. The flatted 7th and flatted 3rd notes are the main feel in the blues (next is flatted 5th)

Are you still in A in either case? Let's just put it like this for now. If you play out of the A major pent patterns while playing out of the key of A ie A-D-E chords, it will have that major feel, not bluesy.
If you scoot it up three frets and use the A minor pent pattern against that same A-D-E chords, you'll be playing in a much more bluesy fashion because you're playing the flatted 3 and flatted 7th.
The A minor pent scale works well of course when playing out of Am  using chords Am-Dm and E or E7.

Major triad is just your basic chord with no added notes or altered notes. Like C-D-E-F-G-A-B chords. They are called triad because they are made up of 3 notes. The 1-3-5 notes out of the scale which is that chords name. For C it's C-E-G  for D chord it's the 1-3-5 out of D scale D-F#-A.  If you take any of the regular major chords, you'll see that there only 3 notes in it. Some are repeated or an octave away, but only 3 notes. A triad usually refers to just making the chord with 3 notes with none repeated. The main triads, at least in my way of thinking, are the 3 FRETTED note in open E chord, open A chord, and open D chord. I wrote a bunch on what you could do with a good understanding of those three shapes in the "3rd's and Beyond" thread.

http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=23857.0

"Question for you; I understand where the 7th position comes from with chords, but if there are only 7 notes on the scale, how can we have a 9th?"
1st off position is the wrong word.  Your talking about extended chords.  Extended chords 9ths-11th's 13ths and so named by adding that degree of scale to a dom 7th chord.
The 8th note of scale would be octive, which of course is same name as root. The 9th inote of scale is the same as second, 11th same as 4th, 13th same as 6th.  The difference between them and a +2   sus 4th or 6th chord is that they are added IN ADDITION TO the flatted 7th note . At the beginning of same 3rds and byond thread, there is a post on how chords are built/named, fyi.
1-------------------------------------------------
2---(1(root)-------3---------------------------------------
3-------------------------------------------------
4---------------------2--------------------------------------
5---------------------3---------------------------------------
6-------------------------------------------------
  C+2 chord  this is just a C chord where you added a 2nd above where the root used to be on 2nd string.

1-------------------------------------------------
2---(1(root)-------3--------------------------
3---------------------3-(b7)--------------------------
4---------------------2---------------------------
5---------------------3----------------------------
6-------------------------------------------------
C9 chord.  Here you are adding the same note to a C7 chord but it's now called a 9th because it's based off of or the note is added to a Dom 7th chord (C7)

So short asnswer is your just counting up in degrees of scale and when you get passed octive they become 9th etc. Longer answer is they are also add to 7th chords. The 9th isn't always going to be up on top either. It could concievably be in the bass.

[golfer]

flatlander;  Yes, makes sense to me the differences between the Maj. and Minor pents.
  Your magic tip on the scale shapes being the same on the frett board really opened up a new horizon for me.  I am attempting to visualize the Major pent against the minor.  The primary shape is still not set in my mind, but I believe it will come.  I also noted that several of the root positions are shared by the previouis or next chord shape, something I didn't realise until today.
  Yes, I can hear the major vs; minor sound as I move on the frett board using the same chord positions.
  Thank you for the link on the chord construction.  That is most helpful in getting me to use and understand the language of music a little better.  I will study it.
  The info for extended chords is as I imagined it.  Whoope
  Flatlander, you have taken this guy from just beginning to understand the 1st 5 fretts to now being able to play [all be it slowely] up to the 9th.  I have a grasp of the pentatonic scales, major and minor for now, and am attempting to play with them, and the beginning of chord construction.
  I can't thank you enough for your patience and help.  I'm sure you will hear more from me.
  Best wishes.

[flatlander]

Thank you. There's PLENTY for me so learn and execute, but after scraping and digging what I could out on my own for so long, I truely enjoy it when some one pays attention and gets something out of it when I try to share.
Plus it solidifies things in my head and often I'll see one more little tid bit just by thinking about it when I try to share with someone else.

[golfer]

flatlander, tobeornot, others:  Thought I would give you an update.
  Because of your wonderfull instrucion, I am beginning to get a firm grasp on the frettboard and pentatonics.  It is somewhat frustrating because I have a mental picture of what you have shown me, but am not able to perform at that level yet.
  I have worked in the minor pentatonics and found a diagram of the major scale 5 positions which I [didn't know it] already had a pretty good grasp of from learning the C major scale up and down the neck.  I now include working the major positons in my practice as well as the minor pentatonic positions.  Note:  I am not talking about the major pentatonic positions but the major scale positions which I am thinking might be one step better than just learning the major pentatonic positins.
  You have taught me how to understand the numbering system and how it works with chords.  This has always confused me.
  With your help, I am learning to read music note by note as it relates to each position of the frettboard.
  You have brought me a long way into understanding the guitar and I am truly grateful.
  I still have many weaknesses one of which is chord theory and I thought to begin a post on that soon as I'm thinking it wold be great if I could work that into my practice sessions.  Lately my practice includes as much music theory as learning songs which frustratingly has slowed progress there, but I can see a whole new level coming on the horizon.
  Thanks again for all your help and best wishes.

[flatlander]

Cool golfer. You may wanna check out that 3rds and beyond thread that I think I put a link up for earlier in this thread. If not I could post it again. Its a little different approach to learning chords.
Chords are basically built by stacking 3rds. The thread talks about using just 3rds for fills, lead etc but it also shows where there are coming from chord wise. It's kinda like learning chord theory, just for basic chords, from the inside out. You just learn 2 notes to start with, but once you see how those 2 notes are part of a chord, you can add the next note and have the triad, It also talks about once you know which notes are 1-3-5 of chord, how you can build other chords off of them. Anyway thanks for update. matt