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Author Topic: Do3r ,D60 , difference?  (Read 2275 times)
DaveyO
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« on: September 22, 2009, 08:42:08 PM »

Can anyone tell me the difference between these 2 guitars, besides the obvious gloss and different looks.
How do they compare sonically?
Is it worth the extra bucks for the D60?
I really love the traditional look
Dave
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tadol
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 10:48:45 PM »

Really, the biggest difference is the size of the soundhole. The 60 is going to have higher grade of woods, and the slot-head, and I am not sure about the neck width, but the build details are going to be almost identical. I think you would have to play them side by side to determine if the price difference is warranted to you sonically, but aesthetically, the -60s are incredibly beautiful -

Tad
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dbirchett
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 11:37:42 PM »

Tad, I don't doubt you but I thought that the 50 ajd 60 had a different bracing pattern -- more Martiny. Does it use the standard Larrivee bracing pattern with a Clarence White soundhole?
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Don

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 11:43:59 PM »

I've only played one D-60, but it was amazing.  More bass response than the D03r.
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BenF
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 01:26:53 AM »

Tad, I don't doubt you but I thought that the 50 ajd 60 had a different bracing pattern -- more Martiny. Does it use the standard Larrivee bracing pattern with a Clarence White soundhole?

This has been discussed before.  Is the bracing not just shifted slightly to accommodate the larger soundhole, hence 'forward shifted'?  Sounds fancy, but isn't really very significant.  Correct me if I am wrong. 

The primary differences are looks (and appointments) and the size of the soundhole.  They do look very pretty though.
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bluesman67
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 06:15:25 AM »

I don't see an enlarged soundhole changing the tonal balance to favor the low end the way the description suggests.  I do believe thought, that it would increase the sound and make everytying louder across the tonal range.  One thing is for sure, they are great sounding guitars.
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 08:21:07 AM »

I stand sit corrected.


Shutting up now.
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Don

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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 08:23:43 AM »

I don't see an enlarged soundhole changing the tonal balance to favor the low end the way the description suggests.  I do believe thought, that it would increase the sound and make everytying louder across the tonal range.  One thing is for sure, they are great sounding guitars.

It will shift the resonant frequency higher in pitch. The guitar will seem louder to the player but I doubt the overall volume will change much; though the volume could go either way, the soundhole being enlarged could (and will at a certain point) decrease the volume.

Here's a link with some measurements concerning the differences between an OM in a 3 series and traditional: http://www.larriveeforum.com/smf/index.php?topic=24141.0
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obe-wan
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 08:31:19 AM »

The 60 is going to have higher grade of woods, and the slot-head
Tad


Tad, the D-60 has a paddle or solid head stock. Maybe you where thinking of the SD-60?

Cheers, Scott.
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tadol
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 10:27:42 AM »

Thats right - paddle head - I was imagining SD-60.

The bracing question is interesting because it shows how marketing can be used.  If you're promoting it, it's "forward shifted bracing", if you're building, they're just moved so you don't end up with the braces running through the sound hole.

I'd love to play an OM-60 to hear the difference - even better, a 12 fret OM-60 - Hmmmmmmmmm drool

Tad
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BenF
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 10:43:20 AM »

Although my forum III is the best guitar I have played, an OM-50 i played is a close second.  it was a much nicer instrument than my OM-03, although I couldn't put my finger on exactly why.  It just sounded fuller.  I still love my OM-03 though, and the OM-50 wasn't worth 3 times the £££ in my opinion.
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gitnoob
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 11:17:57 AM »

FWIW, I just compared the bracing in my 1993 D-50 to my 2002 OM-19.    The bracing pattern is the same, and I couldn't detect any significant "shifting."    But there are differences.

The D-50 had the upper bout portion of the X-brace shaved to a fairly narrow thickness, while the OM-19 looked to be the full thickness.

There's also some "flat" bracing used in both guitars.    I don't know what they are -- tone bars?    Not quite as thick (deep) as the bridge plate.   Anyway, those are more narrow on the D-50 than they are on the OM-19.

No idea if these differences are due to normal build variability or if they are design differences....

Also, I should note that the D-50 sounds *much* better.   bigrin
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 12:00:05 PM »


The bracing question is interesting because it shows how marketing can be used.  If you're promoting it, it's "forward shifted bracing", if you're building, they're just moved so you don't end up with the braces running through the sound hole.

Except that Larrivee's traditional series is rear shifted. They use the term 'shifted bracing' because they want you to think 'forward shifted'. I think slightly less of Larrivee for doing that because it was deceptive, or if not deceptive then it was ignorant.
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tadol
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 01:47:30 PM »

My bad - shifted bracing - but I don't think Larrivee advertises it as anything at all. I specifically asked them about bracing, and they were very up front and said they use almost the exact same bracing on every guitar, from parlor to baritone. There have been some adjustments over the years, but nothing radical. It works - so why change it -

Tad

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gitnoob
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 01:49:50 PM »

What are those flat bracing elements called?    The flat pairs perpendicular to the X bracing in the lower bout?
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 02:24:26 PM »

I've also got a 93 or 94 D-50, which was a rosewood guitar. Mr. Fancy-pants, show-me-up Gitnoob's is Braz with lots of inlay. My skid-row version is tastefully and elegantly understated, with EIR. My understanding is that the bracing, while the same, is shifted a bit to accommodate the enlarged soundhole. I agree with Gitnoob's take that these are the forerunners of the current D-60, and apparently share many features.
I've owned two 03Rs as well: a D and an L. Obviously the 50 has a more expensive, gloss finish. There's an obvious cosmetic difference. Not sure if there's a sound difference. I heard JCL say that he believes the gloss eventually sounds better, but that the satin opens up faster. Although I now own the higher model, I'm not convinced that the finish adds to sound quality or that the woods are of higher quality. This is not intended as a slur on the higher model. The woods are beautiful. But I thought the 03 woods were also exquisite, especially on the D. I've read that wood is mostly graded for cosmetics, so it's a subjective take anyway.
I love dreads most of all, and while I never bonded with the L--kind of a sacrilege here--it was a great guitar. But that 03R was fabulous, everything I liked about Martins and more. It had a great growl, but more midrange than a D-28. It probably ranked with higher-end Martin standard models that cost a lot more. I'm surprised that it's changed hands a couple of times since I traded it toward the D-50, and the eventual owner may be reading this and can confirm. I only traded it b/e the 50 had a neck that worked better for me.
I do love the D-50, and consider it the superior of just about any dread I've heard, especially lefties. And the first time I heard it, the owner brought along his HD-28, and two customs. I thought the Larrivee was at least the equal of any, although the Burkett was the loudest guitar I've ever heard.
The D-50 is loud, with amazing clarity. I've never heard notes so distinctly, even when strumming (which is mostly what I do). I don't think the current D-60 neck is the same; I believe the newer model is narrower at the nut, and with a thicker profile. I'd guess the D-60 sounds similar, which is a good thing.
But not necessarily better than the D-03R. Since I bought the 03 new and the 50 used, the price difference was not as great as if both were new. Ergonomics being equal, I might have stayed with the D-03R.
Strictly a matter of taste. Whether or not it's worth it is entirely up to you. I'd rank quality and workmanship as equal--although I kind of prefer that all my Larrivees were made in Vancouver ( just my opinion). There's no wrong choice here. My point is that the 60 is not a better guitar because it has a higher number or because it costs more. It's a better guitar if you like its look, sound and feel more.
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jeremy3220
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2009, 09:34:58 PM »

My bad - shifted bracing - but I don't think Larrivee advertises it as anything at all.

It's advertised on their website as a feature.

What are those flat bracing elements called?    The flat pairs perpendicular to the X bracing in the lower bout?

finger braces or fan braces.

My understanding is that the bracing, while the same, is shifted a bit to accommodate the enlarged soundhole.

That's right but I'm pretty sure it wasn't necessary.

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obe-wan
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 11:35:02 PM »

Although my forum III is the best guitar I have played, an OM-50 i played is a close second. 

Gday Ben, I agree with you on the OM-50. I played one recently when I was looking for my 40th bday present, it gave the Martin a really good run for its money, and had it been an OM-60, my rosewood accustomed ears may have said "buy the OM-60", instead of 'Buy the Martin OM-21".  But thats another story......

Cheers, Scott.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 06:33:55 PM »

DaveyO. Yes there is a difference  that is why I traded that D-03r to you after I got my D-60. I had both of them for for 3 or 4 months and got to A/B them with myself playing them and hearing other people playing them.  Here is my take The D-60 while still having the Larivee sound and balance,  had a little more bass than the D-03R more volume, And you noticed the difference in volume more when you would play it, it sounded louder to the player and easier to hear. One other thing which is hard to describe but let me put it this way. The sound seems to get out of the guitar quicker it seems more immediate. if that makes any sense. all in all not a huge difference but a sound/volume/ and look that I like better. Would I buy one new.... probably would not pay the up charge. but I got mine used for $ 900.00 in very good shape. Good hunting to you on you endless gas fed journey. Flathead
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 07:14:06 PM »

This may or may not be helpful, but there has been some research done on the phenomenon of larger vs. smaller sound hole.  The Larrivees could be an aberration, but in general it has been found in acoustic guitars that:

""In the end, we learn that soundhole size affects the calculated resonant frequency and thus, guitar designers and manufacturers must find a soundhole size that will adequately resonate all of the frequencies of the 6 strings. A larger radius soundhole will amplify/resonate high frequency tones, while a smaller radius soundhole will amplify mid-to-low frequency tones.""

Here is the study from which the quote is pulled, along with graphs and more analytical comments:



http://hal9000.ps.uci.edu/Weber%20H90%20Physics%20Paper.pdf
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