does bolt on neck equal metallic tone ?

Started by lw216316, September 28, 2009, 07:38:20 AM

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Quote from: jeremy3220 on September 30, 2009, 03:04:21 PM
How so? You can't see the joint. And how do you know if its well executed or not?

:+1: :+1:

The only clue that a Collings has a bolted neck, is the fact that the web-site states it as such. (Same for the 16-series Martins)
"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure

Quote from: jeremy3220 on September 28, 2009, 12:59:10 PM
I personally will take a bolt on over one of Larrivee's shimmed up dovetails any day.

Interesting statement.. Checked out this link, and it appears to reset a neck, involves filling spaces with shims.. - so there goes the "perfect fit" theory anyway..
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00045Reset/00045reset5.html
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00028Reset/00028reset02.html

The more I think and read about it, the more I'm convinced I chose the correct option of a bolted neck for my custom OM.
"To me...music exists to elevate us as far as possible above everyday life." ~ Gabriel Faure

Maybe if done right, both are just as good as an option and we are just splitting hairs, I think we all can agree that there are some awesome sounding guitars on both sides of the debate.
bluesman67
HOGTOP CHARLOTTE

www.reverbnation.com/hogtopcharlotte

 :+1: bluesman67 and the real ? is does anyone really care its all about feel and tone.
A REPAIRPERSON,Barefoot Rob gone to a better place
OM03PA.98 L10 Koa
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
rpjguitarworks
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I'd like to meet the person who could inspect and listen to my one guitar that features a bolt on neck, and tell me how it is different from a dove tail.  I sure can't see the difference, and we all know that even guitars of the same model can sound different from one to the other. 

I believe that this is referred to as a distinction without a difference...
jb

Well, I can build a bureau and put it together with bolts or dowels. In the end, both may work fine. However, one seems like master woodworking, the other like master mechanics. You makes your decision, you pays your money and you takes your chances. However, five or six K for bolt on necks? Not for this cowboy.

Duck - I've never paid 5K or 6K for any guitar, and expect I never will. And after playing a Bourgeois mahogany banjo killer, I thought my basic L05 measured up to it just fine...

I think both are perfectly acceptable construction techniques, if done well by an experienced builder. The dovetail techniques requires a little more finesse, and is a little harder to get perfect, but creates a lightweight joint that is very tight and holding the neck in every angle. The bolt-on requires less finesse to build, but is far easier to do badly - if you are relying on tightening some bolts, it is easy to not make the fit of the joint as accurate and tight as appropriate, relying on the steel studs for that. But it does add more weight at the joint, which may be quite noticable in the balance of the guitar.

Its not the technique that is good or bad, its all up to the person using it and how well they do it.

Tad

But the lightning safety question is a new one -  :laughin:
Bunch of Larrivees - all good -
and a wife that still puts up with me, which is the best -

Most guitars in the 5-6K range are going to have a bolt on neck. It seems most builders use bolt ons now and those that offer dovetails offer it only as an option to the their standard bolt on neck.


Quote from: tadol on October 05, 2009, 11:01:51 AM
I think both are perfectly acceptable construction techniques, if done well by an experienced builder. The dovetail techniques requires a little more finesse, and is a little harder to get perfect, but creates a lightweight joint that is very tight and holding the neck in every angle. The bolt-on requires less finesse to build, but is far easier to do badly - if you are relying on tightening some bolts, it is easy to not make the fit of the joint as accurate and tight as appropriate, relying on the steel studs for that. But it does add more weight at the joint, which may be quite noticable in the balance of the guitar.


If the only difference is the neck joint a bolt on can weigh less. If you use a bolt on butt joint you can compensate for the tiny amount of added weight of the buttons by making the neck block smaller(the dovetail requires so much wood to form a mortise and tenon).

The dread I built with a bolt on neck weighs less than my Larrivee OM.

I will add that bolt on neck guitars do tend to lean to a brighter, sound.  Reason being the "bolt on" is a tighter fit from neck to body than the dove tail. This dove tail is not so much looser, but has more room to move or vibrate.  Not to mention it is easier to do a neck reset with bolt on.  Not better or worse, but different.  I have both and they are fine either way.
A bunch of great guitars I don't deserve and a gaggle of fly rods.... Aint life grand?

one thing to mention is that with a bolt you need a nut and nuts don't attach very well to wood.Also some companies are using wood screw's and even then some still glue the tenion joint anyway.
A REPAIRPERSON,Barefoot Rob gone to a better place
OM03PA.98 L10 Koa
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
rpjguitarworks
Call PM me I may be able to help

Larry,
You should have been able to refute the statement yourself. In the last 2 years I've acquired (in order): a Taylor 214, Larrivee L-03, Collings OM2Hc and the newest member of the family, Rosie (H&D 00-sp). 3 bolt-ons and a dovetail (Larrivee). The most metallic was the 214 and I sold it. The sweetest, richest is your old (well...) Rosie with the other 2 close behind. It does seem like the manufacturers could develop a system that wouldn't give unclrob the 'grumps'.

Personally I'm sold on the concept.

f :thumb
Larrivee L-03 w/Gotoh 381 tuners (African Mahogany/Sitka)
Collings OM2Hc (EIR/Sitka)
Schenk Ophirio (Sapele/Cedar)
Bourgeois 00 Custom (Mahogany/It. Spruce)

QuoteLarry,
You should have been able to refute the statement yourself

Yes, I had my opinion, but wanted to see what others had to say....
especially since I have a lot of respect for the guy who favored the dovetail so highly.

By asking questions I've leared a lot  (and by my own private research).
Two years ago I did not know the difference between a nut and a saddle when it comes to guitars.
I just played and never gave any thought to the actual parts and construction.

My thanks to all who have patiently answered my questions since I've been here  :thumb

- Larry

PLAY SONG , LIVE LONG !

Larrivee OOO-60 - Lady Rose
Pavan TP-30 classical - nylon
Takamine 132s classical -nylon
former Larrivees  L-03R  SD-50

Fred see if you don't get the grumps if you've got to fix it...... :thumb :humour:


The worst are the nut and bolts one's :arrow
A REPAIRPERSON,Barefoot Rob gone to a better place
OM03PA.98 L10 Koa
Favorite saying
 OB LA DE OB LA DA,LIFE GOES ON---BRA,It is what it is,You just gotta deal it,
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity, Keith and Barefoot Rob on youtube
Still unclrob
#19
12 people ignoring me,so cool
rpjguitarworks
Call PM me I may be able to help

One point on the Taylor NT neck system.  I have seen the factory videos, and there is no glue involved at all.  The fretboard extension that sits on the top is located in a routed area.  A neck re-set on a Taylor NT neck involves removing the bolts, lift the neck out, use factory supplied sets of shims to change the angle, and bolt it back together again.  I have removed the neck on a Taylor Big Baby (less sophiticated version of the true NT neck system), swapped out the shim, and put it back together in about 15 minutes.  Someone from Taylor sent me a set of shims for this operation.  Again, no glue at all.

I can go either way on dovetail vs bolt on.  The Taylor NT system is an engineering marvel.  I don't know enough to debate the tonal implications.

Jim D

If the reason to do anything is only because "we've always done it this way" we'd all still be  driving horse and buggies. Innovation coupled with tradition is a good thing.

f
Larrivee L-03 w/Gotoh 381 tuners (African Mahogany/Sitka)
Collings OM2Hc (EIR/Sitka)
Schenk Ophirio (Sapele/Cedar)
Bourgeois 00 Custom (Mahogany/It. Spruce)

desaljs has it right about Taylor.   See this link for description of NT neck.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/features/ntneck/Overview.aspx

Prior to 1999 (i think) Taylor had bolt on necks but did glue the fingerboard to the top.   This was consdier a problem, hence the NT design.

On the question of tone there are so many factors that have much more impact than the neck joint, I wouldn't bother about it.

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